The Greatest hoax ever perpetrated on mankind

All I know it I have my tin foil hat at the ready...

reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL


The Professional,

You make some interesting points and I can tell you feel strongly about this, maybe you even feel it's true in your gut, but telling me to just trust the author of a religious text is not very convincing. There are many religious texts in the world, many of which contradict each other, and their followers all want the reader to "just believe". So which one is right? yours? Their's? The other guy's?

This is a possibility but there is no way to know for sure. You may believe with all your soul that this is the truth and I feel that way about stuff too, but when it comes down to it, we have to keep an open mind to any and all possibilities if we are to discover truth at any level and in any circumstance. We have to be objective, open minded, self challenging, fear facing scientists. And don't get me wrong, I'm all about going beyond what we can prove with our senses but the problem with trusting intuition is that humans aren't very evolved at an emotional level. That good feeling could be related to ego, to finding comfort or organisation in a chaotic world, or fear, etc. I agree that our gut should guide the way sometimes but I don't think its the end all and be all of human knowledge.

Blindly following dictation from someone who wrote a book can be tempting at times but it's very dangerous. I suggest asking yourself why you believe in this text so vehemently. What's stopping you from considering that it could all be false? Anything worth believing in is equally worth challenging IMO.

Give me something that backs up your claim otherwise I can't justify contemplating this possibility any further.

Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL

Originally posted by optimus primal
reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL

 

you have had over twelve hours to reply to me with the names and credentials, along with links to articles where they agree with your position, of these so called "scholars" . you have failed to do so.


you are therefore, a liar.

also i would like to call for a closure of this thread as the OP has provided none of the requested or demanded sources.

edit on 6-4-2011 by optimus primal because: (no reason given)

The list is posted previously:
en.wikipedia.org...

Look up this guy for example: Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj Nishapuri
en.wikipedia.org...

most of those people are no longer living. you have also failed to provide , yet again, links to articles where they agree with your position.

I, no doubt, could find a scholar from 200 c.e. to agree with some crazy idea if i wanted. that does not make said idea valid. again dude, provide articles from modern(living) scholars who agree with you, explicitly.

reply to post by optimus primal


Sir Issac newton and einstein are not living now. Are you saying that their works are false? There may be modern day scholars that I am not aware of, heck go to your local mosque firsthand. Even though they are not scholars you can get your questions answered first hand.

reply to post by DrChuck

I can write a novel describing the birth, life, accomplishments and failures of a spaghetti monster; and have IVY league professors accept it as fact. Would that be actual evidence that the spaghetti monster exists?

Well no ivy league professors would accept that anyway cause it is false. There would be more scholars against that fact because the spaghetti monster is fiction to begin with. God is not a fictional person to start with. Those people saw something that we do not see today. Go to your local university and take a few classes on islam just as an introduction or go to your local mosque. The mosque is not scholars but you may have some interesting questiions that can be answered that I am not qualified becasue I am not a scholar.

reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL


You are true 100% , people who are not agree need to watch this interview , link give below

reply to post by mustfarhan


youtube link fix, click here

reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL


I'm not arguing the authenticity or the existence of God, nobody can either prove or disprove that. I'm arguing the irrationality of your arguments. Just because a certain belief is accepted or sanctioned by a group of people doesn't make it factual. Like I said, at one point all the scholars and great minds accepted that the world was flat.

This is why Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Satanism, are all considered RELIGION they are based purely on FAITH. Doctrines from each religion is based upon speculation and interpretation, not concrete evidence or observable and reproducible phenomenon.

Even with science and mathematics our generation is still advancing and discovering/rediscovering. Theories and ideas from the past are always rewritten due to new discoveries in physics, biology and chemistry. That is the great thing about science its constantly changing with each step a closer realization to the truth, it is never dogmatic as religion is.

Also another point is that religion is based on history, so you cannot compare Einstein and Newton with the historical writings of the Koran. The difference between history and science is that once history has passed there is no evidence other than the writings and stories left by the people of that time. Whether these writings are true or not will never be known, we can only compare it to other anecdotes and writings of that time to confirm or reject it. Science on the other hand can be reproducible whether a million years or 2 minutes has passed.

