The esoteric is still exoteric!

Originally posted by OnTheLevel213

Originally posted by Rhebefree

So TPTB are bankers and politicians and whatnots?

Yes.

(So if what you are saying is true, Im thinking that I will have to conceed that possibly masonry is...... guiltless, wow your good)

Arent many of them mason members?

Probably not (I certainly haven't seen any Masons who were bank presidents, and I live in Jacksonville, more or less the banking capital of Florida).

(True.... I guess Im going to have to decide whether you are lying or not, since I am me and I take it at face value that most people are honest, I assume your not..... Which would mean that masonry itself is not trying to take over the world....... I just choked a bit there)

I really shouldnt be talking to you you know, your throwing my whole upper masons are TPTB minions out with the bath water

It's times like these I wish I had a Fu Manchu to twist devilishly as I whispered "Good...good..."

(

Ahha! Tricked I knew it!!

)

I meant recent in terms of HISTORY, didnt I say that? Im certain I did.....

There hasn't really been any secrecy in the speculative days; I believe Masonic Light has an expose dated to 1717. In the operative days, Masons were secretive because genuine secrets of architecture were held, and having them in public hands would mean the end of their ability to earn a decent wage.

(Fair enough I guess... If masonry started up as a way to share secrets of architecture and stone masonry then why did it continue long after stone masonry was not needed..... Are you like just a bunch of builders and architects or something?)

It was a serious question, when I first discovered that there was an evil plot involving a shadow group it was through Alex Jones

Your first mistake.

(Whats wrong with Alex Jones? He's angry.... I'm angry...... I think a lot more people need to be angry, like Maynard says anger can be used as a tool, not like hate, hate's just destructive. I think maybe thats why so many of us conspiracy believers are just not open to the possibility that there is nothing sinister about masons, we are just so angry at the manipulation and corruption and in-equality and we know that it is a secretive group that is causing it all, I guess masonry is an easy target something that provides a face to what we think TPTB must be....... I dont know)

and when I googled him to find out more about him it came up with that whole Bohemian Grove shindig, and I read that many prominent bankers, politicians, corporation leaders, and the POPE were there

I'm willing to be wrong, but I'm pretty sure no Pope has ever been to the Grove.

( Maybe not, I just did a search and didnt find anything about a pope attending so I dont know where I got that from, I apologise)

and that they were all involved with masonry

Untrue.

(So masons have no ties to Bohemian grove, tri-lateral commision, Bildeberg? Are you sure about that? This site is interesting Bohemian grove I dont agree with everything on it, but it gives good info on bohemian grove among other things, its a christian site, but since your protestant you will probably agree with it)

I know that when it started up the catholic church raged a war against them

Not necessarily true. There have been harmonious times between the Catholic Church and Freemasonry, before it became organized and speculative, and thus a threat to the Church's theological monopoly.

(Ok)

but times have changed I would not be surprised at all to learn that the Pope is in cahoots with the big wigs......

I know I'm in the minority, but I'm starting to believe that the Pope is a figurehead in actual Vatican administration. It doesn't make sense to me that a bunch of career theologians and ministers are suddenly promoted to head of state with very little actual training.

(It wouldnt surprise me, the president is just a figurehead in the whitehouse, the prime-minister is just a figurehead in parliment, question is who is really behind the figure heads?)

As for the anti-masonic stance, when did our leaders, including our religous ones, start being honest with us? Because I forgot the memo

True, but that's not a license to be dishonest about them (which you haven't been, I concede).

(Misinformed and jumping the gun seems to be my thing!!)

I find that really interesting, werent masons persecuted by the church when they first started up?

By the Catholic Church, yes, but the average Mason is Protestant for obvious reasons.

(Ok, I suppose if an athiest wanted to join a lodge he could always start his own up, Would masonry allow that? An atheist chapter, or womens only chapter?)

Thats true, but it depends on what your working towards and why, you talk about a universal league of MEN for the benefit of man, was this the concept that brought the original masons together or has it just evolved to that

A little of both, honestly.

(So are you like the church, going out on missions all over the world to convert and Masonize the world so we will all become better men..... Except women who dont need masonizing, why is that?

If masons, and there are plenty of them, really are just trying to make the world a better place then why are they so silent about global issues? Why dont we see them in the news valiantly taking down TPTB?

Freemasonry has no way of implementing such a thing, and because "changing the world" in such a manner is far more complicated than you imagine here.

(Possibly, but it seems simple to me, take an axe to the root of suffering, which is money, valueless peices of paper with no use except to raise up those who should not be raised up and oppress the many..... Burn it down)

The same could be asked of the vatican and the world church organisations, the fact is that money makes this society go round so naturally those with the most should be setting an example for those who have only what they can afford from week to week

You mean, say, donating $2 million a day?

(I never said that you dont do good things, I'm talking about why cant these people (who I now understand, if you have been truthful, are not masons, see I believed that most masons were of the elite those families of old who have a never ending supply of rescources) who have it all make the world a better place by being an example to the rest of us and ending suffering. If masons are simply men who have worked their way up in life, starting at the bottom or in the middle or even if they were upper class and managed to make the right financial decisions and through masonry and/or religion are helping out those who are less fortunate then my beef is not with them, in fact I applaud you if you are managing to shine a ray of sunshine into someone elses hard life without trying to "sufficiently spiritualise" them first, but the way to end suffering is not as complicated as we seem to think.

Yes could is a far-reaching word I should have said, "are probably"

Explain how.

(Just like any religion, steer the organisation the right way, make sure only those who are useful to your agenda get in, then when the time is right use them as a banner to carry out your final plans or paint them as the root of all evil as a deflection while you carry out your real agenda (The latter could very well be happening now, if conspiracy theorists have it all wrong about masonry))

Not if masonry was just a front, a way to keep good men in line while you did the real dirty behind closed doors

How would such a "front" operate? Why use Freemasonry and not the million things that are more popular and profitable?

(Like I said above)

so the whole architect of the universe concept did not originate with masons?

Actually, the origins of the term are Christian.

(So it is!! Ah, google, I think I need to take everything I think I know and just google it to make sure that what I know is actually knowledge

)

but you said you are not taught, or disscuss, god stuff.... So whats the problem??

I told you the extent of the involvement of God in Masonry. That's still too far for the honest participation of an atheist.

But I thought there are no lessons about God??

I think we're in disagreement as to what constitutes a lesson about God. I don't think "serve God" constitutes a lesson.

(Ok, but what if god doesnt want service? What if god just wants us to simply stop allowing suffering and evil men (and women) their thrones?)

I hope I havnt been condescending, I hate it when people do that to me, I havent have I?

No, you're pretty innocent of it. My remark was toward the average opinion of the conspiracy theorist.

(Yeah I have noticed that many conspiracy theorists seem to think we have one over on those who dont buy into conspiracies, I mean its nice to think that we are somehow "in the know" but at the end of the day we too could very well be being played like fiddles..... Its a sobering thought, as for them condescending masons, well again it could simply be due to needing to name that which we cannot see but know to exist)

Its hard trying to get to the truth of things when there is so much "evidence" out there, whats that term? Hidden in plain sight? How can we be expected to not "cherry pick"

Look around here for a while and tell me what the opinion of the general public is.

(

sorry)

Yes, I see your point, we are all too gutless to stand alone against the tide, but what if we could stand together without being led? Without giving up our individuality for the hive? What if each of us could forge ahead, together without being together for the betterment of humanity, not in some future generation, but for the benefit of humanity in the here and now?

I don't see the point in waiting for humanity to fundamentally change itself instead of using our social urges for the better.

(Your right, and theres nothing wrong with being good men, I am simply expressing my frustration at the fact that humanity as a whole would rather create these elaborate theologies and philosophies and religions and groups rather than growing up and becoming responsible for the choices we make, the choices that lead to suffering. I mean doing what you do is great and all but dont you think its a bit like fighting your enemy by arming him? Like fighting fire with fire? I dont know what it is you do to help society except donating money because thats the only thing I have read masons highlight, but money and the over abundance of for some and the lack thereof for most is the problem, eliminate money from the picture and people would have the opportunity and right to really work hard to provide for their families, we would have to work with nature to produce the things we need, and it would be more equal too because then anybody could have their own home and the ability to produce their own food...... There would be an explosion of information, free energy, earths cycles, plants, truths once kept back from the general populace would be free to spread and it would be so wonderfull........
Well, in theory)

If the author is touting it as truth then yeah he does have some accountability

I never meant to imply otherwise. But when a person slaps, "hey, don't take everything here at face value" in the preface to a book, you can't really hold them accountable for when people do it (if, again, they are at all).

(True, I'll conceed on that point, but I still think people need to be carefull when they write some things, their are a lot of people out there who are gulliable and sometimes skip the pre-face..... Not me of course, no never I!)

esspecially when there are people out there seeking the truth who only have limited resources and may not understand that some things may have been written to be read by only certain people or as a joke or as a distraction....... You see its these games that certain members of certain societies play that really make me angry!!!

Once again, you describe something that isn't Masonry.

(Ok, I'll believe you aslong as your not a "Pure" blood, your not are you? Your just a regular joe like the rest of us? Can you see my paranoia meter about to explode

)

So these authors were told not to write their books?

Who in the world would tell them that?

(Cause you said before something like, "if the author was warned not to" or something like that)

Wow, responding to your replies always takes ages! And reminds me why I never took to debating in school!!

So does typing them. That's why I'm not particularly active.

(

aww, so if I shutup youll come back more often?

)

Im just trying to make sense of it all, thats all any of us can do these days I guess;
work, pay taxes, donate some money here and there, try to figure things out without looking too deeply and never mind the billions of (insert example of ultimate suffering here) because its not your fault, all your required to do is work spend and to ease your consience by joining a religion or "social betterment" group. And this my new mason buddy, is why nothing of consequence gets done.

I'll leave you to tell that to the millions of people helped by Masonic charities.

(Again, I think thats great, Im not belittling your efforts (not trying to anyway), the fact that you are trying to do something for others obviously means that your not the spawn of satan, my mistake was in thinking that masons were of those who have unlimited resources, which if you worked hard to get to where you are then you are not one of those people, I am not one of these lower income earners who are envious of or are angry/hateful of those with hard earned abundance, no I was simply trying to put a face to those who could end suffering but dont, I now understand that is not the average mason, so I thankyou if you are helping people)

Thankyou again for your time

Originally posted by illuminazislayer
reply to post by Rhebefree

 

Originally posted by Rhebefree
I dont know if the movie was true (they showed footage apparently from the true happenings) but it reinforced my growing suspision that their is a force out there posing as a God that wants us to worship it, that works through phenomena we refer to as UFO's and is spiritual or inter-dimensional in nature. I don't want to have a relationship with THAT!

Neither do I want to become a slave of inter-dimensional malevolent beings posing as our gods. But the people worshiping them in secret society lodges are deciding what is good for humanity. Satan, Lucifer, demons, jinns ET's etc. are the different names given to the same inter-dimensional beings, and the ruling elites are completely subservient to them. who is the "master" in the secret societies... watch the following video to know that.

edit on 13-4-2011 by illuminazislayer because: embedded one more video.

