Stone Age Gender Bender: Was 5,000-Year-Old Skeleton Gay?

Originally posted by wayno

Originally posted by thegasface
reply to post by wayno

 

if they kept it locked away in the closet how would you even know they existed. what your tlking is hypothetical and just theory. what im talking from is numbers.

I know because I am one of them. While I got out of the closet in my early 20's (I am now in my 60's) I've talked to many, many men over the years who went thru that experience. I know at least 6 or 7 men my age who got married and had children before coming out. Most didn't come out of their closet until late in their 50's. One of my friends does male-to-male massage. Most of his clients are married men. My info doesn't come from books. It comes from knowing people personally.

I appreciate your candour. This thread is a pretty good example of the manner in which some aspects of society still deal with anything other than male/female relationships. This particular discussion has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with anthropology. I really wish certain folks would come to the realisation that respecting an individual's sexual orientation is not equivalent to embracing it.

I'm straight. I don't get homosexuality...but then I don't need to. I don't get Conservatives, either.

But Anthro is an endlessly fascinating exploration of what it is to be human.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Having lived as long as I have, I've come to realize that life has always been somewhat similar to the way it is now in terms of human relationships. Interactions between family, friends and community were not all that different when I was kid than they are now. Sure, the material stuff, the technology and gizmos are more prolific, but love is still love, as is fear, or is a sense of belonging; whether to family, neighbourhood or country. The things that really matter to us, as humans, haven't changed.

So I extrapolate in my mind sometimes and imagine what life was like way back in cave-man days and I picture the same cast of characters we have today: the leader, the rebel, the goof ball, the athlete, the compassionate one; etc. etc. I can't imagine that relationships were all that different from today a mere 5,000 years ago. That there were homosexuals is without doubt.

Whether this guy was one; well, we just don't know, but it is certainly possible. I still want to know how that played out in the society they had. Surely it couldn't be any worse than in the American bible belt, or Saudi Arabia today -- probably better is my guess.

Originally posted by wayno
So I extrapolate in my mind sometimes and imagine what life was like way back in cave-man days and I picture the same cast of characters we have today: the leader, the rebel, the goof ball, the athlete, the compassionate one; etc. etc. I can't imagine that relationships were all that different from today a mere 5,000 years ago. That there were homosexuals is without doubt.

Yep - - and at 65 I agree. Also that the world over - - no matter what the culture - - people want the same thing. Family - means of support - communication - a place to call home - - Love - etc. Cracked me up watching a documentary about some very remote tribe - I think in the Amazon - only a couple white men had ever penetrated. The grampa was working on carving a bow or something - - and the grandkids were running through and around the open walled hut. The grampa finally got up an left saying: "You kids are driving me crazy". LOL

Anyway - - the only hate I see for homosexuals comes from religion. There may be a God - - but religion is Man-Made - - - reflecting man's fears and prejudices.

Originally posted by wayno
That there were homosexuals is without doubt.

Whether this guy was one; well, we just don't know, but it is certainly possible. I still want to know how that played out in the society they had. Surely it couldn't be any worse than in the American bible belt, or Saudi Arabia today -- probably better is my guess.

As anthropologists note, in many societies there was an accepted third gender that was considered neither/nor, and that is what the 'gay caveman' attempts to address. Indications are that such individuals often had special or shamanistic status.

("Gay Caveman"...there is a journalistic dumbing-down so insulting that even the mentally handicapped ought to take offence as it would seem to mock them in the very same breath.)

Here's a good take on the archaeology of 'third-gender graves' in the context of the 'gay caveman': ancientbodies.wordpress.com...

Originally posted by Varemia
reply to post by thegasface

 

It's not a caveman... 5000 years ago, humans were developing agriculture and living in more complicated societies. It's when the Egyptian Empire was in its early years. This going on about cavemen and gay agendas is just stupid. Do your research and you'll understand that it's extremely normal and expected for there to be people outside of the gender norm.

Ok. Not Caveman but a civilized piper. What difference does it make now after the homosexual individual engaged in homosexual sexual activities with both rich and poor alike some 5000 years ago? So was Socrates and other greek and roman elites. Do we see discussion about that? The motive is to push the Gay Rights into the minds of people to accept them as normal and healthy(which it is not) part of a society.

I guess this is just another example of my ignorance but:

1) How can you tell if someone was gay by their bones?

2) After someone has been dead for several thousand years who cares?

Originally posted by wayno
reply to post by thegasface

 

There are not any more gays people now than before. They've always been around, but kept their gayness locked away in the closet. You just didn't see or recognize them. They were more apt to live a double life back in the day. Now more of them are open about their sexuality. That is all.

They aren't all out yet either, so it is probably going to look to you like they are multiplying somehow, but that is just not the case. Lots of people will continue to live double lives, however, just like before. Lots, and lots of so-called straight boys go for some discreet homosexual activity from time to time, and that will also be the case.
So be it. Not everyone has the guts to be honest all the time.