Einsteins and Newtons equations are still used to this day for a plethora of applications and will still be used hundreds of years from now. That is reproducibility.

reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL


the difference with issace newton and einstein , is that other scientists can replicate their work and prove it works by using maths or experimental evidence as proof that it exists.

You cant get a scholar of islam to prove that djinn exist on their word alone !

reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL

wacko juice is free.. good heavens man ... we all know the aliens have a wierd religion or have you
not read the sumerian creation myth..the enuma elish ..read boy the aliens love that stuff the ancient ones and the
worm coming to destroy creation ..yawn old news try gazillions of alien condo's around the moon ..at least this is
actually real
www.1minpages.com...
www.1minpages.com...

Originally posted by DrChuck

This is why Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Satanism, are all considered RELIGION they are based purely on FAITH. Doctrines from each religion is based upon speculation and interpretation, not concrete evidence or observable and reproducible phenomenon.

You could also add UFOlogy and belief in Earth visiting ETs as a type of faith too.

Originally posted by Logical one

Originally posted by DrChuck

This is why Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Satanism, are all considered RELIGION they are based purely on FAITH. Doctrines from each religion is based upon speculation and interpretation, not concrete evidence or observable and reproducible phenomenon.

You could also add UFOlogy and belief in Earth visiting ETs as a type of faith too.

I also consider evolution (well, the monkey to man part- microevolution has been observed and reproduced) a religion.

Originally posted by 23432

Rich almost always exploits the poor . There are exceptions to the rule of course . So we agree that the arrival of Islam actually benefited real flesh and blood human beings who were oppressed due to their poorness or weakness .
In other words , Islam come to protect the weak and vulnerable .

The rich exploit those who allow themselves to be exploited. I think below, however, you have addressed the issue of de facto slavery, though, so I'll take that up in it's proper place. I agree that Islam benefited some people on the Arabian Peninsula - not necessarily because of "oppression" issues, as Islam brought it's own oppression with it, but perhaps culturally in some of the outlying areas (substituting one harsh regime for a harsher one - net gain) and certainly economically, in the distribution of war spoils.

I absolutely DO NOT believe that Islam came "to protect the weak and vulnerable" - it only changed WHO the weak and vulnerable were, and exploited the new weak and vulnerable.

Merchants of Mecca were strong and ruthless indeed .
They have paid a price for their indifference to the suffering of the weak & vulnerable .
If it wasn't for Islam , there would of been another way to attack the power of merchants .
You could say that they were imitating Jesus .
The point is this ; those merchants were at the forefront of exploitation and oppression of the weak .
When we say merchants we really are talking about moneychangers , you do realise this , right ?

Islam was not imitating or emulating Jesus. He did not preach attacking merchants with the sword, nor did he preach violent conquest. When I say "merchants", I mean merchants, not "moneychangers". Moneychangers are one type of merchant, but not all merchants are exclusively moneychangers. Moneychangers have, for example, little need for trade caravans. Their goods are not that bulky. Mohammed himself started out as a merchant, but I don't think he was a moneychanger.

Well , there is no place on earth that this religion has not reached .
I would think it had a rather large success , globally since it's arrival .
If you think about it for a while . An illiterate Arab to dictate a book which would travel all around the world and gets accepted by 1.4 billion human beings !!!
It is almost as funny as an Arab sitting in cave in Afghanistan and attacking western freedoms .

I didn't say that Islam has not been spread to far flung places, I said it was not suited to some of the cultures there, the cultures it attempts to replace. It improves some places, such as Arabia, and makes others worse. Egypt and Andalusia come to mind in the past, and in the present the US, and UK, and even China would be examples.

I never quite grasped how Mohammed conducted trade as a merchant while being illiterate, but the stories say it is so. Could be why he forsook trade and took up religion. I'm not sure "accepted" by 1.4 billion people is the right word. in many if not most of those cases, "enforced" would be more descriptive of reality, especially early on. After a couple of generations, of course, no one is left living to recall what life was like before Islam, and so people become "resigned" to that existence. The Caucasus and the Balkans come to mind as examples.

Well , in all fairness , apples for apples and oranges for oranges .
Western culture doesn't have a claim on the creation of the universe and everything else in sight .
For this reason , it is not reasonable to compare the claims of God and affairs of man made entities / ideologies / beliefs .

