Qur'an burning free speech in America?

Maybe it's the Canadian in me...

I think burning a book is really a non issues. If you are doing it to keep warm, in private because you have a strong distaste for it, etc.

However, I have fairly strong issues with the intent to cause hate. Which is what I think the Pastor was trying to do.

In my opinion, inciting hate (by any means) should be a punishable crime. Many dictators and tyrants did nothing more than 'incite hate'....keep that in mind.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


How many different ways are there to spell 'Koran' and 'Gadafi'?

Is this thread about a theoretical book that a certain pastor didn't actually burn and then some very real muslims who killed people in reality?

I must be mistaken, it seems like American's are being blamed for possible hate related activities that don't exist. (big surprise)

reply to post by fredvcall


Literaly hundreds. I saw the BBC spell Gadafi, the Taliban, K,Q, C.... Koran , god knows how many ways over the last few months.
I accept its harder to accurately spell arabic words in Western languages because arabic uses a totaly different character system for its language. But still, you would have thought that there would be standardised translations by now, but there just arent.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by Maslo
So much for the "religion of peace".

Blaming the religion is as bad as blaming the pastor, IMO. It's not a religion that killed innocent people, it's a few extremists who have hijacked a religion. If you're going to blame Islam for these killings, then we must blame Christianity for Fred Phelps.



So much for the "religion of love"...

Burning the Quran is free speech and should be protected as such, IMO. That doesn't mean it's smart or that it adds anything good to the world. It doesn't. In fact, I think it tears at the fabric of goodwill in the world. If that is the pastor's intent, then he succeeded... But tell me, what kind of "man of God" is a pastor who wishes to destroy the good will in the world? What kind of "Christian" is that? Not one that I would want representing my religion.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree. Most extremely religious people have been indoctrinated since birth with religious scripture until they believe it as 100% fact. Now when this happens, you see people doing all forms of crazy nonsense, like murdering innocent people and blaming it on someone half a planet away. As for goodwill, there is very little of that in today's society.

If followers of religion feel the need to murder people because someone finds their faith absurd, then it really speaks volumes about the religion itself; how can a supposed peaceful way of life breed such hate? It reminds me of a bunch of children fighting to death over the monkey bars on the playground. And I'm not just talking about Islam here -- almost every major religion takes division to the extreme.

A lot of people have asked how it would feel if they pissed on family photos or burned flags, bibles, and other material objects. Well, I would feel that whoever is doing this is incredibly immature and just looking for a reaction, but I would never in my life think about murdering innocent people because of something that means nothing in the long run. It is ink on a paper, and I'm pretty sure any celestial being would be disgusted with the immaturity of its followers, I know I would.

People demanding for this guy's silence are opening a can of worms I really don't think they understand, do you really want to live in a world where you're afraid to or it is illegal to criticize obvious mental psychosis?
Any belief system that annihilates reason and logic to this level is vile.

reply to post by peck420


Inciting violence should be a crime, not hate.

oh well s..t happens ..... just as bad as the muslims burning our poppies on armistice day in the uk ....

Originally posted by broahes
Reply to post by SpeachM1litant

 

burning a book didn't lead to anyones death, people with a deep mental disturbance did. If someone goes out and kills someone because of something I say or do.. Not my fault. Period.. Anyone that doesn't understand that can gladly line up and hand over their freedoms.. I'll keep minen thanks.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

Kind of makes you wonder then why so many soldiers go out and kill people over things the politicians say and do, and tell them to do.

For your statement to be true, and I am not saying it's not true, it would require people interchanging you in this case with people like Gadafi, where our government tells us we have an obligation to bomb and kill and destroy things in a foreign land because of things he says and does, or conversely people like Obama telling us we must go out and do these things.

The whole world when it comes to violence and war seems to be based off of and justified by what people say and do.

Oddly it's usually being directed by someone who considers themselves blameless in the direction of a violence based 'solution' directed against someone who should be entirely blamed.

Perfect example once again Obama (blameless) for sending war planes and covert operatives, bombing and killing, Gadaffi (entirely to blame) for the reaction.

Evidently the leaders of the free world are not as progressive as you in your thinking, or perhaps you are coming up a bit short in your own.

One thing is for sure everything we all do has a much greater ripple effect than many would like to or feel comfortable taking responsibility for.

reply to post by RSF77


Those nut jobs just saw a video provided by their local neighbor hood terrorist and saw a book that looked like it was being burnt. who knows if it actually happened. Then they will told kill all infidels and pointed in the right direction. (towards the people the terrorists want killed) The old twist your religion to suit your needs. Literally the oldest trick in the book Most of them don't have internet access and few of them can read.

The nut jobs when killed and after their weapons are taken off of them will all Instantly become innocent civilians that were murdered by our soldiers. That's my assessment of the situation.

Originally posted by DisappearCompletely
I'm sorry but I have to disagree.

Mind telling me specifically what you disagree with? That the religion isn't to blame?

A religion is a set of beliefs, rules, rites and rituals centering around a deity. A religion cannot kill anyone. It's benign. Religions don't kill people. People do.

almost every major religion takes division to the extreme.

