A race of subterranean dwarves

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


I found this on USGS each number represents the number Kilometers thick the earth's crust (ie part that isn't molten) at each point.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b4402135e8f0.jpg[/atsimg]

As far as I know the deepest we have ever gone is a 2.5mile deep gold mine in South Africa.

Is it unreasonable there are whole ecosystems we don't know about given this? I don't think so.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by Shamatt

Howerver, my loggic tells me that it is not possible to live that deep underground and never evver surface. Nothing can grow at such depths of any real value as there is no sun light, so what do these people eat?.

Is this a fact, or an assumption?

Why do you insist I label my thoughts? You read what I wrote that answers your question, does it not?

I don't understand why people get so aggresive just because others have different ideas or beleifs. This is the sort of behaviour which screws our world up.

Originally posted by Shamatt

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by Shamatt

Howerver, my loggic tells me that it is not possible to live that deep underground and never evver surface. Nothing can grow at such depths of any real value as there is no sun light, so what do these people eat?.

Is this a fact, or an assumption?

Why do you insist I label my thoughts? You read what I wrote that answers your question, does it not?

I don't understand why people get so aggresive just because others have different ideas or beleifs. This is the sort of behaviour which screws our world up.

I apologize if I am coming across as aggressive. That is definitely not my intention.

My intention is to challenge your thoughts, discuss them using philosophically based logic, and determine a better outlook (if not for both of us, at least for myself).

It is a VERY rare event where I stand firmly in my belief of something. Everything I believe is fluid and fully subject to change. Most of what I "believe" is less of a belief, and more of a probability function assigning a "percent of belief" to it as a scenario.

My last post to you was meant to challenge the logic of your assumption that nothing can live far below the Earths surface. As well, I wanted to point that if we are to logically apply any assumptions, they should be applied based on what we have learned thus far by experience, not by whatever other factors are driving the notions. Logically, there is no other way to see it (based on the prior experiences of our collective scientific knowledge) other than it is not only possible that life exists far into the crust, but that it thrives using novel and unique methods to extract energy from the environment. Not matter how harsh the environment, there are extremophiles that thrive.

Seriously...my apologies. If you wish that I no longer respond to you in this thread, not a problem. Just let me know if we are on a nerve and I will carry on my conversations with you when you are ready.

reply to post by Jinglelord


If you want my opinion, if there are chambers that are open at depths of 10-20miles (that chart is miles, correct?), then it is very probable that there will be significant heating of the Earths core. Of course, at that depth you likely will have a lot of lava tubes and old magma chambers. This would provide for some highly rich resources to be "mined". And there is most certainly water and underground lakes that are in these chambers, etc.

There are multiple legends from the world over about highly refined cave and tunnel systems that predate whatever civilization is there now. I would have to check with Zorgon, but I believe that our government is operating (clandestinely) at these types of depths, possibly via this tunnel system.

Who knows. I know i saw a nuclear powered drill with a big, huge USAF logo on it. What purpose does the Air Force have with a nuclear tunneling machine?

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Thank you for yur responce. Lets keep up the debate. I will try and not to misunderstand your tone, this is a life long issue for me.

OK, lets look at tunnels 10 to 20KM below the surface. Have you heard of the geothermal gradient? Thanks to wikipedia for the following information:

The geothermal gradient is the rate at which the Earth's temperature increases with depth, indicating heat flowing from the Earth's warm interior to its cooler surface. Away from tectonic plate boundaries, it is 25–30°C per km of depth in most of the world.[1]

So at 10km below the surface you have temperatures of 250 - 300°C. How can any mamal live in those conditions.

Edit to say: You mentioned miles, which are longer than kilometers, but wikipedia is in KM. So at 10 to 20 miles below the surface it would be even hotter than I have shown here.

reply to post by Shamatt


AND

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


I apologize for any confusion that topo map is in Kilometers (1.6 per mile so 10 kilometers is about 6.2 miles).