Nor can Islam make that claim. As you rightfully observe, ideologies, man made or not, create nothing. Active entities, whether a god or not, are what create, not ideologies or cultures.

If west was to become an interest free society i.e no usury ; who do you think would benefit most ?
Make no mistake , the fight between west and islam is about this very issue .
Just like those merchants back in time .

Can you imagine a mortgage with no interest charges ?

I can't imagine a mortgage at all. What are people thinking when they borrow money like that? Usury or not, it still leaves one beholden to another. What I own, I own outright. No mortgages or credit repayments. I don't even own a credit card. If I can't afford it, I really don't need it.

I have to agree with you though that in some cases, the "rich" in particular, the issue being fought over is usury. For the little people, the peons, not so much. For example, I won't fight Islam over the issue of usury at all. I don't care about it one way or the other. I don't involve myself in it, and am willing to allow others to make up their own minds in the matter.

What I AM willing to fight over is having yet another foreign ideology forced upon me, one that puts my children at risk. I don't particularly care to repress them myself, and will not stand idly by when someone else does, or tries to. Even in matters so simple as a dress code, I will not stand idly by. When the local school system went to standardized dress, I raised hell. As far as I was concerned, my kids would be in uniform soon enough, didn't need to start them off in school insisting that they conform. Ultimately, I pulled them out of school and relocated them, since it was a losing battle, one that I could not win by standing and fighting as I was.

I grew up near a synagoge , church and a mosque . To me they are all for human beings and I am to love the createe because of the creator's sake .
I still live in a city with all sorts of people and things seems ok between everyone , on the whole .

I grew up among missions and missionaries - in America, believe it or not. Catholics had a mission where I grew up. There were no Jews there, but there were some Muslims. That was how I converted to Islam - hanging out with the Muslims.

I don't have issues with what anyone else chooses to believe, be it Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or Animism. I don't care how they choose to believe, and am willing to get along with all. I'm even willing to discuss it, so long as the atmosphere remains cordial. When folks start getting hot under the collar over it, the discussion is over as far as I'm concerned, and if they intend to make me believe their way by force, either of will or of arms, it's on. That goes for Christians OR Muslims, or anyone else with that mindset for that matter.

Where I live now here are all sorts, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Wiccans, Buddhists, and even Animists and people who call themselves "Pagans", which I suppose is a generic term of some sort. I've not really discussed their religion with them very much. There are even a few Sikhs and Hindus here. Religious strife hasn't even entered the equation, so far. We all tend to live and let live in those matters.

Yes, That's what I believe. It may not turn out so well for that individual in the end, or it may, but his ultimate fate is his own choice. It may all depend on whether or not he is ABLE to master himself. Lots of people can't. Nothing will control him that he doesn't allow to control him. In that sense, he has ultimate control over himself, whether for good or for bad.

OK I can agree with this definiton . But I say no human is actually a master of the vessel they inhabit in a macro sense . We still do not know a lot about out bodies let alone our souls .
I think it would be difficult to master the self without sufficient knowledge .
An illusion of mastery at it's best .

I'd have to agree that it's not just difficult, but much closer to impossible, to master the self without sufficient knowledge. Most never gain that knowledge, preferring to run with the pack, or conform to whatever is handed to them. Mastery of the self involves knowledge not only of self, but also what is external and local, and knowledge of other beliefs as well. One can not make an informed decision if one doesn't have the information to make it - he then only goes through the motions, and accepts whatever is given as fact.

Even the Qur'an says that there is no compulsion in matters of religion. Would that everyone could live by that, and discuss things like grownups.

But humans by and large do live like that and will live like that in future as well . I think you believe the hype too much .

No, I agree. That IS how most humans live. There are, however, certain element willing to apply force to further and even export their own systems, and that is what I condemn as a strife-causing agent. Whether it's al Qaida trying to institute a "global Caliphate", or the US trying to "spread democracy" or " nation build", it's all the same to me. It's some one trying to force their system on some one else who wants no part of it, and it's wrong.

...(large quote removed for brevity)...

Me thinks you misunderstood the Djinns .

