Please just hear me out about Obama's birth certificate!!

reply to post by aptness


I didn't say it was incriminating. Just said that it was odd. That things were worded exactly that way during the hight of the BC craze and court dates being set. As for the 55 that were present but did not vote, why would you not vote on what is just announcement to Hawaii "congratulations on your 50th Anniversary of being a state" all in all it had the same weight as the House congratulating the winner of the Super Bowl or World Series. Why would you chose to not vote on that?

That is what I meant by odd.

reply to post by Habit4ming


You Do Get It!!

thank god someone besdies myself gets it... he father was not even naturalized.. that is the key part!!!

btw, did you catch my post on page one?
i won't even reply to those mouth breathers who can't even grasp the concept of Natural Born; they are trying to play the strawman against me.. I've learned the hard way, its better to not even entertain those ploys..

how can you, I, and everyone else that gets the Nat Born part of this equation into the minds of others.. it seemed so simple, yet many are like the rabbit ffrom alice in wonderland "blah, blah, blah"

Originally posted by Ahabstar
As for the 55 that were present but did not vote, why would you not vote on what is just announcement to Hawaii "congratulations on your 50th Anniversary of being a state" all in all it had the same weight as the House congratulating the winner of the Super Bowl or World Series. Why would you chose to not vote on that?

My point is that I don’t know and you don’t know. To use this piece of information as indicative of anything, other than congressmen sometimes don’t vote on non-binding resolutions, is not a good supporting argument.

I asked you if 55 people not voting on such a resolution was uncommon and you haven’t responded, but since you bring up the resolutions congratulating the winner of, for instance, the Super Bowl, let me show the voting record of the House resolution congratulating the New Orleans Saints for their win.

Mar 4, 2010: This resolution passed in the House of Representatives by roll call vote. The vote was held under a suspension of the rules to cut debate short and pass the resolution, needing a two-thirds majority. This usually occurs for non-controversial legislation. The totals were 375 Ayes, 1 Nays, 56 Present/Not Voting.

There were 56 representatives that didn’t vote, and even one nay. So, using your own logic, the Resolution congratulating Hawaii for its 50th statehood anniversary, that included a statement affirming the President was born in Hawaii, had more support and was less controversial than the resolution congratulating the New Orleans Saints for their Super Bowl win.

Originally posted by aptness

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
Obama doesn't have a "long form birth-certificate" he has a Certificate of Live Birth issued by the state of Hawaii which means he wasn't born in America. Don't know where he was born, just know he wasn't born here.

Really, you know? Based on what? Not having a “long form birth certificate” and having a certificate of live birth issued by Hawaii?

The evidence that Obama himself gave. He is putting the Certificate of Live Birth up as his proof of Citizenship.

So everyone in Hawaii that doesn’t have a “long form birth certificate” anymore, and requests a birth certificate from the state — since the state only issues certificates of live birth — means they were born somewhere else? Is this really what you believe? Or this ‘logic’ of yours only applies to Obama?

This has to do with Obama not other citizens in Hawaii. Next question.

Look at what the Congress ruled for McCain when he went through the process of figuring out if he was a Natural Born Citizen because he was born in Panama on a Military Base.

There was no ‘process,’ merely a declaration that the Senate believed McCain was a natural-born citizen. The Senate passed a non-binding resolution saying they believe McCain is a natural-born citizen. It was introduced by a Democrat (Claire McCaskill) and co-sponsored by 5 other Democrats, including Obama and Clinton.

Well that "deceleration" gave McCain the approval to run for president. So it became a Binding resolution.

What’s funny is that, according to the birthers own theory of natural-born citizen to disqualify Obama regardless of were he was born, as described in Vattel’s treatise, John McCain is not a natural-born citizen.

Before the Constitution the closest reference we have to Natural Born Citizen is from the legal treatise “the Law of Nations,” written by Emerich de Vattel in 1758. In book one chapter 19, § 212. Of the citizens and natives.

“The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.”