I didnt watch the first vid all the way through because it uses up too much data, but it makes sense to me, although I dont think the power elite would be so obvious as to worship satan, or atleast the Christian concept of satan but I agree that what they are worshipping is demons or jinns, which I find quite interesting (In a nauseating way) because I am currently reading the book 'Aradia Gospel of the witches' which I encourage anyone interested to check out, because it talks about how Diana (a goddess) sent her daughter to earth to teach witches how to poisen, curse, overthrow their elite slave lords/kings and clergy ("... In those days there were many rich and many poor. The rich made slaves of all the poor. In those days were many slaves who were cruelly treated; in every palace tortures in every castle prisoners..... Its very anti-elite and very sacriligous and quite entertaining, it makes me wonder if Witchcraft was another power to the people movement infiltrated and corrupted by the elite), and in these spells (The old time traditional spells) the gods and the jin (called gremlins and faries) were provoked in order to get them to do anything! The witch would not grovel or worship or beg but invoke, request and threaten! What if these things are meant to serve us rather than be worshipped by us? Certainly I am not about to get into demonology, its dangerous at best, but the thought that so many people think we have to worship a god, and the fact that the elite worship jins, when all we need to do is peeve them off, is halarious!! Yet if you look into modern day witchcraft or wicca, teenage girls everywhere are taught to grovel to these things, worship and lend their "energy" to them in return for services rendered, sigh so sad.
Anyway, yea, my thinking is that masonry is deffinitly not on the top of this dungheap, their at the bottom just like us slaves..... Thanks for posting the vids, when I top up my telstra I'll check them out properly.

reply to post by CIAGypsy


What you posted is true I guess, but spirituality is very different from mathematics, the point is to understand eternal truths you can receive by shutting up and lending an ear to the "Divine" spark or whatever right? By looking around us and using discernment and Divinely appointed intuition? Surely the truth can speak for itself? We dont need intercessories to interpret what god individually says to us, isnt that what Jesus was talking about? Having a relationship with God through our souls not through a temple and rabbai? Isnt it so that these "ascended" masters and spirit guides (jins?) and "Christs" are simply another form of intercessor? Another form of outward religion for those who cant stomach/or simply dont like established religion, for it seems to me that Gnostic teachings are everywhere these days, so who is funding the release of these teachings? TPTB control practically every aspect of media and communications do they not? So why would they allow us to have a taste of the real truths unless it served their purpose? All Im saying is that maybe it would be healthier to learn to discern between the voice of truth and the voice of those who do not serve the truth.
As for nobody believing anything I might shout from the rooftops, thats fine, if they go away inspired to seek their truths inwards rather than from groups or something that requires your own energy in order to manifest, then I'll be happy, if not I will still be happy because I would feel like I had atleast broken free for myself, and attempted to show others without patronising them or forcing them or treating them like babies.
Cheers

reply to post by lightw0rker


Oh no you dont!! There is no such thing as an "evolutionary leap" thankyou very much! Far out you guys are everywhere!

Originally posted by Rhebefree
What you posted is true I guess, but spirituality is very different from mathematics, the point is to understand eternal truths you can receive by shutting up and lending an ear to the "Divine" spark or whatever right? By looking around us and using discernment and Divinely appointed intuition? Surely the truth can speak for itself? We dont need intercessories to interpret what god individually says to us, isnt that what Jesus was talking about? Having a relationship with God through our souls not through a temple and rabbai?

Yes, my dear....and this is what gnosticism & the mysteries are all about. Finding the divine within yourself and not through an established religious dogma.

Originally posted by Rhebefree
Isnt it so that these "ascended" masters and spirit guides (jins?) and "Christs" are simply another form of intercessor?

No, they are not an "intercessor." They are a guide, plain and simple. Jesus said "the way to the Father is through me." If you study the mysteries, you will understand that this is a reference to a PATH. However, even knowing the PATH, it is still up to YOU, the individual, to tread it. Belief is not enough. It is a process and, therefore, work. Personal spiritual work. The work you do has no effect on me (or anyone else) and vice versa.

Originally posted by Rhebefree
As for nobody believing anything I might shout from the rooftops, thats fine, if they go away inspired to seek their truths inwards rather than from groups or something that requires your own energy in order to manifest, then I'll be happy, if not I will still be happy because I would feel like I had atleast broken free for myself, and attempted to show others without patronising them or forcing them or treating them like babies.
Cheers

Okay, if you believe this and would take this method of just "hoping" your message would get through to even one person.....then why won't you accept that MAYBE this is exactly what current initiates are trying to do by posting everything on the internet?

Rather than looking for a bogey man in "TPTB," let's look at another theory that has more credible evidence, shall we? Mainstream religion has had a stranglehold on the spiritual belief system of mankind for nearly 2000 years. People who questioned the church and their "right" to rule over your spiritual life were put to death as heretics. Is it any wonder that gnostics (who were also murdered by th e thousands in Europe) would seek to keep this information secret from anyone and everyone unless they were sure the individual was a serious seeker? Of course not.... So, now that we are living in the information age and people are much more open about religion ideals, it makes sense that keepers of this wisdom would make it available in an attempt to do what you, yourself, just stated above..... Throw it out there an hope it makes a positive inpact on someone, anyone.

Originally posted by Rhebefree

Thankyou for this post, the only thing holding me back from communing with "God" lately has been the fact that I really dont want to be played for a fool you know? Having a relationship with the creator is one thing, having a relationship with something posing as the creator is quite another! There is a movie I once watched..... 'The fourth kind' which followed the story of a psychologist who was investigating some strange occurances with her patients, it all had to do with what she thought were aliens, but anyway she would stay up late researching and her tape recorder would be running recording her thoughts, later she would go thraough the tapes and a voice not hers would be heard speaking in a foreign language, towards the end there was a scene where she tried to contact the aliens (through hypnosis) and something took over her body and started saying stuff through her, anyway long story short, the voice was saying stuff like "My creation to destroy" "I am God" "I the son, the father" and stuff along those lines. I dont know if the movie was true (they showed footage apparently from the true happenings) but it reinforced my growing suspision that their is a force out there posing as a God that wants us to worship it, that works through phenomena we refer to as UFO's and is spiritual or inter-dimensional in nature. I dont want to have a relationship with THAT!
I enjoy reading your posts, I found your interpretation of I AM interesting, have you heard of the Mechanical Translation of the Hebrew Bible? www.mechanical-translation.org... Its really interesting, you should check it out anyway they translate the word Ehyeh (a name for the most high I assume) as "I exist", so I got a kick out of reading "it was God and what did God say his name was, I Am. Get it, I exist"

I agree that most people want a shortcut, that can be said of most things in life not just spirituality we are a generation of convinience seekers, and perhaps that is why Adam and Eve took a bite of that apple; they wanted a fast track to wisdom (your interpretation of the garden of eden thing is interesting, if they didnt know right from wrong why were they punished?), but I still think that part of the problem is that we are conditioned by TPTB not to understand the truth when it comes knocking. I mean Im genuinely hungering after somethiing real but whats real anymore when we have all these religions and groups both esoteric and exoteric pulling the average reader this way and that way and encouraging people to veiw others as wrong or un-evolved or un-worthy or worse damned? If God has been watching me grow and attempting to interact with me all these years, how would I know, now that I have knowledge of other things whether he/she/it is the creator or something else? All I have to go on is intuition, and if all thats required to make a choice on what voice you will commune with then is intuition, what need do we have of institutionalised religion? For sure what if the word of God really is in us and the authority to interpret it does not fall to any clergy but to ourselves?
When I was a Christian I learned of a man (cant remember his name) who retreated into what he termed his prayer closet, he did not eat, he emerged after a time changed, healed and apparently able to heal others, at the time an elder of my church and my mentor at the time, told me not to take it too seriously, that his methods were dangerous. Well I think thats what I need to do, dangerous or not, retreat into a "Prayer closet" and seek the voice of truth, because if truth connot be found within my own heart, or if the creator would punish us with a seperation of "his" presence without giving us the means to re-connect directly, without the intervention of men and women who dont seem to understand that you dont need tithes and offerings or even converts in order to spread the message of "Love thy brother and sister", then this is a god I do not want to know about.
Also, have you ever wondered why there is such a focus in many of these religions on souls? "Winning" souls for the kingdom, "ascending" the spirit to meld with "God", attaining "Perfection" for the uplifting of the soul, and all that stuff.... Arent aliens said to come from the sky?
Lastly, I dont think the goal is to grow in order to be with God, I'd like to think that life is more about movement and the extending of life, about walking alongside the creator in order to keep creating and living and enjoying, I dont think life was ever meant to be complicated, but somewhere along the way we started listening to the wrong voice..........
Anyway, thankyou again, your insight has been very helpfull
Your daughter has a long road ahead of her but with a father like you I am sure she will come through just fine
(I know I only know of you what you have posted, but you come across as a very good and caring person which is why I assume you are also a very good and caring father

)

edit on 13-4-2011 by Rhebefree because: Figuring out the quote thing

edit on 13-4-2011 by Rhebefree because: a sentance was missing some words

I want to begin by thanking you for your kind words and I try to be a good father, it is the toughest job in the world and I don't think we can ever be right. Perhaps that is the point, by being a parent we can understand God a little better. We don't want our children to be hurt; but, they have to learn some things for themselves or they never grow.

Sentient beings. If we can not hear God then we can not hear demons, it is also a choice. We are told to not attempt to interact with spirits, good or bad, there is a reason, we are not prepared to. A demon or Satan can only interact with you if you allow them to, you always have the right to say no. People that claim to interact with spirits are the one's at risk because they can be fooled. That is the biblical response, now here is my philisophical response to the concern over being tricked by any spirit or so called God.

We were created to be what we choose. We have free will whether there is a God or not. I experience emotions and pain and pleasure, therefore I am and this is what I am capable of experiencing. If I choose to define myself by what I believe to be right or wrong in fact (rather than believing one thing and doing another when challenged and justifying it because of the threat or goodie I received for making the wrong choice) then I cannot be fooled, I will do what I believe is right (not best, right).

Nobody in my life has been told my username on this site and there are few that even know I am on it. Because of that I will talk about my daughter and tonight, it is on point. There was a time when I was a very cold individual in ways that few can even comprehend, since I was a child I directed myself to be the type who could kill without remorse for the "right" reasons. I came from a military and intelligence background. My autism made it really easy to be that way, too easy. I still have friends and family in the military and intelligence industry. They still view the world the way I used to. Problems are dealt with in whatever manner will best resolve the issue.

I spoke to my daughter tonight, she told the jerk who got her pregnant that she had miscarried. He had wanted her to have an abortion and she consciously chose not to, partly because she knew I absolutely believe abortion is wrong (that is what I believe and I will not discuss it further on this thread). I do not believe in harming others to make my life easier, take your medicine is my thought. The moron told her how it was best that she had the miscarriage. I of course get to be the one who hears her cry and say how she hates him. If my friends or family knew what he said he would not do well, these type of people still resolve problems on a permanent basis, there is no second chance. I have already had to cool a few of them and my fear was that they would get so fed up that they would not ask me in advance (and that would be disrespectful, not the code, you let a man deal with his family and only interfere when given permission or he is incapacitated). For the purpose of this discussion you do not need to believe me, you only need to know that such people do in fact exist, treat it as a hypothetical if that is more convenient.

I could, without any trail, take away everything (including his daughter by another woman) from him with little effort other than a phone call. There was most definately a time when I would have done so. I most certainly did not become a Christian over night. My daughter will never talk to this man again, she learned that lesson. He cannot cause her anymore grief unless she puts herself in that situation. There is a man sleeping on my couch as I write this, he desperatly wants me to allow him to respond to what occurred; but, he knows I will not condone such actions (he is not one of the military or intelligence people, a friend). He also knows that I can have whatever I want happen to the ex-boyfriend happen, I could simply make a post on my blog and stuff will happen, so I don't. I have not given the title of my blog out on ATS.