The religions don't act. Can't act. Can't kill. The PEOPLE take division to the extreme. The PEOPLE act and kill.

A lot of people have asked how it would feel if they pissed on family photos or burned flags, bibles, and other material objects. Well, I would feel that whoever is doing this is incredibly immature and just looking for a reaction, but I would never in my life think about murdering innocent people because of something that means nothing in the long run.

The VAST majority of Muslims feel the same way you do. They would NEVER in their lives think about murdering someone over the burning of the Quran. Yet it sounds like you blame their religion instead of the PEOPLE who are actually doing this...

People demanding for this guy's silence are opening a can of worms I really don't think they understand, do you really want to live in a world where you're afraid to or it is illegal to criticize obvious mental psychosis?

Wait, what? Did you read my post? I said this pastor's actions should be protected under the First Amendment. How is that demanding his silence?

Generalizing appear often in here. A pastor should not taken as whole christians or whole american. So some people react violencelly should not taken as whole muslim.
Being smart is good to get what you want and being wise is good to have a peace and happy life.

An ignorant will always be an ignorant no matter what his/her nationality or religion/belief.

reply to post by MikeboydUS


The Precedent has already been established: Brandenburg v. Ohio

It would have to provoke immediate breach of peace/lawless action/incitement of violence/a clear and present danger--which it didn't. It *could* have, but it didn't, and that is the distinction in the ruling.

And the fact that what did happen as a result happened in another country...well, not sure that is relevant in a US court of law, but i could be wrong about that...

~

For the record, i agree that he did do it as a provocation--and probably only why he did it--that it was a stupid, disgusting act aimed at stirring up people, and that he does have a first amendment right to do it. But the SCOTUS has visited these things already, and what he did is legal.

He's a pseudo-Christian and just as intolerant of Muslims as some of those extremists are to others. Sickening Hypocrisy and ignorance.

I think people should only be able to talk about last night's American Idol, the traffic on the freeway, the weather, sports and their work. Anything else is likely to offend someone and incite them to violence. The 1st Amendment was only intended to protect simple forms of speech that were not controversial because at the time people were only allowed to discuss controversies and were prevented from engaging in small talk.

To everyone that is jumping at the chance to limit freedom of speech - you're the change I'd like to make in this world.

I think we should outlaw Koran burning the moment that the Muslim nations outlaw murdering Americans due to Koran burning.

One is a book, the other is a human life so I get how the posters here might be confused as to which one is more valuable.

reply to post by ladykay


And quite a lot of Britons would have happily hung the scumbags who did that .....

So a good example of how we react when we are the targets of deliberate and provocative acts of offense.

reply to post by Essan


Yes, just have a look at how some people responded to the Muslims burning poppies... It's a clear case of double standards.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Here are some quotes from that thread:

Get this scum out of our country or we will.
someone should DO something to these protesters.
The only answer is to remove every single one of them.
Destroy them

And that's the ones that didn't get edited as extreme violation of the T&C.

Funny, alot of the posters on here upset with a Pastor buning the Quaran, are the same ones applauding Wikileaks and Rolling Stone for doing basically the sam damn thing by putting our troops in harms way due to thier actions.........the luncay double standard continues here

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


Yeah, I'm calling crap on any limitation of free speech here. Burning the quran didn't cause the deaths of the others - people reacting to it in stupid fashion caused the deaths of others.

This illustration has already been made, but someone burns a quran - riots break out, people die, etc. Someone burns a bible? Nah, not so much.

You have to give credit (or blame, in this case), where it is due. The people committing atrocities can't blame their behaviors on anyone else, there's simply no excuse for it. The guilty need to be dealt with accordingly.

A line has to be drawn somewhere, otherwise if you welch on your rights everytime someone is offended (or has learned that they can throw fits and act stupid to get their way - hello, this is a form of terrorism), then you will soon have no rights as someone is always offended by everything.

The whole situation is retarded. I've got an idea - next time someone desecrates a quran, one-up them - burn TWO of their holy books: "Take that, douchebags!"

I guess the real question is:

Does burning a religious text with the intent to incite violence fall under free speech or hate speech?

Personally I think it would be the latter. Lets say it was Jews burning the bible? What about Muslims burning the Torah? If you want to buy a book and destroy it fine. But once you make it a public spectacle in the fashion this "paster" did, you've gone over the edge and are inciting racial or religious hatred.

And lets not forget for a second that when this "pastor" burned the Koran he wasn't just singling out practicing Muslims, this was racial hatred at it's best.

This was completely calculated to get the response they got. Piss off the fanatics and this is what you get, and now they are saying they will put Mohamed on trial. Gee, i wonder how the extremists will react. I honestly think most of you who think this is just fine (not necessarily talking about ATS users) would cry foul if it were another holy book being burned.

What this dirtbag is doing is calculated to show how the extremists react, but attempts to paint all muslims, and really all Arabs, with that same brush. Fine, this "pastor" is a perfect example of the average christian then. Same with Jim Jones.

The second that guy burnt the Koran he stooped to their level. Or the second he became a pastor.