Well so many things existed in the past. So did Drugs. Can we go ahead and legalize them all just because they have existed for ever (Opium atleast) ?

With the law that allows same sex marriage and raise child with same sex as parents, dont you think a mother figure or a father figure is just as important to a child to be raised with a average nuclear family values? Why encourage the same sex parenthood? Dont you think it will imbalance the gender ratio in a society/country to successfully progress and provide the resources it needs within the next few decades or century? Russia and Japan are few countries with imbalanced male to female ratios.

IMBALANCE1
IMBALANCE2
IMBALANCE3
IMBALANCE4

reply to post by hp1229


You seem to be mixing up a bunch of unrelated stuff together with the result being just a mess and nothing conclusive. Sorry,

Drugs has nothing to do with homosexuality per se. Neither does the Asian penchant for boy babies and getting rid of girl babies. It is a different matter altogether.

Having both a male and female parent figure for role modeling is great; provided that the individuals are in fact good role models to start with. A drunken wife beater is not much of a model. On the other hand a couple who unite as a family usually represent complementary types -- you could almost say one models a typical masculine role while the other a more feminine one -- regardless of the actual sex.

In every family one would hope that aside from providing appropriate models, parents would also encourage their children to be themselves -- to show their particular inclinations and not just be clones of one parent or another. That is why happy, successful gay people can and usually are raised having straight parents, and good straight people can come from families led by gay parents.

The sexuality of children is not directly determined by their parent's sexuality. Gay people mostly have straight kids and straight people 10% of the time have gay kids. That is just the way it is None of this has any bearing on the ratio of men to women in society.

I'd be more concerned about chemicals in food and plastics if you are concerned about birth rates.

Study: Same-Sex Parents Raise Well-Adjusted Kids Researchers Say Children Who Grow Up in Households With Gay Parents Have Normal Self-Esteem

WebMD Health News
Reviewed by Louise Chang, MD

Oct.12, 2005 (Washington) -- Children growing up in same-sex parental households do not necessarily have differences in self-esteem, gender identity, or emotional problems from children growing up in heterosexual parent homes.

"There are a lot of children with at least one gay or lesbian parent," says Ellen C. Perrin, MD, professor of pediatrics at Tufts University School of Medicine in Boston. She revealed the findings at the American Academy of Pediatrics Conference and Exhibition.

Between 1 million and 6 million children in the U.S. are being reared by committed lesbian or gay couples, she says. Children being raised by same-sex parents were either born to a heterosexual couple, adopted, or conceived through artificial insemination.

"The vast consensus of all the studies shows that children of same-sex parents do as well as children whose parents are heterosexual in every way," she tells WebMD. "In some ways children of same-sex parents actually may have advantages over other family structures."

www.webmd.com...

Bah, this caveman was probably a hermaphrodite, maybe the bone structure the scientists are analyzing say "male", but the flesh and blood the caveman's relatives knew said "female". Maybe this is the earliest Brazilian Shemale burial on record. Maybe it was "ladies only" night at the cemetary and some poor bastard wanted that free burial...

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
Bah, this caveman was probably a hermaphrodite, maybe the bone structure the scientists are analyzing say "male", but the flesh and blood the caveman's relatives knew said "female". Maybe this is the earliest Brazilian Shemale burial on record. Maybe it was "ladies only" night at the cemetary and some poor bastard wanted that free burial...

Maybe - - still no reason to exclude homosexual. Does it personally bother you?

I think "we" have already established Third Gender covers a wide range.

reply to post by Annee


Not at all, in fact don't Native Americans have a term "Berdache" or 'two-spirit people' for 'gender variation' among their tribe members? (actually the term is European in origin).

Two-Spirit

I haven't actually read through this entire post so this may have been posted already. I mention the 'Berdache' as an indicator that other (in this case N. Americans) have at least acknowledged and even found a place for within their society for 'gender variation'.

BTW please don't think of my brevity in my earlier post as hostility towards homosexuals. This discovery is probably a good indicator that Berdaches existed in many primitive societies. But it's all endless speculation as to whether this particular cave man was 'gay', or filling the role of a female/male for spiritual needs.

Here are some images of "Squaw Jim" - he was in fact married himself to a squaw; Squaw Jim. American Indian Berdache.

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
BTW please don't think of my brevity in my earlier post as hostility towards homosexuals.

No prob.

I didn't really - - I kind of felt it was your posting style.

I'm not sure I've read any of your posts before. I do try to get a feel for posting style first - - before engaging.

Originally posted by wayno
reply to post by hp1229

 

You seem to be mixing up a bunch of unrelated stuff together with the result being just a mess and nothing conclusive. Sorry,

Drugs has nothing to do with homosexuality per se. Neither does the Asian penchant for boy babies and getting rid of girl babies. It is a different matter altogether.

Having both a male and female parent figure for role modeling is great; provided that the individuals are in fact good role models to start with. A drunken wife beater is not much of a model. On the other hand a couple who unite as a family usually represent complementary types -- you could almost say one models a typical masculine role while the other a more feminine one -- regardless of the actual sex.