Yet here are the birthers pointing to “the process McCain went through” — aka a non-binding resolution — as proof that Congress, in regards to McCain, did its job and McCain is, therefore, a natural-born citizen.

I’m sure if the roles were reversed and the Senate passed a non-binding resolution claiming they believed Obama to be a natural-born citizen the birthers would totally accept it...

McCain was born on a Military Base that could be considered "US Soil". There was an incident not to long ago about a baby that was born on a Flight in the air to American Parents, but because they were over Canadian Air Space at the time of birth the Child is a Canadian Citizen by rule of Law. Which would mean if Obama was born on Forgien soil and not on a US Military Base then he would be a citizen of that country he was born in.

It's that simple folks.

It’s so simple, but the birthers have yet to present any proof Obama wasn’t born in the United States.

The burden of Proof is on Obama to prove he is a Citizen now. I offer the "Certificate of Live Birth" and the listing of his race as "African" as proof that he was born in Africa. In no Government issued document is the race of "African" listed as a choice.

Birthers only present deductions that imply everyone born in Hawaii that doesn’t have a “long form birth certificate” must’ve been born somewhere else, as put forward by this ATS member; and that the framers appreciated Vattel’s work and therefore must’ve relied on Vattel’s definition of natural-born.

Even if that were so, the law of the land has been, for over 100 years, that everyone born in the United States is a natural-born citizen, regardless of parentage. When the “other guys” win, the birthers suddenly care about centuries old precedents of US jurisprudence.

Everyone in Hawaii does not pertain to Obama.

Obama offered his "Certificate of Live Birth" as proof of his citizenship and NOWHERE on ANY government form where race is a question is "African" listed as a choice. Never has been and never will be.

Which means one of two things. Obama was born out of the country and his mother registered his birth in Hawaii. Which it is documented that his mother was in Africa at the time that Obama was due. It is also documented that the state of Hawaii also issued Certificates of Live births to children born out of the country.

Or the second thing is that the "Certificate of Live Birth" Is a Forgery.

You chose. Debunk the fact that Hawaii issued "Certificates of Live Birth"(COLB) to people born out of the country at the time Obama was born, and also debunk the fact that his race is listed as "African" on that COLB that he is presenting as proof of his citizenship. Debunk the fact that Obama's mother was due to deliver Obama's birth and that Obama's mother was not in Africa at the time that Obama was due. You can't because that is all documented fact.

The burden of Proof is Upon Obama to prove to us that he was born here and it wouldn't take anything more than to show a Hawaiian Hospital record of the doctor that Delivered Obama the date the time and height and weight at the time of delivery. Just like every single other person that was born in an America Hospital can show. Even people born on Military Bases out of the country.

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
The evidence that Obama himself gave. He is putting the Certificate of Live Birth up as his proof of Citizenship.

So? Certificates issued by the state are prima facie evidence of the facts therein described.

This has to do with Obama not other citizens in Hawaii. Next question.

Your objection about Hawaii’s certificates of live birth applies only to Obama, as suspected and telling. Got it.

Well that "deceleration" gave McCain the approval to run for president. So it became a Binding resolution.

Deceleration? What are you talking about?

Anyway, a non-binding resolution is always a non-binding resolution. Perhaps you need to read up about non-binding resolutions and their purpose before opining on it.

McCain was born on a Military Base that could be considered "US Soil".

Wrong. Military bases and diplomatic facilities abroad are not considered US soil for 14th Amendment purposes. Further demonstration that the birthers don’t know what the hell they’re talking about.

The burden of Proof is on Obama to prove he is a Citizen now.

Yeah, nice try. You got that backwards.

The competent authorities have vouched, not only for Obama’s certificate, but that his vital records say he was born in Hawaii. The Congress certified Obama’s election without a single objection. The courts have dismissed every single lawsuit contesting Obama’s citizenship.

The burden is on the birthers to prove he wasn’t born in the United States. Get back to us when you do, or, at least, when you have a basic grasp of US citizenship law and jurisprudence.

