A race of subterranean dwarves

this is fascinating lets go to the mountains and them

reply to post by Skyfloating


As stated by someone else - there is reference in Hindu texts of God taking the form of a Dwarf in order to deceive the demon Bali. However he does not remain as a dwarf in fact he becomes So immensely large that by taking just one step he crosses over the entire universe and sticks his toe through it's boundary causing a hole which then allows Ganga (the ganges river) to enter our universe.


There are other references to dwarves in Hindu literature.

The one I find most relevant to this particular thread is Kubera - the god of WEALTH.
Similar to the leprechauns - Kubera has all the GOLD and he is most often depicted in statues or paintings as carrying his gold in a POT. He also has a lot of jewels and other wealth - he is also described ad being fat (because he eats so much opulent food)

But even MORE interestingly - in agreement with how many who encounter this race - Kubera was, in early Vedic text also the CHIEF OF EVIL SPIRITS. But in puranas and other later texts he was elevated to a demi god

But WAIT it gets even BETTER.... Kubera was also the king of Lanka (Sri Lanka now) and was overthrown by his step brother the demon Ravana (of Ramayan fame - a demon with 10 heads)
He has a Pushpaka Vimanna - SPACECRAFT - which was stolen by Ravan but after Ravan was killed his spacecraft was returned to him.

After Lanka, his home then became ALAKA at Gandhamandana which is in the Himalayas.

There are many texts which describe this as a splendorous city bedecked with jewels and so opulent it rivals the hone of Indra (the chief demigod in heaven whose entire palace is made of gemstones)

HOW could such a city be in the Himalayas??? Such a hostile cold environment? Could it possibly be UNDERGROUND?? makes sense to me.

A city needs someone to rule ... else it's a holiday villa. So who lives there?

Yakshas. They are nature spirits who guard treasures in the earth and under tree roots. The hide their wealth under the earth. Sometimes they are benevolent but other races of yakshas (the dark side) who are ghost like and they are fond of haunting forests (we daren't go hunting...), wilderness, and attacking travelers on a lonely cross roads.

In Hindusim persons usually have more than one name. Kubera has some VERY INTERESTING names:

Rakshasadhipati - king of the Rakshasas. They are demons who EAT MEN and are SHAPE SHIFTERS.
Mayuraja - king of animals resembling men (theres one for the Icke/ lizzard followers)
Coraraja - king of the THIEVES (keys/shoes been missing again? )

Kubera is also a Dikpala (Gods of Direction) and a Lokapala (4 Cardinal directions)
He prepresents North.

As a Guardian of a direction he can call on spirits of OTHER WORLDS to help him.


Some really interesting stuff.. Kubera reads like a conspiracy theory text book lol.
I'll see what else I can dig up on Hindu dwarves.

reply to post by jonnywhite


Not demons, but some kind of experiments made by fallen angels as vampires, wolfmans, giants,etc just read "The book of Enoch". The BIBLE is true.

This could be a way for people who did not understand and could not fathom how a cave could be made explained it. they had to be little because even the big caves lead to small passages also. the metal part may be to explain how they sometimes found metal like copper and such they eventually learned to use, in caves and underground in recognizable chunks..ore..

I really, really doubt that there are subterranean dwarves living undiscovered among us. But if I were wealthy I'd assemble a team and organize an expedition, who knows? Besides I got millions to burn, what else am I going to spend it on? Dwarf hunt on!

And you thought it wise to start your thread by backing up your claims with a 120 year old article?

You later talk about an English legend of two green shildren, and illlustrate your point with pictures of egyptian artifacts. Yes, good work.

Most of us stopped beleiving in such legends and stories of giants and dwarfes at about the same time we stopped beleiving in Santa and the tooth fairy. Ther is nothing in your article but old folk stories and conjecture. I am again astounded by the stuff modern humans are willing to accept as truth!

Originally posted by Shamatt
And you thought it wise to start your thread by backing up your claims with a 120 year old article?

You later talk about an English legend of two green shildren, and illlustrate your point with pictures of egyptian artifacts. Yes, good work.

Most of us stopped beleiving in such legends and stories of giants and dwarfes at about the same time we stopped beleiving in Santa and the tooth fairy. Ther is nothing in your article but old folk stories and conjecture. I am again astounded by the stuff modern humans are willing to accept as truth!

Thank you. It can only be auspicious to have our presence graced with such a highly advanced mind. Now someone can teach us the virtues of closing our own minds as tightly as yours to achieve this superior state you seem to find yourself in. Now if only you could invent a mirror that allows its user to see a true reflection of themselves.

It is obvious that people 120 years ago were complete idiots, and any newsprint must obviously be the ranting of a comparitive blathering idiot. LIkely, they were unable to achieve your advanced state. I would suppose the same could be said of the Harvard team that declared the "mummy" as a fully grown humanoid. Those idiots at Harvard, huh?