Here is the problem, I became a Christian and I now trust in God as much as I am capable. That is faith rather than belief. It is not easy for an old warrior to not protect and to let my daughter choose, that is allowing another to have the same free will that I want for myself and she is an adult. Now, if she chooses not to have any relationship with this man then I can protect her from him. If he chose to stalk her he will no longer have my good graces and I will let others exercise their free will. At this point, so long as my daughter chooses to not be with him, there is no NEED to protect her unless he violates her choice and attempts to force himself upon her. Harming when there is no need is wrong. That is how I choose to define myself, not revenge. That is a very hard thing for me to come to grips with based on where I started. It is not about being "right", it is about doing what is best, that which will make things better.

What I am describing may sound like a cost benefit analysis; but, it takes "me" out of the decision making process. I ignore how I will personally gain or benefit, that is what Christianity is supposed to be about, in my humble opinion. I have chosen to be a pacifist (much to the shock of my family and friends), I defined me and I am willing to live or die with the consequences. I used to be capable of being so cold that it scared those around me who did such things for a living (justified by being done for the "country"). If I have defined myself then I have nothing to fear from any God except extinction and I am already willing to die for what I believe, how I choose to define myself. I cannot be tricked if I have defined byself by my morals rather than fear of pain or wish for pleasure. That is why I say worry about your heart and not being tricked.

W.C. Fields said it best, "You can't cheat an honest man". Great line and plenty of truth behind it. The police have a similar saying, "If it sounds to good to be true, it is". A good God would not create humans if he wanted Zombies or things to harm. A "good" God would want us to define ourselves, he would let us know that we can "do as thou will" and be pleased when we did what was right instead, no personal gain reason in our logic, only love for all. Decide for yourself what you believe is "right" (you will not have the perfect answer, we are imperfect) and be it. Be the morals that you believe in and you can never go wrong or be fooled, live it in everything and you can never be untrue and truth is salvation. The truth shall set you free (at least you cannot fool the truth).

Treasury agents are taught how to spot real money, not phony money. You can look up videos on line for how Treasury agents are taught, a family member (not a Treasury agent) used to teach them how to know the real. If you know the truth then the lies unravel before you by nature. Don't worry about being fooled, worry about knowing the truth and defining for yourself what is the right thing, you can always change your mind as you grow. Today I see through a glass dimly; but,...

I will read your link; but, it is late and I had to deal with my daughter and a very dear friend. As for Adam and Eve, they were not punished, they were allowed to grow. Eve knew that Adam could not take anymore. Imagine living every day as a child knowing that God saw everything you did and knowing that you were a baby and could never grow or be any better (sort of the situation angels and demons are in - limited growth - purer than us, not better). There is no freedom when you know everything is seen, too much guilt and imperfection, we were not ready for a direct relationship with God. Eve could not stand to see the one she loved in so much pain and the only way she could release him was to cause seperation, she saw sin as the only way she could cease his pain and she ate first. She did not just bring sin into the world, she brought freedom of free will. Free will is a choice and it begins by disobedience. Would you want to have a child that had never been disobedient?

I use very human and personal examples because I believe we can all understand them. I do not believe God has been waiting for you to interact with him, that is your choice, I believe he is always willing for us to interact with him and pleased when we do (the progigal son is a good story about this). I don't mind a "prayer closet", I think prayer can be a way of learning who we are and what we want to become. We do not need the intervention of others; but, we can learn from them same as we can learn from our parents. I am against "guides" when we have already defined ourselves, take you hits and continue to refine your definition of you. As for seperation from his presence, we choose that until we are ready to hear more (my Adam and Even description), it is not a "punishment" it is the answer to a prayer.

I do not believe we grow "in order to be with God", I believe we grow and if we grow enough then we can handle being with God on a different level. I believe that we can only reach so high and then he must reach down. I believe we have the right to not recognize him and to be our own God, should we so choose. I believe life is about seeing how complicated we can become and still learn to do what is best, I don't believe an eternity of simplicity can work, boredom will occur. The amount of stress we can take, well the bible says that God will not challenge us more than we CAN handle, we don't always choose to handle it. A "good" God would never deny us our free will, he would seperate himself from us rather than crush us and who could stand up to God?

Gnosticism is about following rules and climbing a ladder (stairway to heaven). It says we can attain perfection and become perfect and then repeat that process endlessly, I don't buy it. Perfection is a process and not a result, it is a process of continual growth and improvement. That is one very serious math problem, how does one become continuous? It is a good math problem. Please go back and read the best explanations of the gnostic promoters (and I believe they were being sincere and believe that what they believe in is what they believe is best - at least the one's I read on this thread), there is always an end and a need to repeat or cease being yourself for a time, for me that is hell, statis (even if for but a moment). The "zero hypothesis" is not against gnostics, it applies to aethiests and the gnostics would laugh at them with me.

Do not be afraid of meeting the Devil (heck, I will introduce you to my ex, his sister - that is a joke). Do not worry about being fooled by the Devil or TPTB, use your free will and define yourself, by your heart and love. If you live by your love and belief in what is right than a "good" God would love you and forgive and a bad "god" would be your enemy. I would rather go down doing what I believe is right than have all the treasure in the universe for doing what I believe is wrong and I am willing to learn.

How much of being challenged to be you can you handle, rest and then grow again. That is nature, that is light and day, that is how we reach our unlimited limit (there is no limit, that is where the gnostics and I disagree). I do not believe in guides, I believe in interaction and you choosing for yourself what you believe is right and growing from there to learn that you never get it 100% perfect, perfection is a process that leads to eternal growth and that allows us to deal with the reality of eternity without boredom. That is my answer and that is all it is, I am imperfect and growing the same as you are, I like growth and I like babies (variation and opportunity to grow some more).

I really wanted to be a grandfather, I love babies and in my family I get first sniff at them (there is nothing like the smell of a newborn). I am not looking to give you answers, I love the fact that you are looking at the question, I can only give you a reason for what and why I believe it and would not do more. Do not look at your time of being unsure as a problem, look at it as an opportunity to decide for yourself what you believe, what you hope is the truth and then work the heck out of it, take the challenge and go with it, stretch yourself and be all that you can at this moment and be willing to be wrong.

Best wishes. Know that I am not good and do not wish to be perfect (I never wanted to be God, I wanted to be me and I am). My daughter is imperfect and makes mistakes and I still love her. I used to have a saying, "From our parents we can learn love, from our children we can learn forgiveness as we forgive them"). Do not be afraid of being tricked, be afraid of not being you. I do hope that this helps you, more questions rather than more answers. Be well and thank you again for your concern for my daughter, she is an imperfect sentient being and my baby.

reply to post by OnTheLevel213

Originally posted by OnTheLevel213
Well, are we mind-controlled NWO slaves or aren't we? If we can come up with two fundamentally different answers to the same question, your mind control theories don't appear to hold much water.

Yes we all are mind controlled slaves, trapped in the prison of our minds. Otherwise we would have known the answers to various existential questions - who are we, where are we and why are we here, the answers to such questions are inherent in all of us but we can't realize it, because we are filtering reality through various false belief systems that we have acquired through society and the various institutions in it. People go to lodges, churches, mosques, temples etc. for finding answers to various spiritual questions, but end up getting further indoctrinated. The more outside belief systems we hold on to, the more we trap ourselves in the prison of our own mind.
www.tuberose.com...

Beliefs are subtle but powerful; they tie us up in knots until we are so caught in our own belief systems, that we believe it is who we are. Until we sharpen our inner vision, we are virtually blind to our own belief systems. Belief systems are so instinctive that until this happens, we rarely see them coming. Beliefs are on automatic pilot. Belief systems are as subtle as they are treacherous; they write out the script to our life and before we know what happened, we are completely playing the part.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in a democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power in our country."
-Edward Bernays "Propaganda" 1928

www.independent.co.uk... l

Milgram devised and carried out ingenious experiments that exposed the frailty and self-delusion that are central to our lives. He showed how easy it is to make ordinary people do terrible things, that "evil" often happens for the most mundane of reasons.

"One of the illusions about human behavior is that it stems from personality or character, but social psychology shows us that often human behavior is dominated by the roles that we are asked to play."

Milgram once wrote that we are "puppets controlled by the strings of society". Yet what is also true is that not all puppets jump when their strings are pulled.

And the puppets who do not jump when their strings are pulled by the puppet masters, are the people like me and many others like me, who have slightly loosened their control strings and are questioning the established belief systems embedded in us by the control structures. So, sir when I say Freemasons are mind controlled slaves, you should take it in a positive spirit as we all are under the influence of various types of thought reform.

your mind control theories don't appear to hold much water.

It would all make sense, if you will stop listening to what you have been programmed with and quit the mode of denial-ism.

"Denial is a complex unconscious defense mechanism for coping with guilt, anxiety and other disturbing emotions aroused by reality." -- States of Denial: Knowing about Atrocities and Suffering, Stanley Cohen.

"All counter-claims about the denied reality are themselves only man-oeuvres in endless truth-games. And truth, as we know, is inseparable from power."-- States of Denial: Knowing about Atrocities and Suffering, Stanley Cohen.

We know the truth already but due to feeling of shame or guilt, one often faces difficulties in accepting it. And then begins endless cycle of denial of the truth. And when you deny the truth, you effectively give away your power to govern and control yourself into the hands of others.

freedomofmind.com...

Mind Control – The BITE Model

Behavior Control

1. Regulation of individual’s physical reality

a. Where, how and with whom the member lives and associates with

b. What clothes, colors, hairstyles the person wears......

2. Major time commitment required for indoctrination sessions and group rituals.

3. Need to ask permission for major decisions.

4. Need to report thoughts, feelings and activities to superiors.

5. Rewards and punishments (behavior modification techniques- positive and negative).

6. Individualism discouraged; group think prevails.

Thought Control

1. Need to internalize the group’s doctrine as “Truth”

a. Map = Reality

b. Black and White thinking

c. Good vs. evil

d. Us vs. them (inside vs. outside)

Emotional Control

4. Excessive use of fear

a. Fear of thinking independently

b. Fear of the “outside” world

c. Fear of enemies

d. Fear of losing one’s “salvation”

e. Fear of leaving the group or being shunned by group

f. Fear of disapproval

Realising the bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves

Mind Programming : From Persuasion and Brainwashing, to Self-Help and Practical Metaphysics

Wait !

you didn't answered why Freemasons think that without freemasonry or religions world will plunge into chaos.
Never mind, I don't want an answer for that, as I know such beliefs comes from the altered self.

Essentially, bi-polar mind control works by encouraging an aspirant to identify with an imagined ideal new self, and then, from the perspective of this new self, to see their old self as comparatively inferior and flawed. It is ego-utopia or hubris for the new self, and ego-dystonia or shame for the old self. Link.

But one can always move away from constant chatter of the mind and connect with the consciousness and experience freedom, bliss and tranquility. Thanks for replying

Originally posted by illuminazislayer
Yes we all are mind controlled slaves, trapped in the prison of our minds. Otherwise we would have known the answers to various existential questions - who are we, where are we and why are we here, the answers to such questions are inherent in all of us but we can't realize it, because we are filtering reality through various false belief systems that we have acquired through society and the various institutions in it.

I wouldn't call this "mind controlled slaves," I'd call it simply misguided. To be a "mind controlled slave," there has to be intent to subjugate. While it would be statistically impossible to say that there are no individualsin the world who want to subjugate you, I don't believe that is the intent behind 99% of the people, businesses, churches, etc... out there who make up the majority of the sphere which interacts with your life. People just want to live a relatively happy and productive life. Convincing you to buy into something so they can make a living and support their families is not mind control.