I'm not denying that some people are using issue as a covert cover for their racism, but this to me is important because for decades upon decades we have been pillaged and plundered by corporations and banks. This is about our laws. This is a defining moment on whether we are a nation of laws or a dictatorship. If we are a nation of Laws then even the president must abide and live under those laws. If we are a dictatorship then we are living under the rule of corporations.

All this lawyer speak and definitions on what a "natural born" citizen is is a bunch of hog wash. Does common sense even matter anymore? If you were to be asked what a "natural born citizen" is wouldn't you say someone that is born in the country that they reside in? I know I would say that and I do believe if you weren't a law student a lawyer or have an interest in the law you would say the same thing.

I find it amazing that these people are so against the corporations and "right wing" are, as I heard it referred too on another thread, "carrying the water for Obama". Look at Obama's campaign contributors list, what is difference between that list and McCain's? Maybe a few are missing and the numbers are different, but it's proof that corporations own our government.

It's amazing how people can be duped into fighting for a the causes that they claim to be against.

Originally posted by aptness

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
The evidence that Obama himself gave. He is putting the Certificate of Live Birth up as his proof of Citizenship.

So? Certificates issued by the state are prima facie evidence of the facts therein described.

Obama is using his COLB as proof of his citizenship, Take it up with Obama. I'm just pointing out the facts.

This has to do with Obama not other citizens in Hawaii. Next question.

Your objection about Hawaii’s certificates of live birth applies only to Obama, as suspected and telling. Got it.

This issue is about Obama not other citizens of Hawaii. This is your attempt at deflection.

Well that "deceleration" gave McCain the approval to run for president. So it became a Binding resolution.

Deceleration? What are you talking about?

Obviously you didn't read anything that anyone has written.

Anyway, a non-binding resolution is always a non-binding resolution. Perhaps you need to read up about non-binding resolutions and their purpose before opining on it.

(Edit to add: I like how you pretend to not know what I was talking about, but immediately bring it up in the next question.)

So if it is a "non-binding" Resolution why did McCain even waste his time going through the process if it doesn't solve anything? Nice waste of our tax payers money huh?

McCain was born on a Military Base that could be considered "US Soil".

Wrong. Military bases and diplomatic facilities abroad are not considered US soil for 14th Amendment purposes. Further demonstration that the birthers don’t know what the hell they’re talking about.

Since you are bringing up the US Constitution to support your argument then I will bring it up to support mine.

Qualifications to be president are listed in the US Constitution as follows:

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States

The whole thing that blows every argument out the water is the line of "at the time of the adoption of this constitution" The wording of the qualifications in the constitution implies that you have be born on US Soil to be considered eligible for president of the US.(edit to add: Or be alive at the time of the adopotion of the US Constitution.)

The burden of Proof is on Obama to prove he is a Citizen now.

Yeah, nice try. You got that backwards.

If this case was to be accepted to a court of Law the Burden of Proof would upon Obama because we "birthers" have brought forth our evidence showing why he is NOT a Natural Born Citizen as defined in the US Constitution.

Also ever been sued before? I've known people that have and the burned of proof that they obeyed the law is upon the defendant, which is what Obama would be.

The competent authorities have vouched, not only for Obama’s certificate, but that his vital records say he was born in Hawaii. The Congress certified Obama’s election without a single objection. The courts have dismissed every single lawsuit contesting Obama’s citizenship.

The burden is on the birthers to prove he wasn’t born in the United States. Get back to us when you do, or, at least, when you have a basic grasp of US citizenship law and jurisprudence.

See previous answers.

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
Obama is using his COLB as proof of his citizenship, Take it up with Obama. I'm just pointing out the facts.

There must be some communication problem here. Do you believe the state of Hawaii issued and certified a document with false information? I’d like to know the level of delusion I’m dealing with here.

This issue is about Obama not other citizens of Hawaii. This is your attempt at deflection.

No deflection, merely pointing out the flaw in your argument.