Wait...i think i see a pattern here. Maybe it isn't the material presented, but more the state of mind that you have? Or, we could just stick with your assumption that everyone else are morons.

Nice information man, thanks for sharing you mind if I blog this ? I'll give you full credit and put a link to this post.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by Shamatt
And you thought it wise to start your thread by backing up your claims with a 120 year old article?

You later talk about an English legend of two green shildren, and illlustrate your point with pictures of egyptian artifacts. Yes, good work.

Most of us stopped beleiving in such legends and stories of giants and dwarfes at about the same time we stopped beleiving in Santa and the tooth fairy. Ther is nothing in your article but old folk stories and conjecture. I am again astounded by the stuff modern humans are willing to accept as truth!

Thank you. It can only be auspicious to have our presence graced with such a highly advanced mind. Now someone can teach us the virtues of closing our own minds as tightly as yours to achieve this superior state you seem to find yourself in. Now if only you could invent a mirror that allows its user to see a true reflection of themselves.

It is obvious that people 120 years ago were complete idiots, and any newsprint must obviously be the ranting of a comparitive blathering idiot. LIkely, they were unable to achieve your advanced state. I would suppose the same could be said of the Harvard team that declared the "mummy" as a fully grown humanoid. Those idiots at Harvard, huh?

Wait...i think i see a pattern here. Maybe it isn't the material presented, but more the state of mind that you have? Or, we could just stick with your assumption that everyone else are morons.

Well written, I like your style.

Think of all the technology, the minig, pot holing, underground exploration using a myriad of new technologies which were not available 120 years ago. I am not syaing people were stupid back then, just that after 120 years we have a lot more information.

You will note I did not call anyone a mooron, (Altough I am tempted to do so now! ) I am, however, constantly shocked by the beleifes of some of the members of ATS.

I would add that to insinuate that someone is closed minded becasue of their reluctance to beleive in a subteranian race of dwarves living on/in our planet seems a little mad to me. I agree it is a good thing to remain open minded to posabilities, however a mind THAT open is likely to allow the rain in, (and apparently logic out!) and that can not be good!

reply to post by Shamatt


This thread seems less about believing in any legends, and more about trying to find that kernel of truth within the legends.

Assuming that not everyone with a story is lying (and i make that assumption based on posting history on ATS, among other things), there IS something that seemingly needs explanation. We can deny it being "gnomes", etc....but that gets us no closer to figuring out the truth of this story.

Having a mind so open your brain falls out is a problem. But I do not see that as an issue when we are making some inquiries into the happenings that people report.

I will tell you this: people 120 years ago thought that they were the pinnacle of creation as well. It is a sign of the times you are in to believe that those who came before you were ignorant and superstitious. I understand that we have gained a lot of information since then....but we have also gained a lot of disinformation and misinformation.

My only comment was on how your post added nothing to solving the mystery and basically ridiculed anyone who was trying to solve that mystery.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by Shamatt

 

This thread seems less about believing in any legends, and more about trying to find that kernel of truth within the legends.

Assuming that not everyone with a story is lying (and i make that assumption based on posting history on ATS, among other things), there IS something that seemingly needs explanation. We can deny it being "gnomes", etc....but that gets us no closer to figuring out the truth of this story.

Having a mind so open your brain falls out is a problem. But I do not see that as an issue when we are making some inquiries into the happenings that people report.

I will tell you this: people 120 years ago thought that they were the pinnacle of creation as well. It is a sign of the times you are in to believe that those who came before you were ignorant and superstitious. I understand that we have gained a lot of information since then....but we have also gained a lot of disinformation and misinformation.

My only comment was on how your post added nothing to solving the mystery and basically ridiculed anyone who was trying to solve that mystery.

Much as it is refreshing to be argued with by someone who is intelligent enough not to throw out lines like "you'r an idiot" and other such insults, your calm and erudite writings go no way to making me want to reconsider my possition. You see, I have read some of what has been posted, (some of the links were broken) I have searched for my own interest too. I can find nothing anywhere here on ATS, nor on the internet in general, that would change my opinion. And this leaves me in an ikpossible situation, if you think about it.

You see, one can't prove a negative. You can offer as many unproven theories as you like, and they can be discussed and investigated at great length. And even though there is no definitive proof, there can also be no difinitive opposition either. I can't, and could never, offer any physical proof that you are not right. It is not possible for me to offer any type of evidence, without perhaps photographing every single cave, sink hole, cutting and other possible entry into some underworld in the whole of the world. And that, of course, is not possible. And evenif I did do that, you may say that they were hiding, they saaw me coming and went underground, so still I cannot proove my case. So where does that leave us?