Originally posted by illuminazislayer
Yes we all are mind controlled slaves, trapped in the prison of our minds. Otherwise we would have known the answers to various existential questions - who are we, where are we and why are we here, the answers to such questions are inherent in all of us but we can't realize it

I'm doing all right. Perhaps you could figure it out if you stopped blaming everyone else for holding you back.

It would all make sense, if you will stop listening to what you have been programmed with and quit the mode of denial-ism.

That's entirely the point. The Mason you quoted and I are in teh same jurisdiction, working the same ritual, and yet a pretty huge question elicits different answers. What, exactly, is controlled?

Sure, let's look at the BITE Model:

1. Regulation of individual’s physical reality

a. Where, how and with whom the member lives and associates with

Doesn't happen in Freemasonry. As a matter of fact, where you live determines the lodge you join.

b. What clothes, colors, hairstyles the person wears......

Nope.

2. Major time commitment required for indoctrination sessions and group rituals.

Two nights a month hardly qualifies as "major".

3. Need to ask permission for major decisions.

Nope.

4. Need to report thoughts, feelings and activities to superiors.

Nope.

5. Rewards and punishments (behavior modification techniques- positive and negative).

Tell you what. For the sake of argument, we'll call 50-year service awards and other honors "rewards". That's half for argument's sake.

6. Individualism discouraged; group think prevails.

Individualism is encouraged, even mandated.

1. Need to internalize the group’s doctrine as “Truth”

a. Map = Reality

You've got me here.

b. Black and White thinking

c. Good vs. evil

As a system of morality, the ideas of good and evil obviously come into play. So I'll give you that.

d. Us vs. them (inside vs. outside)

Nope. There's a requirement to keep our passions within due bounds toward all mankind.

Emotional Control

4. Excessive use of fear

The candidate is told not to be afraid.

a. Fear of thinking independently

Previously addressed.

b. Fear of the “outside” world

We are encouraged to better the outside world.

c. Fear of enemies

What enemies?

d. Fear of losing one’s “salvation”

Freemasonry never offered salvation to begin with.

e. Fear of leaving the group or being shunned by group

Every Mason is told exactly how he may leave the fraternity, and why.

f. Fear of disapproval

Aaand...no. So that's 1/2 out of 16 that might fit Freemasonry.

Wait !

you didn't answered why Freemasons think that without freemasonry or religions world will plunge into chaos.

Yes, I did. I said that Freemasons don't believe that, and that the other poster was incorrect. That's my point entirely; we're not mind-controlled if we're coming to fundamental differences on key questions.

But one can always move away from constant chatter of the mind and connect with the consciousness and experience freedom, bliss and tranquility.

I do it quite often.

It's a shame you chase the bogeymen who you think are suppressing you instead of doing it for yourself.

reply to post by OnTheLevel213

I'm doing all right. Perhaps you could figure it out if you stopped blaming everyone else for holding you back.

Your unconscious mind is running your life!

www.lifetrainings.com...

Neuroscientists have shown that the conscious mind provides 5% or less of our cognitive (conscious) activity during the day – and 5% they say is for the more aware people, many people operate at just 1% consciousness. Dr Lipton also says that the unconscious mind operates at 40 million bits of data per second, whereas the conscious mind processes at only 40 bits per second. So the unconscious mind is MUCH more powerful than the conscious mind, and it is the unconscious mind which shapes how we live our life.

And it seems the unconscious mind is running us on its automatic pilot mode, 95% of the time!

The scientists show that most of our decisions, actions, emotions and behavior depend on the 95% of brain activity that is beyond our conscious awareness, which means that 95 – 99% of our life comes from the programming in our subconscious mind.

Sir, denying the truth and repeating the same things again and again is what we are doing 95% of time, we have to stop running the same subconscious programs and think consciously. Thanks again for your insights.

Originally posted by illuminazislayer
Sir, denying the truth and repeating the same things again and again is what we are doing 95% of time, we have to stop running the same subconscious programs and think consciously.

I haven't repeated a thing. You're the one who continues to insist we're all under mind control hypnosis while ignoring clear contradiction of that claim.

reply to post by "illuminazislayer"

Yeshua (Jesus, Iesus) the Jew-Zeus

Q: "Do humanoids have a free will?"

A: "...only three percent; the Free Will acts in accordance with the percentage of Consciousness that we liberate. We start working with 3 percent of free will and 97 percent of evil will, thus, as long as we walk on this path and we are releasing Consciousness it becomes Free Will.

"When you reach the Fifth Initiation - alchemically, esoterically speaking - you have 50 percent of Free Will because you are half human half animal, right? The human bodies are electronic bodies because the Consciousness is electronic. So when the Five Serpents are awakened then you are with 50 % of Free Will but the goal is to reach 100% of Free Will. This is why many Initiates who reach the 50 % or sometimes 30 or 40%, sometimes they don't follow the will of the Lord and they fall. Thus, if even initiates with 100 percent of Free Will can fall, why not all of the others who are below 100%. The downfall happens because when the Initiate annihilates completely his entire ego, the only thing that remains instead of the ego is the mind. Even being Solar, the Solar mind is the problem because the mind, the human mind can become in love and decide not to follow the Will of God and that is precisely the problem of a fallen Bodhisattva who identifies with his Solar mind. Even when the mind is Solar it is still the mind, you see? So, what about our mind which is lunar. It's worse.

"I wish that all of us here present will receive the Lord in our hearts, yet, remember that for that to happen, we have to work a lot. This does not happen just by assisting to these lectures or by reading books, that is not the way you will attain his incarnation, no, this is an Initiatic process. This is why we have to study the gospels but from a Kabbalistic, Alchemical point of view, not literally. Still many people exist who are waiting for the second coming of Jesus without understanding that if the first coming is not happening within them, then how is the second coming going to happen? The first coming relate to the Seven Initiations of Fire and the second coming relate to the Seven Initiations of Light, these are the Seven Incarnations of the Lord, the Initiations of Light which are the best in us. The incarnation is announced by the angel to whom your monad belongs to."

The following...:

"Even being Solar, the Solar mind is the problem because the mind, the human mind can become in love and decide not to follow the Will of God and that is precisely the problem of a fallen Bodhisattva who identifies with his Solar mind. Even when the mind is Solar it is still the mind, you see?"

...has to be understood in context.


And the following links that I've already posted explain it:

Originally posted by Tamahu

Reasoning of Arch-Demons to Perform Evil (see Son of Man's reply)

Eternal Recurrance, Spiritual Falls, and Rebirth

Black Magic, Immortality, and the Second Death

Damnation

Originally posted by Rhebefree

I guess Im going to have to decide whether you are lying or not

Not necessarily. If someone is a Mason, their membership records exist somewhere. You could cross-reference those (assuming they exist) with SEC filings or the Australian equivalent.

Fair enough I guess... If masonry started up as a way to share secrets of architecture and stone masonry then why did it continue long after stone masonry was not needed.....

The operative Freemasons found that metaphors for construction were a good way to inculcate morality, and ritual was a good way to give education to illiterate but intellectually voracious tradesmen; in time, Freemasons were the most educated men of their day not among nobility or clergy. As the need for stone construction declined, learned men not among the building trades joined to preserve these traditions.

Whats wrong with Alex Jones? He's angry....

He's also very wrong very often. To paraphrase Marx, his programming is the opiate of the minority. Those who realize the official story contains important redactions and interpolations become hungry for the truth, and he provides something that, while false and often ridiculous, fits with their cynicism; Alex Jones takes the people who are angry enough to change something and redirects their energies into marginalization.

I think maybe thats why so many of us conspiracy believers are just not open to the possibility that there is nothing sinister about masons we are just so angry at the manipulation and corruption and in-equality and we know that it is a secretive group that is causing it all, I guess masonry is an easy target something that provides a face to what we think TPTB must be....... I dont know

Exactly. He gets people tilting at windmills while the giants run around unimpeded.

So masons have no ties to Bohemian grove, tri-lateral commision, Bildeberg? Are you sure about that?

I'm sure you could fnid one or two Masons on the guest list, but on an organizational level, I am absolutely sure.

This site is interesting Bohemian grove

It would take another thread to go into everything I know that site is wrong about, and the list of things it's wrong about beyond what I know is probably book-length.

I dont agree with everything on it, but it gives good info on bohemian grove among other things

Except where it's unequivocally false.

its a christian site, but since your protestant you will probably agree with it

My denomination falls outside the Protestant-Catholic divide.

I know I'm in the minority, but I'm starting to believe that the Pope is a figurehead in actual Vatican administration. It doesn't make sense to me that a bunch of career theologians and ministers are suddenly promoted to head of state with very little actual training.

It wouldnt surprise me, the president is just a figurehead in the whitehouse, the prime-minister is just a figurehead in parliment, question is who is really behind the figure heads?

The money men.

Ok, I suppose if an athiest wanted to join a lodge he could always start his own up, Would masonry allow that? An atheist chapter, or womens only chapter?

The first Mason to post in this thread was a member of a Masonic obedience that admitted both. They're not in amity with my kind of Freemasonry, but they do exist.

So are you like the church, going out on missions all over the world to convert and Masonize the world

No. Not at all. Not one iota. Masonry does not recruit, and there are certainly no "Masonic missions". The only thing that causes our ranks to swell is a man who finds the fraternity admirable and desires to be counted among its members.

Except women who dont need masonizing, why is that?

Because fraternities are by definition male organizations.

Possibly, but it seems simple to me, take an axe to the root of suffering, which is money, valueless peices of paper with no use except to raise up those who should not be raised up and oppress the many..... Burn it down

Billions of people would immediately starve to death if you did that.

If masons are simply men who have worked their way up in life

Not all of them have.

Just like any religion, steer the organisation the right way

Using what?

make sure only those who are useful to your agenda get in

I can personally attest that if only world dominators are to be allowed entry into Freemasonry that this theory is a complete failure.

then when the time is right use them as a banner to carry out your final plans

That's what I've been trying to say. Freemasonry doesn't have a unified political or religious agenda, doesn't have all that much money, has no supra-regional administrative hierarchy, and doesn't move particularly quickly on administrative matters even when there is agreement. It's a pathetically inefficient method of effecting large-scale change; if it weren't for the (overblown) secrets, no one would be pointing a finger our way at all.

Ok, but what if god doesnt want service? What if god just wants us to simply stop allowing suffering and evil men (and women) their thrones?

That God would want anything implies that service to God is a pursuable agenda.

Its a sobering thought, as for them condescending masons, well again it could simply be due to needing to name that which we cannot see but know to exist

I understand that, but it's a habit that fringe theorists (a term which probably encompasses conspiracy theorists and myself) need to break if they want any of the mainstream acceptance needed for real change. Most people have a one-strike-you're-out policy on accuracy in non-traditional arguments.

I mean doing what you do is great and all but dont you think its a bit like fighting your enemy by arming him? Like fighting fire with fire?

I don't see the tendency to form groups as the enemy any more than Louisville Slugger is to blame if I get bludgeoned tomorrow.

I dont know what it is you do to help society except donating money because thats the only thing I have read masons highlight, but money and the over abundance of for some and the lack thereof for most is the problem

Which is why Masonic hospitals operate for free.

eliminate money from the picture and people would have the opportunity and right to really work hard to provide for their families, we would have to work with nature to produce the things we need, and it would be more equal too because then anybody could have their own home and the ability to produce their own food......