You claimed that “Obama doesn't have a ‘long form birth-certificate’,” that “he has a Certificate of Live Birth issued by the state of Hawaii,” and these things, according to, “mean he wasn't born in America.”

I’m not sure if you’re aware, but if someone asks the state of Hawaii for a copy of their birth certificate, the state gives them the certification of live birth, like the one Obama has presented. So my question was this: do you honestly believe that everyone that can’t produce a “long form” birth certificate, and only has a certification of live birth, “wasn’t born in America” as you claimed?

This is preposterous.

Well that "deceleration" gave McCain the approval to run for president. So it became a Binding resolution.

Deceleration? What are you talking about?

(Edit to add: I like how you pretend to not know what I was talking about, but immediately bring it up in the next question.)

I’m honestly confused here. Did you write ‘deceleration’ and meant declaration?

So if it is a "non-binding" Resolution why did McCain even waste his time going through the process if it doesn't solve anything? Nice waste of our tax payers money huh?

There was no process. Any Senator can introduce a non-binding resolution. Non-binding resolutions are just declarations, usually informing, condemning or praising something, with the purpose of informing of the Senate’s position on a particular issue, but they have no legal value.

This resolution in particular cannot change the meaning of natural-born citizen, nor can it ‘make’ McCain a natural-born citizen. Its purpose is, in case a Court had to rule on the question of McCain’s status, it would look at this resolution and take in consideration Congress’ position on the matter, but the Court would not be bound by it in its ruling.

That’s why it’s called a non-binding resolution. It has no legislative or legal weight. It’s merely informative of Congress’ position.

Since you are bringing up the US Constitution to support your argument then I will bring it up to support mine. ...

The whole thing that blows every argument out the water is the line of "at the time of the adoption of this constitution" The wording of the qualifications in the constitution implies that you have be born on US Soil to be considered eligible for president of the US.(edit to add: Or be alive at the time of the adopotion of the US Constitution.)

I don’t even understand exactly what argument you claim to be blowing out the water. But even more curious is that, reading what you just wrote, your own language disqualifies McCain, so I’m unsure why you are fighting me on that point.

If this case was to be accepted to a court of Law the Burden of Proof would upon Obama because we "birthers" have brought forth our evidence showing why he is NOT a Natural Born Citizen as defined in the US Constitution.

There were numerous lawsuits concerning this and they were all dismissed. Do you have any credible evidence that wasn’t already dismissed by the Courts? Anything new and tangible? Or just more hearsay and hoaxed Kenyan birth certificates?

Originally posted by aptness

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
Obama is using his COLB as proof of his citizenship, Take it up with Obama. I'm just pointing out the facts.

There must be some communication problem here. Do you believe the state of Hawaii issued and certified a document with false information? I’d like to know the level of delusion I’m dealing with here.

This issue is about Obama not other citizens of Hawaii. This is your attempt at deflection.

No deflection, merely pointing out the flaw in your argument.

You claimed that “Obama doesn't have a ‘long form birth-certificate’,” that “he has a Certificate of Live Birth issued by the state of Hawaii,” and these things, according to, “mean he wasn't born in America.”

I’m not sure if you’re aware, but if someone asks the state of Hawaii for a copy of their birth certificate, the state gives them the certification of live birth, like the one Obama has presented. So my question was this: do you honestly believe that everyone that can’t produce a “long form” birth certificate, and only has a certification of live birth, “wasn’t born in America” as you claimed?

This is preposterous.

Well that "deceleration" gave McCain the approval to run for president. So it became a Binding resolution.

Deceleration? What are you talking about?

(Edit to add: I like how you pretend to not know what I was talking about, but immediately bring it up in the next question.)

I’m honestly confused here. Did you write ‘deceleration’ and meant declaration?

So if it is a "non-binding" Resolution why did McCain even waste his time going through the process if it doesn't solve anything? Nice waste of our tax payers money huh?

There was no process. Any Senator can introduce a non-binding resolution. Non-binding resolutions are just declarations, usually informing, condemning or praising something, with the purpose of informing of the Senate’s position on a particular issue, but they have no legal value.

