A Question For The Liberals Here

Originally posted by whatukno
If I had the financial means I would shoulder all the tax burden for every conservative in the country just to expose what deadbeat whiners conservatives are.

So how much extra, above your taxes, do you contribute to the government to support those entitlement programs?

Conservatives want a 0% tax rate, but somehow they feel justified in traveling on roads paid for by taxes, they somehow feel justified to go to war.

Let's call that a given, just for the sake of argument. What about the liberals who actually support big government? Knowing that conservatives oppose those programs, why don't you step up and give more?

But god forbid their taxes are used to help someone instead of killing them, then it's just waste.

As I stated before, I personally oppose our adventurism. I would return to isolationism with high tariffs on imported products and punitive tariffs on companies previously American that relocated offshore.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


Well, let's see, all my state taxes went to the state (I got no refund this year, but owed nothing)

My ex wife received a tax refund from me for a little over 400 bucks the other half went to the government.

I earned about 15,000 last year, minus taxes, and child support, I received just a little over 7k.

So, I suppose I didn't pay enough to the government for you. Sorry, I'll try to pay more next year.

What's funny to me is, Conservatives whine and moan about "entitlements" like Social Security and Medicare. But from where I sit, it appears to me that I pay into these programs. But somehow, I shouldn't expect anything for what I pay for.

Do conservatives do this often? Do you go into a store, pay for something, and then leave without the thing you paid for?

How exactly is it an entitlement when I pay for it?

If you pay for something, isn't there a reasonable expectation that you receive what you paid for? To me that doesn't seem like an entitlement, but a return on an investment.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


Yes, actually I do consider that created responsibility. I have no choice but to send my children to public schools. Does that make me a worse parent? I don't agree with much of what goes on in the public school system, but I don't have the luxury of choice for my children. Does that make you better than me? Or make your children smarter than mine? Like I said, it is your right as an American to spend your money as you see fit, as it is my right. I am happy for you and your children that you have made what seems to be the right choice for your family. Just don't try to tell me that you are forced into this, you're not.

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

What's funny to me is, Conservatives whine and moan about "entitlements" like Social Security and Medicare. But from where I sit, it appears to me that I pay into these programs. But somehow, I shouldn't expect anything for what I pay for.

Do conservatives do this often? Do you go into a store, pay for something, and then leave without the thing you paid for?

How exactly is it an entitlement when I pay for it?

If you pay for something, isn't there a reasonable expectation that you receive what you paid for? To me that doesn't seem like an entitlement, but a return on an investment.

edit on 4/4/2011 by whatukno because: (no reason given)

My thoughts exactly...

Originally posted by avatar22
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

Yes, actually I do consider that created responsibility. I have no choice but to send my children to public schools. Does that make me a worse parent? I don't agree with much of what goes on in the public school system, but I don't have the luxury of choice for my children. Does that make you better than me? Or make your children smarter than mine? Like I said, it is your right as an American to spend your money as you see fit, as it is my right. I am happy for you and your children that you have made what seems to be the right choice for your family. Just don't try to tell me that you are forced into this, you're not.

My conscience forces me to do it. Back in the day, the public school system was not great but it was "OK". Now, I cannot subject my children to the public school system. This system indoctrinates it's students to be pro-liberal, anti-Christian, and to be honest it makes kids stupid. My 2 nine year old children seem to be smarter than the vast majority of adults I encounter on a daily basis.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776
Interesting thread. S+F

What I find interesting is the cry to not only raise taxes but to punish the "evil" corporations who don't pay enough.

Irony in that the same government they run to for help is the same government that writes the tax codes that allows corporations to "get away" with what they pay in taxes.

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

Well, let's see, all my state taxes went to the state (I got no refund this year, but owed nothing)

My ex wife received a tax refund from me for a little over 400 bucks the other half went to the government.

I earned about 15,000 last year, minus taxes, and child support, I received just a little over 7k.

So, I suppose I didn't pay enough to the government for you. Sorry, I'll try to pay more next year.