We more or less tried doing that. Things were even worse then.

There would be an explosion of information, free energy, earths cycles, plants, truths once kept back from the general populace would be free to spread and it would be so wonderfull........
Well, in theory

In a theory that ignores several elements of reality.

Ok, I'll believe you aslong as your not a "Pure" blood, your not are you?

Well, it's a pretty deep red.

aww, so if I shutup youll come back more often?

No, if I quit working I'd be here all the time. Well, all the time until my wife comes home at five and kills me.

Originally posted by CIAGypsy
Yes, my dear....and this is what gnosticism & the mysteries are all about. Finding the divine within yourself and not through an established religious dogma.

(For the record, it may take awhile for some things to click but Im not stupid so please dont type to me like Im thick! "Yes my dear...." Im not three! Anyho, before I started reading a book by a "noble" born. I thought thats what the mysteries were about too, just finding things out and spiritually ascending and whatnot, but when you read ideas, that you recognize from something you thought was right, being expressed by people who are obviously elitist, right alongside other ideas that to your "un-initiated" ears sound dangerous if not down right sickening, then you start to wonder if maybe just maybe even the alternative to mainstream religion is a lie too).

No, they are not an "intercessor." They are a guide, plain and simple. Jesus said "the way to the Father is through me." If you study the mysteries, you will understand that this is a reference to a PATH. However, even knowing the PATH, it is still up to YOU, the individual, to tread it. Belief is not enough. It is a process and, therefore, work. Personal spiritual work. The work you do has no effect on me (or anyone else) and vice versa.

(I both agree and dis-agree with what you have said here, if that makes sense, I dont think its a matter of choosing a path someone else has already forged I think its up to us individually to forge our own paths and if our path happens to cross someone elses or run parrallel to anothers then great, but I dont think we were ever meant to follow soeone elses path, but I agree it is up to us to tread the path we choose and that its hard work (so very very hard!!).... And I do think what we individually choose effects everyone else, there was a quote or something, linked here I think, that talked about how true karma was in the here and now and what we choose now effects the world now, rather than you paying for a past life sin in a future life, you and your fellow humanity feels the effects of stupid actions right now. It was similar to something I was working out in my own head a few weeks ago, I was thinking, "what if karma has more to do with your DNA than your spirit?" because we know that DNA records stuff, they did a study and found that memory is imprinted on your genes and passed down to your children and..... Anyway Im babbling sorry

)

Okay, if you believe this and would take this method of just "hoping" your message would get through to even one person.....then why won't you accept that MAYBE this is exactly what current initiates are trying to do by posting everything on the internet?

Rather than looking for a bogey man in "TPTB," let's look at another theory that has more credible evidence, shall we? Mainstream religion has had a stranglehold on the spiritual belief system of mankind for nearly 2000 years. People who questioned the church and their "right" to rule over your spiritual life were put to death as heretics. Is it any wonder that gnostics (who were also murdered by th e thousands in Europe) would seek to keep this information secret from anyone and everyone unless they were sure the individual was a serious seeker? Of course not.... So, now that we are living in the information age and people are much more open about religion ideals, it makes sense that keepers of this wisdom would make it available in an attempt to do what you, yourself, just stated above..... Throw it out there an hope it makes a positive inpact on someone, anyone.

(You got me there! However, if I were to consider the possibility that there is no Gnostic or mason conspiracy here, could you consider the possibility that whoever is responsible for the sins of mainstream religions (are we in agreement that mainstream religion has been used for the past two thousand years or so?) could also be trying to steer and use what couldve been positive in the mysteries to further an agenda that is not so positive? Considering someone elses point, it works both ways mate!)

In the end I think having access to information spiritual or otherwise is excellent and if I didnt have access to things online then possibly I would still be stuck in a spiritual system that wasnt doing anything good for me, however, I think its important to realise that their are forces out there who do not have our best spiritual health in mind, making plans for humanity and it is becoming increasingly clear that they are carrying out these plans, I do not believe they are above steering any spiritual movement to their benifit. For example, I mentioned to someone else that I thought originally witchcraft was simply a way for poor people to feel they have some power against those that oppresed them, some small glimmer of control, a secret only theirs not beholden to any pope, it was completely opossite to anything (I think) in its time, for instance they would provoke a spirit or god into action on their behalf rather than grovelling or offering up a 50/50 type deal, as if the gods were there to serve them rather than the other way round, but all too quickly the witch movement was destroyed. Its resurgence in later centuries saw a complete change to its original form, now instead of "cursing" the oppresses, it is used to "curse" someone that your envious of, now instead of controlling the entity you invoke your encouraged to give said entity your energy and let it control the deal...... You see how something potentially positive, and dangerous to the system, was conquered? They destroyed the people who were functioning in its true purpose then allowed it to emerge a weaker former shadow of itself, no-longer a threat, which rather than empowers binds people (esspecially teenagers) to things they should not be bound to.
But I thankyou for your contribution, if masons and those who follow the mysteries had not responded to my thread I would still be in the dark about certain points.

reply to post by AQuestion


I appreciated this post more than you will ever know, thankyou, it was beautifull your daughter really is lucky to have you in her life. I'm entirely against abortion also, except in certain very extreme circumstances, so you dont need to worry about me making an issue of it in this thread Im sure there are plenty of threads here devoted to that particular topic!
I was up late last night thinking about your last post and I concluded that you were right, a god of love would let it be known that it was love, whereas something not of love would prove itself so also. God has never told me to do anything that would harm me, he(she?) has never required anything of me except my ears, a pen, and decisions ("what will YOU choose? For I do not force what I create only offer choice")
So I figured there cant possibly be anything evil in that, whether I am actually hearing God or am just plain bonkers I wont worry anymore.... unless it gets creepy . And reading this post was really encouraging, so again thankyou.

Originally posted by Rhebefree
reply to post by AQuestion

 

I appreciated this post more than you will ever know, thankyou, it was beautifull your daughter really is lucky to have you in her life. I'm entirely against abortion also, except in certain very extreme circumstances, so you dont need to worry about me making an issue of it in this thread Im sure there are plenty of threads here devoted to that particular topic!
I was up late last night thinking about your last post and I concluded that you were right, a god of love would let it be known that it was love, whereas something not of love would prove itself so also. God has never told me to do anything that would harm me, he(she?) has never required anything of me except my ears, a pen, and decisions ("what will YOU choose? For I do not force what I create only offer choice")
So I figured there cant possibly be anything evil in that, whether I am actually hearing God or am just plain bonkers I wont worry anymore.... unless it gets creepy

. And reading this post was really encouraging, so again thankyou.

God is a funny guy, he built us so he has the owners manual and lets us choose thing for ourselves. He also lets us know him in ways that we are able to; but, that is different for all of us. I have met quite a few people who have had spiritual experiences. I know one lady (a dear friend up north) whose husband killed himself. She told me that one day she was ready to die and God spoke to her. He came because she said if there is a God I need to know or I don't want to live. He chose to reach down. Sometimes we need to hear him for ourselves.

As for being bonkers, I have been all my life and wouldn't have it any other way. One of the greatest experiences in my life happened in Baker, California. I was driving to Vegas from L.A. and was beginning to have a heart attack (while the divorce was going on and too many other things). I pulled over and was ready to die. I should explain that my doctors had predicted such a death (or a stroke) every time they saw me (blood pressure they see once a year and blood thick as oil - triglycerides of 1,000 like my mother had who died from an anurism). I pulled over, parked at the Starbucks and waited to die, alone, in Baker. I did not call anyone; but, I did reflect on my life. I was happy with what I had done and was ready to go. I forgave the ex, her boyfriend and everyone who ever hurt me and I meant it from the bottom of my heart. In that moment I felt as if all the pressure went away and had a very spiritual moment. It was a Christian spiritual moment and not a gnostic moment, nobody led me anywhere, I knew the truth in my heart, I didn't need to be told or follow anyone.

Some people hear God on occassion, I cannot explain why, I am limited in knowledge like everyone else. Here is what I do know, you cannot turn crazy off, it is 24/7. I did not see you say that this was the case for you. There are many, many people that have had spiritual experiences of varying nature. For all spiritual experiences I think the question is the same, are you able to choose, to make the decision or are you being told. Ask yourself if it is true to your heart rather than to what you want. If you are true to your heart you will make the right decisions and not harm others or yourself, you will do what is best. That is how we should all work even if we do not have a spiritual experience. Or at least that is what I think.

In order to stay on topic, I am going to talk about the different type of spiritual experiences. The Buddhists believe in Kundalini and many report having experienced it. People in the Amazon and Africa often have guided spirtual experiences with the help of Shamans. There are others that "channel" or communicate with spirits. There are those who take the chemical known as '___' and have spiritual experiences (usually bad). An finally there are those who have Near Death Experiences or NDE's.

In all of these experiences there is the same risk that you described, how do you really know who you are talking to. If it isn't asked then it should be. The choices are really limited as to whether or not the experience is real (and there are those who don't believe life is real and think we are in the matrix). Firstly, did you try to have the experience? Secondly, are you crazy. You don't have to wonder if you have been hypnotised (that won't cause a spiritual experience) and you don't have to wonder if you have been under mind control (that takes years and requires that you first be broken down completely and the fed your new answers (doesn't involve a spiritual experiences). Finally, you have to ask if it is a real experience and accept that it could be. I think that is the toughest one.

If you have eliminated the probable then all that is left is the impossible for supernatural. Now, who are you hearing does not matter if you are the one that gets to make the choices and no threats or promises are made to you. God does not threaten or promise cookies as incentives to those who speak to him, he promises your life to be harder. The guy I mentioned who is sleeping on my couch, he had a spiritual experience, He used to take ecstasy ( a lot of it and I mean a lot), he had anger issues and was not the kind of person he wanted to be. He said he saw Jesus in others and met him. It changed his life and he changed his ways for the better. He played professional poker and made money, he is not crazy. I know, he is very strategic and logical.

It would be easy for me to believe that his experience was the result of all of the ecstasy; but, what does it matter. He made better decisions, not worse ones. He became more peaceful, not violent. He became more productive, not less. You mentioned that you were not told to do things; but, were instead asked questions. You got to supply the answers. The moment you feel you are being led to do something you do not believe is right, say no. God gave us free will and saying no is therefore a valid decision. I mentioned that I am a pacifist in my last post, I will not kill anyone, ever and not even if I were in the military. I would rather be killed than kill. That is my life decision. My God would like that answer. Problem is you have to be faced with the choice to know that you will stick by it.

Abraham was asked by God to sacrifice his son, Isaac. Abraham took his son to the mountain, made and alter and prepared to kill him. God told him to stop. At the time child sacrifice was common to the "gods". God then explained that he wasn't that kind of God, the story shows that we have a God who doesn't want us to harm others and wants us to understand that he doesn't want us to do bad because we are faced with a spirit telling us to. God told the Israelites to go into Palestine and kill everyone, they killed fewer and fewer as each town was conquered. What if they had refused to kill anyone? Do you think they would not have had Israel anyways? He would have found a way. They needed to seperate themselves from their societal definition of themselves and begin to learn right from wrong on a societal level. When they failed Jesus came and explained it was not about rules but was about heart. It is not about doing what we are told, it is not about giving up self, it is about growing up spiritually. Not an awareness of the spirit world; but, an awareness that we are all sentient beings and that we all matter, God will take care of the rest.

