Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Sinnthia
Sinnthia, you make some very good arguments, and you are perfectly justified in narrowing the argument about Obama down to the very specific, relavent
points, and you are correct that I have not addressed those directly enough. The fact is, I am not a rabid birther, and I am exhausted of the
argument. I have made better arguments, with more specific quotes, links, and docs in other threads, but I do not feel like rehashing it again. This
is an argument that neither side can win definitively.
I believe you may have made better arguments in better times and I can see how this can get exhausting. I kind of hope then you can see the kind of
disdain this argument fosters on a place like ATS. All politics aside, even you have to admit that whether there is something to it or not, there is a
TON of BS tossed in the mix. The birther threads look like Billy Meiyer threads to me with a few decent arguments and then a ton of lies that trip
over themselves all sourced back to Michael Horn, I mean WND, I mean Farrah. The admitted birther liar -
WND admits lying....
Shameless self promotion aside. Let me show you what it looks
like to me.
He needs to show his birth certificate!
Ok, his original long form birth certificate!
Ok, well it doesnt matter because his grandmother said he was born in Kenya.
Ok, well that doesn't matter anyway because his father was a British subject.
Ok, well that doesn't matter anyway because he became an Indonesian citizen.
Ok, well why can't we just see it? Does it say he is a Muslim?
Now in between each of those questions I find little more than blatant lies and a ton of misinformation. The most simple and I suppose most innocent
is that people insist on seeing something without bothering to find out what it is they are looking for, or even looking at. I guess that goes hand in
hand with the people that demand to see anything. Why? Are you going to personally confirm it is not a forgery? Are you going to confirm it is
standard? Considering so few birthers seem to understand birth certificates at all, I find it doubtful they will know what to do with what they want
when they finally get it. The BC being online all this time only backs that up.
This sort of stuff, it intersests me from a sociological standpoint but at the same time, I do get a bit angry when I come to ATS and see one subject
so full of lies and easily checked missinformation not only finds a home, but is fed well and watered daily.
Today, I might be off my game a little, I was posting each time I walked through the family room, while a party is going on around the pool,
deck, and kitchen. I have also had quite a few beers, and quite a lot of bikini distraction.
I read ATS a lot. I do not post until I am off my game
. I find it more fun that way. Which makes
I do commend your argument style.
A frightening yet very appreciated compliment. Like I said before, you seem to rational for this argument. You make it hard to figure out how to deal
with you. Then there is that whole mod thing.
One thing you have changed my mind about today is this: If the short form is an official document, and it officially certifies that he was
born in Hawaii, then we have to accept it.
This is important right here. I am not about to say that it ends every birther argument dead in its tracks but it certainly highlights why I feel this
issue needs to stop running in circles and be broken down, piece by piece.
This is not his originally issued long form birth certificate.
This is not his original long form, vaulted birth registration.
This is in fact a birth certificate.
We need to get that argument out of the way and move on to the next one. A lot of people still claim to have seen no BC but even many birthers
acknowledge now they were in error without admitting it. Instead of acknowledging the short form is in fact a birth certificate, they have started
more using the "original long form" argument. Why would they do that if the short form was still not a BC anway?
People that do claim it is not a BC do only that. They claim
it is not a BC. They never have a reason or an argument for it. The only one I
have ever even seen is "it doesn't look like mine" which invalidates my BC as well as my driver's license since those look different in different
In fact, each and every state has changed it's own form more than once. Just google a state BC. You will see a variety of different forms. So can we
still say..."it doesn't look like mine?" I am willing to bet not one birther has the same BC as their grandparents. So where do we go with that
The argument that has fallen by the wayside but Trump is trying to reinvigorate is the whole "COLB" nonsense. The reason this fails in so many ways is
because of the different titles found on different state birth certificates. Anyone that understands what the wrods mean, should be able to get around
Certificate of live birth, Certification of birth, Certificate of birth, etc. These are all titles found on...
wait for it...
BIRTH CERTIFICATES. It is really quite simple. A "certificate of live birth" just in English means a certified documentation of that live birth. A
birth certificate is a certified documentation of that live birth. Then there is the simple fact that Hawaii is hardly the only state to issue short
forms instead of long forms. I live in NY. I have a short form. I have had a short from as long as I can remember and I have even had to replace it
once. I had to apply for my BC and this is what I got. A short form titled, "Certification of birth." I got my passport, I hope I can be president. NY
will not issue a long form. They do not do that anymore. What would someone like me do?