What's funny to me is, Conservatives whine and moan about "entitlements" like Social Security and Medicare. But from where I sit, it appears to me that I pay into these programs. But somehow, I shouldn't expect anything for what I pay for.

Do conservatives do this often? Do you go into a store, pay for something, and then leave without the thing you paid for?

How exactly is it an entitlement when I pay for it?

If you pay for something, isn't there a reasonable expectation that you receive what you paid for? To me that doesn't seem like an entitlement, but a return on an investment.

edit on 4/4/2011 by whatukno because: (no reason given)

Why is it an entitlement instead of a return on investment? Ok, answer this question and perhaps you will begin to see. How much did the first recipients of SS pay into the system before getting their checks? Do you understand now that SS and all the other entitlement programs are a huge ponzi scheme? Do you understand that like all ponzi schemes they are doomed to fail just as soon as those receiving checks outnumber those paying into the system?

reply to post by beezzer

Excellent point, how have I never considered that before? Thank you. Star for you.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


How is this any different from any other insurance?

Insurance companies do exactly the same thing.

But the point is the same, how is it an entitlement when I pay for it? Each and every check goes into it, so, why is it wrong to expect a return on my investment? I would much rather pay into the federal government than invest in an IRA account that will just get stolen by people like Bernie Madoff with absolutely zero legal recourse to recoup my losses.

So again instead of your strawman argument that it's a ponzi scheme, (which it's not thanks to Reagan). Which doesn't address the fact that I pay into this. It's not an entitlement when I actually pay for it.

What would really wipe out debt abd deficits would be to stop Obama from spending anymore and borrowing anymore, cut out 95% of the entitlement programs, make Reprsentitves and Senators a parttime job like Jefferson advocated, cut out redundancy people in government (you know like the people checking the people checking the people checking the people that actually does the work), stop Obamacare which is unconsitutional anyway.

reply to post by whatukno

We should end this socialism and completely privatize the military.

Ouch. Be careful what you ask for whatu. That's coming down the road.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776

Originally posted by avatar22
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

Yes, actually I do consider that created responsibility. I have no choice but to send my children to public schools. Does that make me a worse parent? I don't agree with much of what goes on in the public school system, but I don't have the luxury of choice for my children. Does that make you better than me? Or make your children smarter than mine? Like I said, it is your right as an American to spend your money as you see fit, as it is my right. I am happy for you and your children that you have made what seems to be the right choice for your family. Just don't try to tell me that you are forced into this, you're not.

My conscience forces me to do it. Back in the day, the public school system was not great but it was "OK". Now, I cannot subject my children to the public school system. This system indoctrinates it's students to be pro-liberal, anti-Christian, and to be honest it makes kids stupid. My 2 nine year old children seem to be smarter than the vast majority of adults I encounter on a daily basis.

The school system is not what is making the children stupid... it' the parents. Most have become lazy in raising their children, and expect the schools to do all the teaching. It used to be that school was merely an extension of what children were taught.
I eat dinner with my children every night. I tuck them into bed, and wake them up for school every morning. When they have questions, I am always there to answer them to the best of my ability, and do my best to instill my values in them on a daily basis. Can you honestly say that you do all of this? Or is it more important for you to send them to a private school? This is more important to me than who is teaching them what at school, or if they will ever get into an Ivy League College. And for reference my 5th grader is on a high school reading level, and received 100's in three classes on her last report card, and my 6th grader is creating computer games and programs on his own (as well as being an amazing anime artist). I'm sorry but your children are no smarter than mine, nor visa versa. Only, your children are GIVEN more opportunities, because of your financial standing,and my children will have to work for those same opportunities, because of mine.

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

How is this any different from any other insurance?

Insurance companies do exactly the same thing.

Not quite. Insurance companies have to keep assets on hand to pay claims. The US government does not. We have to BORROW THE MONEY.

But the point is the same, how is it an entitlement when I pay for it? Each and every check goes into it, so, why is it wrong to expect a return on my investment? I would much rather pay into the federal government than invest in an IRA account that will just get stolen by people like Bernie Madoff with absolutely zero legal recourse to recoup my losses.