This resolution in particular cannot change the meaning of natural-born citizen, nor can it ‘make’ McCain a natural-born citizen. Its purpose is, in case a Court had to rule on the question of McCain’s status, it would look at this resolution and take in consideration Congress’ position on the matter, but the Court would not be bound by it in its ruling.

That’s why it’s called a non-binding resolution. It has no legislative or legal weight. It’s merely informative of Congress’ position.

Since you are bringing up the US Constitution to support your argument then I will bring it up to support mine. ...

The whole thing that blows every argument out the water is the line of "at the time of the adoption of this constitution" The wording of the qualifications in the constitution implies that you have be born on US Soil to be considered eligible for president of the US.(edit to add: Or be alive at the time of the adopotion of the US Constitution.)

I don’t even understand exactly what argument you claim to be blowing out the water. But even more curious is that, reading what you just wrote, your own language disqualifies McCain, so I’m unsure why you are fighting me on that point.

If this case was to be accepted to a court of Law the Burden of Proof would upon Obama because we "birthers" have brought forth our evidence showing why he is NOT a Natural Born Citizen as defined in the US Constitution.

There were numerous lawsuits concerning this and they were all dismissed. Do you have any credible evidence that wasn’t already dismissed by the Courts? Anything new and tangible? Or just more hearsay and hoaxed Kenyan birth certificates?

edit on 5-4-2011 by aptness because: (no reason given)

Again I ask you:

Where does it list "African" on any government issued document when it asks for a persons race?

Is it not true that Obama's mother was in Africa right around the time that Obama was born?

Is it not true that Hawaii use to issue Certificates of Live Births to American Parent(s) who's children were not born on US Soil?

The questions I just asked are Facts. The burden of proof is upon Obama that he was born in a Hawaiian Hospital. It should be really simple for him or the Hospital to produce a birth record consistent with other babies that were born on that day in the same hospital. It is written law that hospitals keeps those records when a baby is born.

It's that simple. Obama has had his Birth Records sealed, again, that is a fact. Unless your name is Barack Obama you cannot prove to me or anyone in this country that Obama is a Natural Born citizen of this country. The only person that can prove this is Obama himself.

Edit to add:

To claim that the Natural Born Citizen clause in the US Constitution pertains to people not born on US Soil would be akin to saying that the US Constitution made everyone that was alive in entire known world a US Citizen.

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
Again I ask you:

If you give more weight to that, at best, circumstantial evidence and ‘feelings’ you have about Obama than a certified document issued by a state, or the statement from the competent authorities about his vital records confirming he was born in Hawaii, why would you believe a “long form” birth certificate issued by the same state whose other documents and authorities you don’t accept?

Obama has had his Birth Records sealed, again, that is a fact.

No, not a fact, it’s false. Everyone’s vital records are sealed by law. You don’t order them to be sealed, they are sealed by default.

This, and the question of Obama’s vital records, was explained on the press releases of the Director of the Department of Health of Hawaii (here, here).

The only person that can prove this is Obama himself.

Perhaps, but he is currently not under any legal obligation to prove this to you or anyone else.

To claim that the Natural Born Citizen clause in the US Constitution pertains to people not born on US Soil would be akin to saying that the US Constitution made everyone that was alive in entire known world a US Citizen.

I don’t understand how it would apply to everyone in the world, but it’s your opinion then that children of US citizens born abroad, including children of service men and women, are not natural-born citizens and couldn’t be President. That includes John McCain. Right?

Personally, I don't care if Obama was born in Kenya or wherever (I believe he was born in the US). Why does it even matter at this point? Doesn't the US have a ton of problems that we need to address? I just shake my head when a politician or a politician wannabe like Trump tries to make a big deal about this non-issue. I know some will disagree but this whole thing is just ridiculous but that is par for course with politics these days in America. Latch onto a non-issue while ignoring real issues.

reply to post by Chrisfishenstein


No, we will not hear you out because your claim here is false and baseless.