From reading about the deep gold mines in South Africa it is apparent it becomes inhospitable very fast the deeper you go. If I recall correctly 2.5 miles was about 150 degrees Fahrenheit and the rock walls were even hotter. They do still work at that level with air conditioning. (Gold is very lucrative I guess).

Now looking at the map you can see South Africa is close to if not in one of the thicker areas (40 KM if I'm reading it correctly).

Okay so with the crust being very thick even with super mammal powers we can assume on the outside 2.5 to 3 miles is the maximum we'll find higher forms of life given current knowledge.

Now let us consider we haven't even identified all non-intelligent mammals on the surface of the planet, many huge deep sea creatures, and in the 1970s it was discovered a tribe of indigenous people was living undetected in the USA.

So let us rule out below 3 miles I still see this as a viable theory. We don't need to go 10 miles down for this theory to hold water in my opinion.

reply to post by Jinglelord


Good stuff, thank you.

You will see from my last post that for every KM (Or 0.62 miles) the temp will increase by 25 to 30 degrees Centigrade. So I would agree that at the very maximum we would not see any higher life forms lower than 3 miles. (Temp at 3 miles would be approx 120 degrees C) at 2.5 miles it would be 100 degrees c taking a gradient of 25 degrees per KM. I think this is likely to be the absolute maximum you could expect to find any higher life forms.

Which brings me back to my earlier point that we have already explored much of the crust to this depth using sonar and such technologies looking for minerals. Granted, there are huge areas of the crust we have not looked at.

I still think on the ballance of probability this theory is possible, but very highly unlikely.

reply to post by Shamatt


I did see that information you presented thank you. I actually used it in my reply in a roundabout way.

Now here is what I want to know. I can find no maps showing any catalog of underground voids, lakes, caves, etc etc. If it is mapped so well why aren't these maps mentioned anywhere?

I've been reading websites dedicated to Cave exploring (quite an active hobby) and find very little mention of sonar mapping, when it does occur it seems rudimentary expensive and subject to much debate at any depth. I have seen those sonar machines used for locating archaeological finds less than 20 feet down and those are very expensive, difficult to use, and not wholly accurate. I can only imagine it gets much less accurate at depth.

Anyway, if you have or know of any information about mapping subterranean voids or caves I would really appreciate it.

I want to work on a comprehensive post exploring the possibilities of an underground world in general. I have had many dreams that take place under the earth. They have the same feel as the dreams I have that are about real life rather than the strange esoteric dreams that are simply symbolism. This is why I'm so interested in this subject.

Alright, so i shot from the hip a little. Being a former analyst, i should know better.

I went back and check my sources, and for the most part the limit that is publicly accepted would be around 3 miles for an EM powered VHST type tunnel/train system. This is what I would presume was built and kept secret for strategic purposes (or possibly usurped for more nefarious reasons). Regardless, what RAND originally suggested has not come to pass, although you can't imagine that our mlitary wouldn't want an actual deployment method of such a capability. It would make it impossible to trace who has done what as they would literally be home for dinner no matter where the tunnel took them.

Most of what I understand to be true, if this whole thing is correct, is that there is a tunnel system around that depth that criss crosses most of the planet. Some of it is natural (a result of geometry meeting geology thanks to a nice introduction by physics), some of it is seemingly not. Of course, some of the accounts are too fantastic to believe, but i put quite a bit of stock in native american legends.

Regardless, my apologies. it WAS only 3 miles....i should quit being lazy and check my facts.

Since I am not checking facts here, I will throw this in. I think it may have been Lobsang Rampa, but who knows.

Anyway, the statement was something along the lines of "Uranium being the bones of the Earth" according to monastic tibetan belief.

considering the timeframe he was writing, that is interesting.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Frankly if we're talking about 3 miles or 10 I'm not sure it makes a big difference for the overall result: There can be stuff underground we have no idea about and it is perfectly plausible.

I am interested in this underground train system. Where is there more info on that?

Originally posted by Jinglelord
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

Frankly if we're talking about 3 miles or 10 I'm not sure it makes a big difference for the overall result: There can be stuff underground we have no idea about and it is perfectly plausible.