Logic? The ballance of probability perhaps? I have stated in other threads that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" - perhaps these words will come back to bite me in this case! LOL But I will have to continue any way

See, if after all the many thousands of years we have been on this planet we have not managed, as an inquisitive, intellligent explorational species, to uncover 1 single shred of physical evidence that these people exist, well, where does that leave us? We have searched the earths crust for oil, gas, coal and a hundred other minerals. We have explored every cave and pothole in our neer (and sometimes far) surroundings, we have scanned with ultrasound, sonar, photographs from space..... We have dug and scraped and dredged..... We have trecked and climbed and camped.... And yet not 1 artifact, not 1 photograph!

When you say I do not add to the debate, I think what you are saying is I don't add to the speculation. Why would I? I can offer no more than you can by way of proof either way. But my logic is based on the sum of what we know today, not legends and writings which go back hundreds, or thousands of years.

reply to post by Shamatt


There is some physical evidence in a race of little people, Homo floresiensis (the hobbit). I don't know that it's necessarily proving a negative, but it's more evidence than is available for many other of the unusual creatures discussed on ATS.

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by OhioPariah


Yeah, that is kind of my viewpoint...that while this may seem far fetched, it is one of the better "cryptozoology" type stories so far. There is some physical evidence, and ample anecdotal evidence.

I, personally, can only feel that from the point of exploring all options, this is on the table. Not a ringing endorsement, but I am still open to the idea. Like UFO's, I cannot discount the anecdotal information that is communicated first hand.

ETA: i have asked around with the local hispanic population, as they carry some of the same traditions of the non-European forebears. Nothing at all from people in my age group (30's-40's). I am gonna look up a couple of viejas and see if they have anything in their folk lore.

Sorry if someone already mentioned this, but the Crow indians have some interesting testimony regarding the race of little people.

I started a thread on Plenty-Coup a while back on this topic.

Montana Indian Chief and 'Little People' or 'Dwarves'

I kinda forgot to keep the thread going(happens all the time ), but here is a bit of my OP there:

After a bad reception from men on the south side of the lodge, he is invited to sit with the north side.

'Come, Plenty-coups, and sit with us.' This voice was kind. It came from the north side.

'Sit,' said the Person who had brought me there, and then he was gone. I saw him no more.

They, on the north side of the lodge, made a place for me. It was third from the head on the left, and I sat down there. The two parties of Persons were separated at the door, which faced the east, and again in the west, which was the head of the lodge, so that the Spirit-trail from east to west was open, if any wished to travel that way. On neither side were the Persons the same as I. All were different, but I knew now that they had rights in the world, as I had, that Ah-badt-dadt-deah had created them, as He had me and other men. Nobody there told me this, but I felt it in the lodge as I felt the presence of the Persons. I knew that to live on the world I must concede that those Persons across the lodge who had not wished me to sit with them had work to do, and that I could not prevent them from doing it. I felt a little afraid but was glad I was there.

'Take these, Plenty-coups.' The person at the head of the lodge on the north side handed me several beautiful first-feathers of a war-eagle.

I looked into his eyes. He was a Dwarf-Person, chief of the Little-people who live in the Medicine-rock, which you can almost see from here, and who made the stone arrow points. I now saw that all on my side were the same as he, that all were Dwarfs not tall as my knee.

Now, this is where my attention skyrocketed. What comes next in the book, is Frank Linderman's take on the Dwarfs, or Little-people. Again, this is no longer Plenty-coups speaking, it is the author/interviewer of the book.

The Dwarfs or Little-people are legendary beings, supposed to possess great physical strength. In the story of "Lost Boy," a Crow saw one of the Dwarfs shoulder a full-grown bull elk and walk with it on his shoulder. They dwell in Medicine-rock, near Pryor, Montana. The Little-people made the stone arrow heads, the Crows believe.

All the Indian tribes of the Northwestern plains, with whom I am acquainted, possess legends that deal with the makers of the stone arrow points which are scattered so plentifully over North America. These legends, together with the knowledge that identical stone arrow points are found in Europe, led me, long ago, to the belief that our plains Indians neither made nor used them--that some other people made them. Careful inquiry among very old Indians, beginning in 1886, has not discovered a single tribesman who had ever heard of his own people making stone arrow points. These old men have told me that before the white man came, their arrow points were of bone.

Plenty-coups, after some dialogue with the Dwarfs in the lodge, is told this upon departing by the Dwarf-chief:

'In you, as in all men, are natural powers. You have a will. Learn to use it. Make it work for you. Sharpen your senses as you sharpen your knife. Remember the wolf smells better than you do because he has learned to depend on his nose. It tells him every secret the winds carry because he uses it all the time, makes it work for him. We can give you nothing. You already possess everything necessary to become great. Use your powers. Make them work for you, and you will become a Chief'

Great thread as usual, Sky.