But more on that later.
If we don't accept it, then it means we don't trust the state of Hawaii. You have convinced me that we should accept the short form, but
with this caveat, if we have to accept it for POTUS, then every Federal and State agency also has to accept it. We cannot have different sets of
rules for different folks.
Hmmmm....Something tells me it is not really that easy for me to convince anyone of anything but I believe BH you are an honest guy.
But with this caveat. We do actually have to have different sets of rules for different people. We have to have rules for people that have no access
to a long form. You cannot exclude the populations of entire states just because their state no longer provides them a long form.
BUT, the fact that this argument is still raging in the press and political circles, means that we have an obvious gap in our procedure. I
believe we need a specific set of published guidelines, which documents are acceptable, who is responsible for receiving those documents, and the time
frame that it must be completed in. If a short form is acceptable, then fine.
I can only agree with you a little here. I can agree that maybe something needs to be done to prevent this kind of rumor mongering from being able to
foster but I honestly think the best thing for that would be education. If more people knew what a birth certificate actually was, we never would have
had to have that part of the argument. In this day and age where most of those people are posting online, the fact that they cared too little to
educate themselves says more to me about the people than the process.
I mean when you look passed what you might consider legitimate arguments and see all the nonsense being spewed, do you really want politics to cater
to the mentally lazy, the liars, and the haters. Maybe that is needed but I cannot help but instead hope people will get smarter or try thinking
things through more. I know, your idea of reform is probably far more realistic.
But...I am also stuck on the 'its still in the media' thing. I do not feel that actually gives the story any credit. David Icke still sells his
million page books about the blood drinking lizard shape shifters that control everything in their 3000 year long quest to enslave us for our gold but
I have a hard time feeling that exposes a glaring hole in our middle earth security. Likewise, I feel any kind of trash lingers in the media. Look at
Charlie Sheen. I have a hard time believing he was getting so much air time because people supported the things he was saying. We watched and we
talked but because we are a masochistic people that love to dwell on the insidiously absurd.
I just got crap in another thread because I admitted I watch Jersey Shore. I also admitted it is really trashy TV. I know people love to rag on me for
even saying it, let alone actually doing it. But I need a good laugh now and then and shutting my brain off is hard. Jersey Shore works. The point is,
that while I am certain most people that read that rolled their eyes in disgust, there is a 4th season and 2 spinoffs coming. Why is such crap not
only lingering in the media but growing? Because like it or not, we are messed up in the head with what we like to talk about, watch, etc. I may be
wrong but the ratings would suggest otherwise. I am actually watching PBS right now but ya know. I like my trash and I like my pork rhinds and I know
I am not alone. Being popular, current, talked about, all that stuff does nothing to convince me it has any meaning. I am still looking for batboy
because even he still gets mention so there must be something to it.
I honestly feel like the concerns you highlight have been addressed just that some people refuse to accept that. It comes across to me like trying to
tell someone that we are alive but no matter what proof you offer, they refuse to accept it. At some point you have to feel the problem might not be
with the show but with the audience.
I am a little tipsy and sunburnt right now, but I will research the REAL ID act tomorrow. Perhaps the guidelines in that act will satisfy
everyone if they are adopted by all agencies?
Please let us know what you find out. Especially when it comes to things like if I were to apply for one of these positions you speak of in your
state. I will never be able to get them a long form birth certificate from NY. The only people that can are older than me and very lucky to have never
lost it. The excludes a lot of New Yorkers. This is why I ask, when you say that the short from was not enough because they also had to submit to lie
detector tests, I am confused if you are saying a long form gets you out of those tests or if the point was a birth certificate, long or short, is
just not enough rendering that argument moot? See, that is where that whole (I think he is too smart and perhaps too honest to make that argument, yet
he is...) comes back into my head.
Thanks for taking the time to calm me down. I have wanted to have a real, rational, fact based, calm conversation with a birther for a very long time
but I kind of gave up that hope and decided to just enjoy them. Many birther threads on ATS end with me asking someone to prove one of their claims.
They just stop posting there. So I read lies and missinformation, then ask someone to convince me with facts and they run. It kind of sets my mind up
a certain way and I appreciate you tossing in this actually productive feeling speed bump.
edit on 12-4-2011 by Sinnthia because: (no reason