I am interested in this underground train system. Where is there more info on that?

Here you go. Its a Google search of RAND VHST.

Use your own judgement. There are plenty of people who practice writing their fiction using this type of stuff. Zorgon has an excerpt from a RAND document on his thelivingmoon.com website.

It may entertain you for a couple of hours, at the least. LOL

reply to post by Skyfloating


It's true; my dad was a Roman Catholic Jesuit priest, and one night I overheard him on the telephone with another jesuit.

It was an analogy he was using, as I was standing on the stairs waiting to ask if I could come down for a drink of water. He said it's like the "green people" that the Jesuits discovered underground in africa, while working as missionaries. The world wasn';t ready to see the green people, they would have harmed them out of fear, so the catholic church was hiding them, helping them stay hidden.

The next day I tried verifying the story with my dad at breakfast and he denied it, saying I must have been dreaming, but I never confuse dreams and waking life, unknown to him I guess.

Just sat as an anomoly in my mind till years later my sister gave me a book, by another jesuit priest who'd left the priesthood. The story was fiction, but was all about the little green people the church had discovered and helped keep hidden.

-onderdonk

reply to post by onderdonk


so...you wanna throw us a bone and tell us the name of the book?

Pretty sure ive not seen it mentioned yet, but The Secret Commonwealth written by Rev. Robert Kirk in the 1600's is a fine text on the little folk and subterranean dwellers.
He covers the lot, tribal sturcture, hierarchies, loves and hates, changelings and abductions etc.
Love the language of the time, "The Pechs were unco wee bodies, but terrible strang."!
Read the Secret Commonwealth alongside Supernatural by Graham Hancock, a lot of things start to make sense regarding the wee folk of myth n' legend and the abduction phenomena.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan


My last post to you was meant to challenge the logic of your assumption that nothing can live far below the Earths surface. As well, I wanted to point that if we are to logically apply any assumptions, they should be applied based on what we have learned thus far by experience, not by whatever other factors are driving the notions.

YES this is the TRUE scientific method- the baconian method
All research should start with no assumption of outcome so as not to dictate the outcome.

Unfortunately we live in a society where the scientific method has been lost.... mostly because all the science is funded by corporations. Now the general people think that research should be done to prove a point.

But YOUR method is the true one

Furthermore.

I did some further reading of a lot of the various mythologies, legends, tales presented here and elsewhere. It seems there is no shortage of tales of the little people before the 20th century and even early 20th century.

I can't help but wonder if they didn't either assist with or take advantage of our (or possibly responsible for) technological advances that would allow them to generate light and energy deep below ground (a mile or less would be sufficient to never be found) to do all of their own food production and have less of a need to ever be near the surface.

This would explain why sightings seem to have dropped off proportionate to advances in technology.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Excellent post and comments/stories. I had to add that the "Green Children of Woolcot" story is probably just a good fiction. I read, in Fortean Times I think, that a researcher looked into it and found nothing, just a retelling in various Fortean books from a fictional source... not saying case closed, but in my mind after reading the article it is... and I was bummed.

Same for those Chinese "Darpa Stones." Again, bummer... just thought I'd put it out there. Don't remember where I read that, but thought it convincing at the time.

That said, I had a friend who swears that she had a garden gnome looking man a foot high trapse through her bedroom multiple times per week in the home she grew up in over a period of eighteen years. Red hat, beard, etc. Always entered by door and disappeared in closet. Reminded me of wardrobe in Dock9's. Maybe need representational doorway? If so, points to dimensional phenomena. Other odd things happened in same house.

And once when hiking in Arizona mountains, all six people in group, speaking in pairs by a stream in a canyon, felt like they were surrounded by little people... myself included. Damndest feeling, or impression. We all started thinking about little people and blurted it out, nearly at once. Then little noises and splashes in still water..no fish... that kind of thing.

Who knows.

Originally posted by fredvcall
Short people have a better chance of surviving Armageddon than do giants. Short people and insects might rule the future world. And some time travelers, too.