In every family one would hope that aside from providing appropriate models, parents would also encourage their children to be themselves -- to show their particular inclinations and not just be clones of one parent or another. That is why happy, successful gay people can and usually are raised having straight parents, and good straight people can come from families led by gay parents.

The sexuality of children is not directly determined by their parent's sexuality. Gay people mostly have straight kids and straight people 10% of the time have gay kids. That is just the way it is None of this has any bearing on the ratio of men to women in society.

I'd be more concerned about chemicals in food and plastics if you are concerned about birth rates.

I agree that not the entire articles relate to Gender Imbalance due to Homosexuality but it is one of the less studied subjects. Hopefully the society will feel the after affects of the Gay Marriage laws in the countries where they are legal.

Originally posted by Annee
Study: Same-Sex Parents Raise Well-Adjusted Kids Researchers Say Children Who Grow Up in Households With Gay Parents Have Normal Self-Esteem

WebMD Health News
Reviewed by Louise Chang, MD

Oct.12, 2005 (Washington) -- Children growing up in same-sex parental households do not necessarily have differences in self-esteem, gender identity, or emotional problems from children growing up in heterosexual parent homes.

"There are a lot of children with at least one gay or lesbian parent," says Ellen C. Perrin, MD, professor of pediatrics at Tufts University School of Medicine in Boston. She revealed the findings at the American Academy of Pediatrics Conference and Exhibition.

Between 1 million and 6 million children in the U.S. are being reared by committed lesbian or gay couples, she says. Children being raised by same-sex parents were either born to a heterosexual couple, adopted, or conceived through artificial insemination.

"The vast consensus of all the studies shows that children of same-sex parents do as well as children whose parents are heterosexual in every way," she tells WebMD. "In some ways children of same-sex parents actually may have advantages over other family structures."

www.webmd.com...

edit on 14-4-2011 by Annee because: (no reason given)

I would take any studies conducted and research papers published along with MSM news with a grain of salt.

Further studies need to be conducted. As I mentioned earlier, it is too early to see the side effects of a openly gay society and its future with Gender Imbalance. Most of these studies publish something one day in favor and then in non-favor the next. Eggs are good someday and somedays they are not. Alcohol is good someday and someday it is not. How many times have you seen such stupid news on the internet and on TV news channels? One cannot trust the scientific community completely as they're also infiltrated with political propogandists. Overall I feel that if there were benefits, societies around the world would have accepted it looooooooooong time ago rather than embracing as a new age idea. It all has everything to do with Vote Bank Politics in my opinion.

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
reply to post by Annee

 

Not at all, in fact don't Native Americans have a term "Berdache" or 'two-spirit people' for 'gender variation' among their tribe members? (actually the term is European in origin).

Two-Spirit

I haven't actually read through this entire post so this may have been posted already. I mention the 'Berdache' as an indicator that other (in this case N. Americans) have at least acknowledged and even found a place for within their society for 'gender variation'.

BTW please don't think of my brevity in my earlier post as hostility towards homosexuals. This discovery is probably a good indicator that Berdaches existed in many primitive societies. But it's all endless speculation as to whether this particular cave man was 'gay', or filling the role of a female/male for spiritual needs.

Here are some images of "Squaw Jim" - he was in fact married himself to a squaw; Squaw Jim. American Indian Berdache.

It can work and it has been working in many societies around the world but not as a mainstream system of marriage. Gays have existed for a long time in Eastern and Western societies. Its the idea of Gay Marriage that has taken off into a different tangent which I do not believe existed in ancient times. American Indians are just 1 society that people can possibly reflect back upon for Gay Couples. I have nothing against gay people but research and studies should also be performed to see how and why people become gay (Biological vs Psychological).

There are people who are genetically and skeletally male. They look female. Their bodies lack the ability to understand the androgenizing effects telling their body that it is male.

The "default" gender is female.

There are models who are this - they are tall, leggy, with low body fat, slight curves/feminization. They are genetic males, in bodies that never developed into males.

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
Bah, this caveman was probably a hermaphrodite, maybe the bone structure the scientists are analyzing say "male", but the flesh and blood the caveman's relatives knew said "female". Maybe this is the earliest Brazilian Shemale burial on record. Maybe it was "ladies only" night at the cemetary and some poor bastard wanted that free burial...

That was hilarious.

reply to post by hp1229


Here's a little something to think about (I don't have a lot of time to post, so this is all I'll be able to add. It's just a link on wikipedia, a brief history of same-sex unions in history).

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by hp1229

I would take any studies conducted and research papers published along with MSM news with a grain of salt.

Further studies need to be conducted.

Uh huh - - I chose this one from Web-MD on purpose.

You responded exactly as I expected you to respond. It wouldn't have mattered where the study came from.

There are other studies and all studies show similar results. Some studies show that children of Lesbian couples - - are better adjusted then those of man/woman parents.

Studies are ongoing.