You mentioned that you were having a spiritual crisis (not knowing anymore and being confused by the things you read by other belief systems). The gnostics have thousands of years of complicated beliefs, that can confuse most. It says in the last days that even the elect would be deceived if that were possible (it is not by the way possible for the elect to be deceived for long). In the end my God told us to love God with all our heart and others as ourself. That is the only God I can accept to exist if he is good. If he is not good then we have no hope and I would rather go down and be destroyed doing what is right than have every goodie the universe has to give for being evil and selfish, not the me I want to be. Do the right thing for the right reason and spirits have no impact unless they are in agreement; but, you have to make the decision, not the spirits.

My daughter called me tonight, she is at her mothers. She is at her grandmothers to be more precise. In the house is one of her sisters, her mother and her grandmother. Her grandmother and I always got along and I love her deeply, she was a wonderful mother in law and we only had one arguement in 27 years and it was minor and a very long time ago. My ex-mother in law still loves me and I still love her. She will not allow her daughter to talk to her about the divorce and knows that I did nothing wrong. My daughter called me to say she was lonely and wanted to be here with me (she will be tomorrow). She is confused and all over the place emotionally, it is a lot to deal with at one time. I told her, deal with one thing at a time and focus, that you can handle. In addition, you don't have to deal with it today, wait and recover first.

We can be overwhelmed by our experiences, I like my advice. Focus on one thing at a time and be true to your head (not your heart alone). Decide what you believe to be right and believe what you know. If he is a good God then we would be able to independently verify what he told us to our satisfaction. Think about Thomas, he would not accept that Jesus had returned until he put his finger in the wound and Jesus accepted that as a valid response.

I worry that we live in a society that is too quick to accept spiritual experiences. They should be tested and we should check ourselves. They should not be sought because then we are too willing to follow. I am not aware of anyone in the bible asking to have communication with God, it happens and they are shocked. Moses' hair turned white, Job, well Job just came apart and God had to pick him back up. When I hear of someone having a spiritual experience and not questioning then I have questions and a lot of them. Crazy people don't ask if they are crazy. They don't check themselves.

Here is the thing, a God of love does not want you to be a sheep, he doesn't talk to sheep and they don't want to talk to him. God was a pillar of fire and smoke before the Israelites and Moses said they could talk to him, they chose not to and asked him to be a go between. Gnostics believe we need someone in between, that we need guides. My God does not need a in-between we have asked for them.

If you have not sought your experience, if you will insist upon making your own choices rather than being told, if you will do the right thing even if it means getting no goodies and facing trouble then no evil spirit can "guide" you wrong and you still have free will. I do hope this helps you. I will ask a question. If God asked you to spend one minute in the abyss and it meant that nobody else would ever have to experience that level of pain, would you? Is that the God you are talking to? Or are you talking to a God that says he will give you your hearts desire if you do what he has said is wrong and then explains why it is right (justification). Which God would you think is the "good" one, which is the God that you choose? I choose the first, the one that asks what I will do for others, the one that said there is no greater love than the one who will lose his life for his brother. That is the Christian God of the bible (not of the airwaves).

The gnostic god explains why you can do what you want and it is okay. The one that gives you the answers rather than asks you the questions. In the end we all get to pick what we want God to be. Some choose for their to be no God and no eternity, to return to the primordial soup, so to speak. Shouldn't they be allowed that choice? My daughter had a miscarriage (sorry, it may seem cold to talk about what is hurting me; but, I say we should try and get every good we can from every bad experience), sometimes a life that is growing is not meant to be here for long, it is too much for that sentience to exist as it is. It was not a combination of dna (emotional depth and variance) that could live and thrive.

Let us go back to first principles. I know I exist because I experience. I feel pain and the lack of pain. I find the lack of pain to be pleasure. Math again. There is no zero, there is a one and the one can experience two. Examine the experience of pain, it is more and less; therefore, there can be more than two. Wait, there are degrees of pleasure, unlimited. Hmmmm, we can do something with this. And the universe develops. Endless opportunity for continual joy and free will. Endless variation and no boredom, if it gets boring, toss in a little pain. A good solution to the eternity issue, the best there can be if we believe in love and truth rather than justifying what we want. It is fair because we get to choose.

It is late, I am trying to drink my wine and am preparing to deal with my daughters emotional issues tomorrow. I believe I have written enough for today. Be well and do good, that cannot go wrong.

I was in the middle of replying to you when my telstra ran out grrr....
So I topped up today and can now get back to our discussion (yay, he thinks)

Originally posted by OnTheLevel213

Originally posted by Rhebefree

I guess Im going to have to decide whether you are lying or not

Not necessarily. If someone is a Mason, their membership records exist somewhere. You could cross-reference those (assuming they exist) with SEC filings or the Australian equivalent.

(I'm hardly going to go out of y way to try find out your real name and lodge and whatnot, that would be inappropriate and very creepy)

Fair enough I guess... If masonry started up as a way to share secrets of architecture and stone masonry then why did it continue long after stone masonry was not needed.....

The operative Freemasons found that metaphors for construction were a good way to inculcate morality, and ritual was a good way to give education to illiterate but intellectually voracious tradesmen; in time, Freemasons were the most educated men of their day not among nobility or clergy. As the need for stone construction declined, learned men not among the building trades joined to preserve these traditions.

(Ok)

Whats wrong with Alex Jones? He's angry....

He's also very wrong very often. To paraphrase Marx, his programming is the opiate of the minority. Those who realize the official story contains important redactions and interpolations become hungry for the truth, and he provides something that, while false and often ridiculous, fits with their cynicism; Alex Jones takes the people who are angry enough to change something and redirects their energies into marginalization.

(I never thought of it that way.... Even so if it werent for his ravings I would never had learned about the monetary system and how it works and 9/11 (even tho Im not American) and other various conspiracies so I gotta give him credit for what he does)

I think maybe thats why so many of us conspiracy believers are just not open to the possibility that there is nothing sinister about masons we are just so angry at the manipulation and corruption and in-equality and we know that it is a secretive group that is causing it all, I guess masonry is an easy target something that provides a face to what we think TPTB must be....... I dont know

Exactly. He gets people tilting at windmills while the giants run around unimpeded.

(Yeah but atleast they, like me, have the building blocks to jump start further research)

So masons have no ties to Bohemian grove, tri-lateral commision, Bildeberg? Are you sure about that?

I'm sure you could fnid one or two Masons on the guest list, but on an organizational level, I am absolutely sure.

(Are you a supervisor guy? Or is that classified info?)

This site is interesting Bohemian grove

It would take another thread to go into everything I know that site is wrong about, and the list of things it's wrong about beyond what I know is probably book-length.

(enlighten me, go on you know you want to!)

I dont agree with everything on it, but it gives good info on bohemian grove among other things

Except where it's unequivocally false.

its a christian site, but since your protestant you will probably agree with it

My denomination falls outside the Protestant-Catholic divide.

(Mormon? I almost converted once untill I realised that I was only agreeing with the travelling "elder" because he had an awesome American accent (I love Americans, I dont care what people say, Americans rock!), which isnt a good basis to convert to anything

)

I know I'm in the minority, but I'm starting to believe that the Pope is a figurehead in actual Vatican administration. It doesn't make sense to me that a bunch of career theologians and ministers are suddenly promoted to head of state with very little actual training.

It wouldnt surprise me, the president is just a figurehead in the whitehouse, the prime-minister is just a figurehead in parliment, question is who is really behind the figure heads?

The money men.

(Yes but which money men? See I thought masons were the money men!!)

Ok, I suppose if an athiest wanted to join a lodge he could always start his own up, Would masonry allow that? An atheist chapter, or womens only chapter?

The first Mason to post in this thread was a member of a Masonic obedience that admitted both. They're not in amity with my kind of Freemasonry, but they do exist.

(Probably not where I live, which is besides the point because I would never join one, I dont know why I keep making an issue of it...... issue for issues sakes I guess)

So are you like the church, going out on missions all over the world to convert and Masonize the world

No. Not at all. Not one iota. Masonry does not recruit, and there are certainly no "Masonic missions". The only thing that causes our ranks to swell is a man who finds the fraternity admirable and desires to be counted among its members.

(Fair enough)

Except women who dont need masonizing, why is that?

Because fraternities are by definition male organizations.

(Yea but hardly anything remains true to its original gender based definitions anymore, guys can be stay at home mums, chicks can be firemen...... etc. Fraternities should get with the times man, broaden their horizens, "evolve" ideas or whatever..... Or not whatevers)

Possibly, but it seems simple to me, take an axe to the root of suffering, which is money, valueless peices of paper with no use except to raise up those who should not be raised up and oppress the many..... Burn it down

Billions of people would immediately starve to death if you did that.

(Not neccesarily, we could surprise you, besides with big daddy corp. out of the way earth could heal and go back to its natural rythms and humanity would be free to revert back to their roots..... Sigh, please dont burst my bubble, its all I have left!!)

If masons are simply men who have worked their way up in life

Not all of them have.

(Oh so you do accept low income workers too?)

Just like any religion, steer the organisation the right way

Using what?

(I dont know subliminal messages? Spell casting? I dont know, use your imagination!!)

make sure only those who are useful to your agenda get in

I can personally attest that if only world dominators are to be allowed entry into Freemasonry that this theory is a complete failure.

(? I think your missing some words there, but I see what you are saying, but dont you have pre-reqs? Well if you had lots of money and resources and wanted to bring about a "forced" evolution and a new world where only men who believed in service to a "god" could run the show, well who would be thought of as running the show, then wouldnt it make sense to invest in a group who's branches extended to most parts of the world, who's membership was made up of men who strived to become better men through good works in the community and service to "god", if "god" were to return wouldnt he choose these men to help restore order, a new world order..... Ok I'm rambling now, I'll stop!)

then when the time is right use them as a banner to carry out your final plans

That's what I've been trying to say. Freemasonry doesn't have a unified political or religious agenda, doesn't have all that much money, has no supra-regional administrative hierarchy, and doesn't move particularly quickly on administrative matters even when there is agreement. It's a pathetically inefficient method of effecting large-scale change; if it weren't for the (overblown) secrets, no one would be pointing a finger our way at all.

(Oh..... Ok then..... I'm trying to come up with more arguements, without resorting to "But your a mason!" but I'm drawing a blank!

oh well guess I'll just have to admit that I was possibly wrong..... Possibly, maybe...... wow, that felt weird)

Ok, but what if god doesnt want service? What if god just wants us to simply stop allowing suffering and evil men (and women) their thrones?

That God would want anything implies that service to God is a pursuable agenda.

(Dude I didnt mean it like that!! I meant maybe the creator doesnt need us or want us to need him/her/it, maybe all thats required is for us to take responsibility for our choices now and here, and allow the heaven we were given to be just that, our heaven....... Or something like that, I like what Bill Hicks said once "The world is like a ride at an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it, you think that it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills, and it's very brightly coloured, and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time, and they begin to question - is this real, or is this just a ride? And other people have remembered, and they come back to us. They say 'Hey! Don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because, this is just a ride.' And we...kill those people. Ha ha ha. 'Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride. SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry. Look at my big bank account and family. This just has to be real.' It's just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok. But it doesn't matter because: it's just a ride. And we can change it anytime we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings, and money. A choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourselves off. The eyes of love, instead, see all of us as one. Here's what you can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money that we spend on weapons and defence each year, and instead spend it feeding, clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, for ever, in peace."

Its a sobering thought, as for them condescending masons, well again it could simply be due to needing to name that which we cannot see but know to exist

I understand that, but it's a habit that fringe theorists (a term which probably encompasses conspiracy theorists and myself) need to break if they want any of the mainstream acceptance needed for real change. Most people have a one-strike-you're-out policy on accuracy in non-traditional arguments.