Great thread OP, always enjoyed your posts. Even if some of them are a bit out there for me

Thanks for making this thread Skyfloating. I knew of a few dwarf legends but I had no idea there were so many around the world. Your thread made me dig up more detail about the legend of Uxmal located in Mexico. Native American legend says a dwarf built the pyramid at Uxmal in one night. An article on Uxmal said John Lloyd Stephens picked up the legend first hand back in 1840. I was able to find scans of his book that describe the story. Since the scans are difficult to navigate through I decided to type it out quoting it in this post.

House of the Dwarf or Pyramid of the Magician - Uxmal, pre-Columbian Maya civilization in Yucatan, Mexico


This sketch of Uxmal was taken from John Lloyd Stephen's book, "Incidents of travel in Central America, Chiapas and the Yucatan" published in 1841.


Incidents of travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatan
John Lloyd Stephens, published in 1841

Ruins of Uxmal
Page 420

House of the Dwarf-An Indian legend

Page 423

“The Indians regard these ruins with superstitious reverence. They will not go near them at night, and they have the old story that immense treasure is hidden among them. Each of the buildings has its name given to it by the Indians. This is called the Casa del Anano, or House of the Dwarf, and it is consecrated by a wild legend, which, as I sat in the doorway, I received from the lips of an Indian, as follows:

There was an old woman who lived in a hut on the very spot now occupied by the structure on which this building is perched, and opposite the Casa del Gobernador [House of the Governor], who went mourning that she had no children. In her distress she one day took an egg, covered it with a cloth, and laid it away carefully in one corner of the hut. Everyday she went to look at it, until one morning she found the egg hatched, and a criatura, or creature, or baby, born. The old woman was delighted, and called it her son, provided it with a nurse, took good care of it, so that in one year it walked and talked like a man; and then it stopped growing. The old woman was more delighted than ever, and she said he would be a great lord or king. One day she told him to go to the house of the gobernador and challenge him to a trial of strength. The dwarf tried to beg off, but the old woman insisted, and he went. The guard admitted him, and he flung his challenge at the gobernador. The latter smiled, and told him to lift a stone of three arrobas, or seventy-five pounds, at which the little fellow cried and returned to his mother, who sent him back to say that if the gobernador lifted it first, he would afterward. The gobernador lifted it, and the dwarf immediately did the same. The gobernador then tried him with other feats of strength, and the dwarf regularly did whatever was done by the gobernador. At length, indignant at being matched by a dwarf, the gobernador told him that, unless he made a house in one night higher than any in the place, he would kill him. The poor dwarf again returned crying to his mother, who bade him not to be disheartened, and the next morning he awoke and found himself in this lofty building. The gobernador, seeing it from the door of his palace, was astonished, and sent for the dwarf, and told him to collect two bundles of eogoiol, a wood of a very hard species, with one of which he, the gobernador, would beat the dwarf over the head, and afterward the dwarf should beat him with the other. The dwarf again returned crying to his mother; but the latter told him not to be afraid, and put on the crown of his head a tortillita de trigo, a small thin cake of wheat flour. The trial was made in the presence of all the great men in the city. The gobernador broke the whole of his bundle over the dwarf’s head without hurting the little fellow in the least. He then tried to avoid the trial on his own head, but he had given his word in the presence of his officers, and was obliged to submit. The second blow of the dwarf broke his scull to pieces, and all the spectators hailed the victor as their new gobernador. The old woman then died; but at the Indian village of Mani, seventeen leagues distant, there is a deep well, from which opens a cave that leads under the ground an immense distance to Merida. In this cave, on the bank of a stream, under the shade of a large tree, sits an old woman with a serpent by her side, who sells water in small quantities, not for money, but only for a criatura or a baby to give the serpent to eat; and this old woman is the mother of the dwarf."

So it seems the under ground dweller isn’t the dwarf but it is his mother who seems to be the source of magic. I’ve noticed a great deal of importance to this female figure in Mesoamercan lore.

Uxmal