Excellent thread OP. I know it isnt news to many but it made me think of a book by Jaques Vallee called 'Dimensions, A Casebook of Alien Contact' where he links together known 'myth' legend and lore world wide from Elves, Dwarfs, Fairies, ETs, Gods Angels, Demons etc since early on in humanity. Appearing as all of these beings do around the world, in and out of our history there has to be more to it than just over active imaginations of early man.

reply to post by Shamatt


One more thing on the supposed lack of physical evidence outside of the hobbit find to be looked at is if we did find an artifact would we know?

Take for example the Venus of Willendorf statues. These are found scattered all around and nobody has any conclusive evidence of who made them or why they were made. Through providence there are many very good theories but we're just not positive. This is only one example there are literally thousands of archaeological finds that we just don't know where they came from or who made them. And think modern day, what if a spelunker finds a small set of clothing or boots in a cave? They will be assumed to be from a doll or child and categorized under "Well thats odd" and forgotten about.

The point I'm trying to make is we wouldn't know if we had physical evidence because the way any crafted items are identified is by providence, date, and build type. If you have the first 2 near a human settlement the build type would just be attributed to the local people as an odd example and likely ignored. Archaeologists study patterns, not unique one offs. So we wouldn't even know we had an artifact short of a corpse. And if it is an intelligent community that lives in deep caves there is next to no chance we would find a corpse or recent (last ten thousand years or so) remains.

reply to post by KeRsHaN


Cheers! I now know what the Happy Mondays/John Kongos were singing about, excellent.

Tokoloshe Man

Originally posted by Jinglelord
reply to post by Shamatt

 

One more thing on the supposed lack of physical evidence outside of the hobbit find to be looked at is if we did find an artifact would we know?

Take for example the Venus of Willendorf statues. These are found scattered all around and nobody has any conclusive evidence of who made them or why they were made. Through providence there are many very good theories but we're just not positive. This is only one example there are literally thousands of archaeological finds that we just don't know where they came from or who made them. And think modern day, what if a spelunker finds a small set of clothing or boots in a cave? They will be assumed to be from a doll or child and categorized under "Well thats odd" and forgotten about.

The point I'm trying to make is we wouldn't know if we had physical evidence because the way any crafted items are identified is by providence, date, and build type. If you have the first 2 near a human settlement the build type would just be attributed to the local people as an odd example and likely ignored. Archaeologists study patterns, not unique one offs. So we wouldn't even know we had an artifact short of a corpse. And if it is an intelligent community that lives in deep caves there is next to no chance we would find a corpse or recent (last ten thousand years or so) remains.

I find it hard to dissgree with your logic here, it is sound. Howerver, my loggic tells me that it is not possible to live that deep underground and never evver surface. Nothing can grow at such depths of any real value as there is no sun light, so what do these people eat? If they come to the surface to get food they would leave evidence.

reply to post by Shamatt


The subject of how they eat if they do exist would be the most complicated. Either they can live wholly off of fungal cultures that don't require sunlight and have their own little ecosystem going, or there is another food source ecosystem based on either fungus or bacteria that do not require sun to survive. There are a lot of examples of ecosystems without sunlight as a proof of concept, but none that we have found are very large in terms of being able to produce enough energy to sustain a larger mammal. gma

Other options could include that they use bat caves as farms and guano is their primary source of energy for food growth.

Also if some theories are correct and they are advanced they could somehow be able to convert magma heat into radiation that mimics the sun (IE a grow light).

The reality there is no way to know because if they do exist they exist in places we have yet to document or explore and it is likely examples of their ecosystem would not be easy to locate or have any previous knowledge of. As far as I'm concerned it is possible for a ecosystem to exist deep underground especially if cultured by an intelligent being.

I think my primary argument isn't that little underground people definitely exist, my point is that they could exist and isn't impossible that they do.

Originally posted by Shamatt

Howerver, my loggic tells me that it is not possible to live that deep underground and never evver surface. Nothing can grow at such depths of any real value as there is no sun light, so what do these people eat?.

Is this a fact, or an assumption? What is the deepest we have publicly gone? 2 miles? the Earth is what, 7k miles thick (diameter)? Could be wrong....i am nearing 40 and elementary geology is in the very distant past.

Of course, there could be a presumption that nothing could survive. But this presumption is based in having zero experience. No matter where you go on Earth or in Earth, an eco-system has been found. Based on actual experience, We would expect to continue finding life the deeper we go.

Molds and fungus can provide for sustenance at any depth. And geothermal energy is a well known driver of life in lieu of the Sun. Again, based on our actual experience there is little to say that it is impossible. Improbable, perhaps....but not impossible.

ETA: It seems that Jinglelord already replied just about the exact same thing that I did. Too funny.