(true I guess, I tend to prefer the absurd and forget sometimes that most people dont share this leaning, possibly why I like this site so much, theres more people like me here than in my reality)

I mean doing what you do is great and all but dont you think its a bit like fighting your enemy by arming him? Like fighting fire with fire?

I don't see the tendency to form groups as the enemy any more than Louisville Slugger is to blame if I get bludgeoned tomorrow.

(Not the tendancy to form groups, throwing money at a problem that is caused by money or rather the pursuit of it)

I dont know what it is you do to help society except donating money because thats the only thing I have read masons highlight, but money and the over abundance of for some and the lack thereof for most is the problem

Which is why Masonic hospitals operate for free.

(Thats something I didnt know about, I will hold my tongue in future!)

eliminate money from the picture and people would have the opportunity and right to really work hard to provide for their families, we would have to work with nature to produce the things we need, and it would be more equal too because then anybody could have their own home and the ability to produce their own food......

We more or less tried doing that. Things were even worse then.

(When? When have we been free to live in this way, properly, without displacing people who already had it figured out and would most likely have taught us how to do it properly had we been open to the possibility that our concept of "civil society" was/is stupid??? I cannot think of a time when western society wasnt obsessed with the accumilation of wealth)

There would be an explosion of information, free energy, earths cycles, plants, truths once kept back from the general populace would be free to spread and it would be so wonderfull........
Well, in theory

In a theory that ignores several elements of reality.

(Psphh! Who needs reality? Reality has given us what? Fast cars, grocery stores, air conditioning? Not to mention disease, pollution, mutated food that leads to all kinds of imbalances within the human and ecological systems and on and on and on..... Scuse me but I think its time for the dreamers to emerge, the idealists, the non-joiners, those who fantasise about a world where every humans potential is free to take root and grow uninhibited by colour or rank or gender or social obligation, to rise up and stop allowing "reality" to shape this world, Realists have had their turn. Its our turn now.)

Ok, I'll believe you aslong as your not a "Pure" blood, your not are you?

Well, it's a pretty deep red.

(Thats good, I was suspecting your answer to be "well its a lovely shade of blue" :lol

aww, so if I shutup youll come back more often?

No, if I quit working I'd be here all the time. Well, all the time until my wife comes home at five and kills me.

(that wouldnt be good)

In closing;
In regards to my un-realistic expectations of what it would be like to just "eliminate" the monetary system, I have just finished reading 'Fight club' by Chuck Palahniuk and I'd like to share a couple of quotes from the book that struck a chord with me;
"I see the strongest and the smartest men who have ever lived,".... "and these men are pumping gas and waiting tables"
"You have a class of young strong men and women, and they want to give their lives to something. Advertising has these people chasing cars and clothes they dont need. Generations have been working in jobs they hate, just so they can buy what they really dont need"
"We dont have a great war in our generation, or a great depression, but we do, we have a great war of the spirit. We have a great revolution against the culture. The great depression is our lives. We have a spiritual depression"
"Imagine, when we call a strike and everyone refuses to work until we redistribute the wealth of the world"
"Imagine hunting elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of the rockefeller center"
This will forever be my favourite book.

I could quote all night but I wont, I think you get the idea!
Anyho, I think its safe to say that you have succeeded in educating me on masonry, I wont be so quick to point the finger your guys way next time!
And that is the closest I will ever get to admitting a mason is right!!

Originally posted by AQuestion
God is a funny guy, he built us so he has the owners manual and lets us choose thing for ourselves. He also lets us know him in ways that we are able to; but, that is different for all of us. I have met quite a few people who have had spiritual experiences. I know one lady (a dear friend up north) whose husband killed himself. She told me that one day she was ready to die and God spoke to her. He came because she said if there is a God I need to know or I don't want to live. He chose to reach down. Sometimes we need to hear him for ourselves.

Thats sort of what got my journey rolling for me, as a teenager I could not understand why God would put us here and then not give us a way to connect with him on a personal level where we could hear him and see him, I believed in him but I was very angry with him for giving me ears that didnt work the way I wanted them to, I would have given up my actual hearing and sight, even touch, just to hear him speak or see him in a tangible way, I spent years trying to justify why he wouldnt speak back, then spent years doing everything I could to try and elicit a verbal response from him, doing things that I really regret doing now, it wasnt until after I had my baby that I heard him, although admittedly it wasnt audible, it was more like thought but not, if that makes sense. Afterwards I wrote down what I could remember and its been happening on and off since then. I know when its not me, because when its me I literally have to think, but when its not the words just flow and have a different kind of attitude, even so I always question I guess because it isnt audible....

As for being bonkers, I have been all my life and wouldn't have it any other way. One of the greatest experiences in my life happened in Baker, California. I was driving to Vegas from L.A. and was beginning to have a heart attack (while the divorce was going on and too many other things). I pulled over and was ready to die. I should explain that my doctors had predicted such a death (or a stroke) every time they saw me (blood pressure they see once a year and blood thick as oil - triglycerides of 1,000 like my mother had who died from an anurism). I pulled over, parked at the Starbucks and waited to die, alone, in Baker. I did not call anyone; but, I did reflect on my life. I was happy with what I had done and was ready to go. I forgave the ex, her boyfriend and everyone who ever hurt me and I meant it from the bottom of my heart. In that moment I felt as if all the pressure went away and had a very spiritual moment. It was a Christian spiritual moment and not a gnostic moment, nobody led me anywhere, I knew the truth in my heart, I didn't need to be told or follow anyone.

Forgiveness is hard, everytime I think I have forgiven certain people, the fact that I havent makes itself known in some way, I dont think I could face death quite as calmly as what you did, if Christians are right about heaven and hell I doubt I'd get past the pearly gates, I might be eligible for limbo I guess for atleast attempting to forgive certain people and becoming a better person, either way when I die I'll be hoping like hell I get to be reincarnated as some kind of wild animal you know? I dont want to wake up in some cosmic heaven or fiery hell or dark limbo, I want to be a bird or a dolphin or tiger or something, something free.... Humans think they are free, but we arent.... But Im rambling again!

Some people hear God on occassion, I cannot explain why, I am limited in knowledge like everyone else. Here is what I do know, you cannot turn crazy off, it is 24/7. I did not see you say that this was the case for you. There are many, many people that have had spiritual experiences of varying nature. For all spiritual experiences I think the question is the same, are you able to choose, to make the decision or are you being told. Ask yourself if it is true to your heart rather than to what you want. If you are true to your heart you will make the right decisions and not harm others or yourself, you will do what is best. That is how we should all work even if we do not have a spiritual experience. Or at least that is what I think.

No its not 24/7 I dont think I'd be able to function! But again its not audible, so maybe it is just all inside my head (just me and not spiritual at all) in which case it would be bonkers because thinking its god when it could just be me..... But anyway, I think you have hit the nail on the head here, theres a verse in Dueteronomy that says something to the effect of god placing the truth or his word or something in our hearts, not in the heavens somewhere not on some mountain top but right here in our hearts, so that we would know whats right ourselves, I do think we would rather climb a mountain for truth rather than quietly listening to our hearts because, well I dont know for sure but possibly then we can shift the blame of choice on to our preachers or guru's or "guides" like; "well they said this was right, I was only doing what I was told" kind of thing. And I know for myself, for a long time I was looking for something to follow, its only recently that Ive been taking responsibility for my choices and telling myself that its up to me to make my life better, no one else.

[qoute]In order to stay on topic, I am going to talk about the different type of spiritual experiences. The Buddhists believe in Kundalini and many report having experienced it. People in the Amazon and Africa often have guided spirtual experiences with the help of Shamans. There are others that "channel" or communicate with spirits. There are those who take the chemical known as '___' and have spiritual experiences (usually bad). An finally there are those who have Near Death Experiences or NDE's.

In all of these experiences there is the same risk that you described, how do you really know who you are talking to. If it isn't asked then it should be. The choices are really limited as to whether or not the experience is real (and there are those who don't believe life is real and think we are in the matrix). Firstly, did you try to have the experience? Secondly, are you crazy. You don't have to wonder if you have been hypnotised (that won't cause a spiritual experience) and you don't have to wonder if you have been under mind control (that takes years and requires that you first be broken down completely and the fed your new answers (doesn't involve a spiritual experiences). Finally, you have to ask if it is a real experience and accept that it could be. I think that is the toughest one.

in all honesty I had been seeking it, for years all I wanted was god, direct, real and personal, I had never been interested in the things my peers were interested in (boys, shopping, makeup etc.) I just wanted god. When he didnt speak or reveal himself to me, I rebelled, when that didnt work I tried to "join" him (I wont go into detail for obvious reasons) when I failed even at that I spiralled deeper and deeper into depression until I got pregnant, when I was six weeks into the pregnancy I had a scare and had to go to the hospital, I got to see my daughter when all she was was a beating heart, and I knew I wanted to live, god or no god I wanted to live.....
But I started seeking god again after she was born, even went back to church, but it didnt seem right, untill I did something that I'd read this guy did (conversations with god). I sat down and cleared my head of all thoughts, then I wrote all my questions down in a notebook and prayed, to my surprise I got a response, now whether it was me or god or a spirit I still struggle with, but it has never told me to do anything (That I didnt already know I should be doing) it has never been negative or required anything of me it has always been encouraging and positive so although I feel insane when I do it, I will probably continue doing it

If you have eliminated the probable then all that is left is the impossible for supernatural. Now, who are you hearing does not matter if you are the one that gets to make the choices and no threats or promises are made to you. God does not threaten or promise cookies as incentives to those who speak to him, he promises your life to be harder. The guy I mentioned who is sleeping on my couch, he had a spiritual experience, He used to take ecstasy ( a lot of it and I mean a lot), he had anger issues and was not the kind of person he wanted to be. He said he saw Jesus in others and met him. It changed his life and he changed his ways for the better. He played professional poker and made money, he is not crazy. I know, he is very strategic and logical.

It would be easy for me to believe that his experience was the result of all of the ecstasy; but, what does it matter. He made better decisions, not worse ones. He became more peaceful, not violent. He became more productive, not less. You mentioned that you were not told to do things; but, were instead asked questions. You got to supply the answers. The moment you feel you are being led to do something you do not believe is right, say no. God gave us free will and saying no is therefore a valid decision. I mentioned that I am a pacifist in my last post, I will not kill anyone, ever and not even if I were in the military. I would rather be killed than kill. That is my life decision. My God would like that answer. Problem is you have to be faced with the choice to know that you will stick by it.

Yea most of my questions were answered by "What do you think?" kindve way, I always thought it was just being vague and it frustrated me that it wouldnt give me specifics until oneday he was like "why do you keep asking that? Do you really want a blow by blow account of creation to now? Do you really want a set of rules and regulations? History has already been recorded and you dont need me to tell you what is good and what is not you know these things already!" he was quite adament that I figure things out for myself, in fact the more I talk/type to you about all this the less doubtfull I am about him/her/it

Abraham was asked by God to sacrifice his son, Isaac. Abraham took his son to the mountain, made and alter and prepared to kill him. God told him to stop. At the time child sacrifice was common to the "gods". God then explained that he wasn't that kind of God, the story shows that we have a God who doesn't want us to harm others and wants us to understand that he doesn't want us to do bad because we are faced with a spirit telling us to. God told the Israelites to go into Palestine and kill everyone, they killed fewer and fewer as each town was conquered. What if they had refused to kill anyone? Do you think they would not have had Israel anyways? He would have found a way. They needed to seperate themselves from their societal definition of themselves and begin to learn right from wrong on a societal level. When they failed Jesus came and explained it was not about rules but was about heart. It is not about doing what we are told, it is not about giving up self, it is about growing up spiritually. Not an awareness of the spirit world; but, an awareness that we are all sentient beings and that we all matter, God will take care of the rest.