So you are ok with the government stealing the money?

So again instead of your strawman argument that it's a ponzi scheme, (which it's not thanks to Reagan). Which doesn't address the fact that I pay into this. It's not an entitlement when I actually pay for it.

It is a ponzi scheme my friend.

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to separate investors from their own money or money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from any actual profit earned.

Named after Charles Ponzi, a man with a remarkable criminal career in the early 20th century, the term has been used to describe pyramid arrangements whereby an enterprise makes payments to investors from the proceeds of a later investment rather than from profits of the underlying business ...

A Ponzi scheme is a type of securities fraud where the promoter makes some sort of false or misleading statement about an investment (often including a guaranteed high rate of return) and pays off older investors with newer investor's monies. ...

You probably will ask about the "high rate of return" part. Consider how much longer people collect now than they did when this started in the 1930's. IIRC, people in general receive much more than they ever pay in.
Now, to be fair, if there were actual separate accounts for each individual I would likely agree with you about it not being an entitlement program. But that is not the case and has not been for a long time now.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

Interesting thread. S+F

What I find interesting is the cry to not only raise taxes but to punish the "evil" corporations who don't pay enough.

Irony in that the same government they run to for help is the same government that writes the tax codes that allows corporations to "get away" with what they pay in taxes.

I personally (not saying everyone) do not run for help. I have gotten along fine on my own, without Uncle Sam coming to my rescue. That being said, I don't think there's anything wrong with making sure those "evil" corporations pay something. How is it that a small-business owner can owe thousands of dollars a year, yet a large corporation can get out of paying entirely??? How can that be considered right in any sense of the word??

reply to post by avatar22


You are right. It is not fair. We need to elect people who will level the playing field. Obama has Jeff Imhelt in the freaking White House fer crying out loud! There is no common sense anymore.

As for running for help by the government, I can only hope that no one does. Personal respoinsibility needs to be retaught in this country.

reply to post by avatar22

I applaud you for your involvement with your children. Unfortunately being divorced and sharing custody means I do not get as much time as I would like to do those things, but we engage in many learning activities whenever we can.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


I am divorced as well, though re-married. My husband has 3 children of his own, so together there are 5. I know exactly the kind of struggles that come from divorced families (I am also a child of divorce). I do commend you in do the best you can for them. Please, don't think that I disagree with your choices. Only stating my side of things.

reply to post by avatar22

You are much braver than I. I seriously doubt that I will ever want to remarry; though I do enjoy the company of women immensely.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
reply to post by Garfee

 

In this context, a "liberal" is one who believes that we "need" NPR, PBS, and the plethora of entitlement programs that currently pervade our society.

so does that mean that a conservative is one who believes that we "need" social security, medicare and a massive defense budget as their own entitlement plans?

Do we NEED NPR or PBS? no, but we also don't need to outspend every other country on the planet to protect our overseas empire of oil and damnation either. So i guess in the end its not about needs so much as it is about deciding who exactly benefits from these "entitlements" and what we as a nation think is important. The bottom line however is that the vast majority of the federal budget goes towards 2 items. Defense spending, Medicare and Social Security. The conservatives won't touch any of those 3 because it affects a core constituent group, the elderly,and their campaign backers, Military Industrial Complex. Liberals don't want to screw with NPR, PBS et al for the same reason just different demographic. the big difference however is that when the conservatives try to gouge billions from the federal budget, they are attacking things that make up the smallest portions of appropriation yet still have the largest impact domestically in direct opposition to our military spendng which is both vast and primarily internationally focused. We see few if any benefits of our last decade at war in the middle east back here in the states where my 3 year old enjoys PBS on a daily basis.

reply to post by peter vlar

Your 3 year old enjoys it. So the question is do you pay extra to support it? Of course people will not volunteer to support things they oppose, that is not the question or issue of this thread. The question is that since you support those entitlements that are part of the problem bankrupting our nation, and since you (presumably) do not want those programs cut how much extra do you send uncle sam each year to support those programs?