Wait, this I dont understand, are you saying that god did tell them to do all that stuff? I'd just chalked it up to fallible men twisting words and circumstances to favour certain people, not actual truth.... I dont understand why you would believe that god would tell people to do that, unless I misunderstand and you mean that there is the voice of god and there is the voice of God and they just got them confused? I dont think God would tell us to do something that would harm others just to see whether we'd do it, but I do agree that its not about doing as we are told but its about heart and spiritual growth.

You mentioned that you were having a spiritual crisis (not knowing anymore and being confused by the things you read by other belief systems). The gnostics have thousands of years of complicated beliefs, that can confuse most. It says in the last days that even the elect would be deceived if that were possible (it is not by the way possible for the elect to be deceived for long). In the end my God told us to love God with all our heart and others as ourself. That is the only God I can accept to exist if he is good. If he is not good then we have no hope and I would rather go down and be destroyed doing what is right than have every goodie the universe has to give for being evil and selfish, not the me I want to be. Do the right thing for the right reason and spirits have no impact unless they are in agreement; but, you have to make the decision, not the spirits.

Who are the elect? So many people believe different things, which of them are correct?
I do wonder if spirits try to make themselves out to be more powerfull than they actually are, the thought of demons has always scared me esspecially when I was a child, but now I am less scared and more curious.... not enough to invoke one tho I dont want that kind of spiritual experiance!

My daughter called me tonight, she is at her mothers. She is at her grandmothers to be more precise. In the house is one of her sisters, her mother and her grandmother. Her grandmother and I always got along and I love her deeply, she was a wonderful mother in law and we only had one arguement in 27 years and it was minor and a very long time ago. My ex-mother in law still loves me and I still love her. She will not allow her daughter to talk to her about the divorce and knows that I did nothing wrong. My daughter called me to say she was lonely and wanted to be here with me (she will be tomorrow). She is confused and all over the place emotionally, it is a lot to deal with at one time. I told her, deal with one thing at a time and focus, that you can handle. In addition, you don't have to deal with it today, wait and recover first.

We can be overwhelmed by our experiences, I like my advice. Focus on one thing at a time and be true to your head (not your heart alone). Decide what you believe to be right and believe what you know. If he is a good God then we would be able to independently verify what he told us to our satisfaction. Think about Thomas, he would not accept that Jesus had returned until he put his finger in the wound and Jesus accepted that as a valid response.

Its very good advice thankyou

I worry that we live in a society that is too quick to accept spiritual experiences. They should be tested and we should check ourselves. They should not be sought because then we are too willing to follow. I am not aware of anyone in the bible asking to have communication with God, it happens and they are shocked. Moses' hair turned white, Job, well Job just came apart and God had to pick him back up. When I hear of someone having a spiritual experience and not questioning then I have questions and a lot of them. Crazy people don't ask if they are crazy. They don't check themselves.

I agree, we are so eager to experiance something, anything, that we grab hold of the first thing that comes our way without questioning it, that is why the ascension thing worries me, because a lot of people are talking about an awakening that will take our spirits from our current bodies and either joining some consioussness or something or being given new bodies, that coupled with other things I have picked up here and there.... I dont know the whole thing just seems fishy. I dont know with God though, Ive never had God physically appear to me or speak to me through a burning bush or anything like that but it doesnt make what did happen any less real, and I did ask for it had been for years, so maybe I am still looking for something to follow, I dont know, if I am though I'll be dissapointed because whatever it is wont let me follow! I have to decide for myself what the right way to live is and choose for myself how I interpret things, the responsibility is all mine dangit!

Here is the thing, a God of love does not want you to be a sheep, he doesn't talk to sheep and they don't want to talk to him. God was a pillar of fire and smoke before the Israelites and Moses said they could talk to him, they chose not to and asked him to be a go between. Gnostics believe we need someone in between, that we need guides. My God does not need a in-between we have asked for them.

That makes sense to me, I think its similar to the conclusion I came to in my OP, we dont need "Christs" or guides to come and save us or be our intercessory, we just need to start using our commonsense, our own sense of whats fundementally right.

If you have not sought your experience, if you will insist upon making your own choices rather than being told, if you will do the right thing even if it means getting no goodies and facing trouble then no evil spirit can "guide" you wrong and you still have free will. I do hope this helps you. I will ask a question. If God asked you to spend one minute in the abyss and it meant that nobody else would ever have to experience that level of pain, would you? Is that the God you are talking to? Or are you talking to a God that says he will give you your hearts desire if you do what he has said is wrong and then explains why it is right (justification). Which God would you think is the "good" one, which is the God that you choose? I choose the first, the one that asks what I will do for others, the one that said there is no greater love than the one who will lose his life for his brother. That is the Christian God of the bible (not of the airwaves).

This is encouraging, although I did seek my experiance I do insist upon making my own choices (and he insists that I do!), he (or she) has never offered rewards or punishments for any of the actions I take, and I dont believe what I am communicating with would manipulate me by telling me not to do something then tempt me with a small plot of my own land in return for doing what he has already said not to do, infact he wouldnt tell me to do or not to do anything full stop, if I ask if I should do something his response has always been "does it extend life?", as to whether I would face the abyss for a time so that no-one else would have to? In a heart beat! Even if you removed my daughter from the equation, in a heart beat. But what do you mean by abyss? Hell?

The gnostic god explains why you can do what you want and it is okay. The one that gives you the answers rather than asks you the questions. In the end we all get to pick what we want God to be. Some choose for their to be no God and no eternity, to return to the primordial soup, so to speak. Shouldn't they be allowed that choice? My daughter had a miscarriage (sorry, it may seem cold to talk about what is hurting me; but, I say we should try and get every good we can from every bad experience), sometimes a life that is growing is not meant to be here for long, it is too much for that sentience to exist as it is. It was not a combination of dna (emotional depth and variance) that could live and thrive.

I dont think it is cold to talk about things that are happening in your life that are painfull, I think its brave, we let loose every emotion and passion and run with every desire that moves us these days, yet most of us cant or wont face our inner pain or hurt and tend instead to talk around it.... So dont feel like I will judge you

Let us go back to first principles. I know I exist because I experience. I feel pain and the lack of pain. I find the lack of pain to be pleasure. Math again. There is no zero, there is a one and the one can experience two. Examine the experience of pain, it is more and less; therefore, there can be more than two. Wait, there are degrees of pleasure, unlimited. Hmmmm, we can do something with this. And the universe develops. Endless opportunity for continual joy and free will. Endless variation and no boredom, if it gets boring, toss in a little pain. A good solution to the eternity issue, the best there can be if we believe in love and truth rather than justifying what we want. It is fair because we get to choose.

It is late, I am trying to drink my wine and am preparing to deal with my daughters emotional issues tomorrow. I believe I have written enough for today. Be well and do good, that cannot go wrong.

Im not sure if this is the right thing to say but this last part about boredom and pain reminded me of something I once read in a book (Monster(monsters?) by Chuck palahniuk) bassically that we were gods tv programme and that we should never ever be boring because the minute we got boring he would kill us.... A bit more morbid than what you were saying but essentially the same, although I dont agree, I dont think you have to have pain (emotional that is) in order to not be bored or to grow, I think challenges help with that, but the challenges dont have to be emotionally painfull.... Or maybe Im just a wuss!!

All my best wishes and love and goodwill to you and your daughter

reply to post by Rhebefree


Rhebefree,

You realize that no one can answer all your questions because the purpose of life is that it is a personal spiritual experience, right? It is up to YOU to find the answers that fit for you. I understand that is the purpose of this thread - to receive some discourse that might trigger some understanding. Therefore, its important and I commend you for starting it. However, I caution you to really take some time (more than a day or a week) to think about the things you have been told in the thread. Don't judge them, just mentally explore them...

While my history in this wisdom has been different than most (irrelevant at this point), I can say that we share one central truth - once I fully and completely grasped the knowledge and wisdom within these schools, suddenly my entire life MADE SENSE. My pain, my torment, my choices, my successes, my family, my life...everything. It all made complete and perfect sense. Even more important....the world made sense.

Isn't that, ultimately, what you are looking for?

Originally posted by CIAGypsy
reply to post by Rhebefree

 

Rhebefree,

You realize that no one can answer all your questions because the purpose of life is that it is a personal spiritual experience, right? It is up to YOU to find the answers that fit for you. I understand that is the purpose of this thread - to receive some discourse that might trigger some understanding. Therefore, its important and I commend you for starting it. However, I caution you to really take some time (more than a day or a week) to think about the things you have been told in the thread. Don't judge them, just mentally explore them...

While my history in this wisdom has been different than most (irrelevant at this point), I can say that we share one central truth - once I fully and completely grasped the knowledge and wisdom within these schools, suddenly my entire life MADE SENSE. My pain, my torment, my choices, my successes, my family, my life...everything. It all made complete and perfect sense. Even more important....the world made sense.

Isn't that, ultimately, what you are looking for?

edit on 16-4-2011 by CIAGypsy because: (no reason given)

I understand that its up to me to figure out some things, but what I am trying to figure out is if there is one central, main, important truth out there that anyone could understand, something that would.... I dont know, change things? I obviously dont know enough about the mystery religions, so perhaps posting what I did was a bit premature, but Ive read that these secret organisations and mystery schools have been around for centuries, Ive read that they have shaped society for centuries, building up and tearing down, and I look at how society is and I look at history and I see all the pain and oppression, the corruption and the in-justice and I think two things; "Secret societies, if this is what they have shaped, are evil" and; "the God of secret societies; if he has helped them do all this, is evil, and I want no part in his ascension" and so thats where I began with this part of my journey. I know I have a ways to go, I understand that I may have some assumptions wrong and it will take a little longer than a week to come to a spiritual understanding that will bring me some peace of mind, without overwhelming doubt. But I will keep questioning those who are ok with being questioned, I will keep sifting through the mountains of information to try and understand why the world is at the place it is at, and I will keep relying on my intuition to tell me when some peice of information is dodgy, because untill god appears to me in the flesh, or in some tangible pillar of fire kindve way, then all I have to go on is intuition. And right now intuition is telling me that there is something very wrong with the whole ascension spin, something is wrong with our dependance on leaders and guru's and gods and somethings gotta give. We have been dependant on our leaders, spiritual or otherwise, our gods and our hope for messiahs for centuries, yet what has changed? Nothing! Through all this history not once has our gods and messiahs and our "elders" reached down to help pull us out of this stinking pitt we call culture! Why? Does it benefit them to have us down here? Could it be that our myriad of gods can do nothing? Could it be that they dont exist? And if they dont exist what does? We do, you and I, joe blogs down the street, and our problems, collective or otherwise, are all too real and no-one is saving us, all we get is promises. So it is up to us, not our leaders, not our gods and gurus and guides, but us, to change things for us all. It is physically, spiritually and mentally up to us to tear down the high places and worship no more these gods and gurus and leaders who have shaped society, who have led humanity to this place, on this path, who have left us with the task of cleaning up their waste, their mess..... Tear it all down, and lets stop seeking to be as they and accept that we are what we are and we dont need to be anything but ourselves, we are the standard.....
Anyway, thanks again for your contribution