I appreciate the quotes from the Qur'an, but didn't see anything in them to indicate that Djinn are anything other than beings or a belief local to Arabia. Nor did I see anything there to indicate that they would be more powerful than a man, nor especially dangerous or helpful to one.

My understanding of what Djinn are supposed to be goes farther back than the institution of Islam, by roughly 3000 to 3500 years. The belief has been around much longer than Islam.

Originally posted by 23432

Originally posted by DragonriderGal

Them on top and all the rest of us as peons and slaves. Just the way they like it and think it should be.

Unfortune as it is , you are not incorrect . The real question is this imho ; do humans like to be slaves once captured ?
Evidence suggest , yes , humans like slavery because it is easier .

This is where you addressed slavery, which I mentioned above. I agree that most humans DO seem to prefer slavery. Not because it's easier, but because they know no other or better way. This is where the knowledge I mentioned above comes in. In order to make an informed decision, one must have knowledge of self, knowledge of his surroundings, and knowledge of other systems, other options, the greater universe.

Such knowledge is what repressive systems seek to destroy, in order to keep the individual from finding out that there is a better way, thus mastering himself and ending his slavery and servitude to that system. Most people cannot be bothered to gain, or even seek, that knowledge, so the task is generally easy for the masters. They simply hand out the version of "truth" they want the people to conform to, the people conform to it, secure in the knowledge that they have the "truth", and never, ever think outside that box.

Or try to break their chains.

This is why Capitalism brooks no talk of Communism, Communism brooks no talk of Capitalism, and why various religions "discourage" exploration of others, or penalize apostasy. They lose slaves when that happens, and stand in danger of losing slaves even if discussion of the matter is allowed.

reply to post by nenothtu


Nah, I'm not with any 'crowd' of the current group of beliefs/spins the NWO is putting out there in the spirit realm. They know that level of awareness exists and so make sure anyone going out there unaware of them and their plans will get some kind of 'story' about the possibility of aliens and the history of the world and such. And I do agree with a LOT of what you say. We are the creators of our own reality; we've just been trained to believe otherwise, because it makes us far more biddable. Manifesting is one of the most powerful forces in the universe.

Anyway, as to the reality of the NWO bunch, I see the greys bringing this group of aliens, the Jue-sah (who are the heart and soul of their current face, the NWO bunch), to earth, to manage us after we humans got so out of control. Part of the deal was that the Jue-sah would own us when the greys got their possible extinction problem solved. Of course they didn't, and the Jue-sah just decided they'd take us when that became clear to them. That was around the beginning of the 20th century, and since they are on a deadline (a contract with the overarching sentience of our racial unconscious), they have been really pushing hard to gain control of us. The whole world of us, although if they get their way, that number of humans would be culled severely.

But as I pointed out, for the most part they are not very bright; and all the final orders come from the few Jue-sah still in alien form, so they have no ability to gather information from our racial unconscious. Plus they don't trust their human flunkies all that much (even though they all are ex-Jue-sah) and so often disregard the advice given by them. After all this time where we've blindsided them with unexpected and effective solutions and gotten out from under their thumbs, you think they'd listen to their human advisers more, but no. The still alien Jue-sah believe they know better. Luckily for us.

And ya, even doing their best, this world is a serious free for all. In part this is because most of the spirits here aren't human in origins, and what is 'true' and 'right' for an ex-elf (and their instinctive spirit preferences), is definitely not 'true' or 'right' for an ex-grey, or an ex-blue (I think they are the ones calling themselves the Pleadiaens), or a fairy, or unicorn or a wise mother and so on. I honestly believe we won't ever meet an alien we don't recognize, because all of the species around here have representatives in human bodies and their spirits are now in OUR racial unconscious where we can learn about them. But it makes it impossible for us to agree on any kind of one world government other than the kind the NWO are attempting by using trickery and brute force.

One of the ways the NWO bunch (under one of it's many other guises throughout history) has managed to convince us that there are no aliens was to turn them into 'gods', which prevents us from wondering about them as actual physical beings. The ancient humans didn't question a 'god', but if they'd realized that these were indeed merely mortal beings from other worlds, they might have been a lot more dangerous to those aliens (although most are essentially immortal because they can heal themselves with raw energy and such), so the aliens went along with the whole 'there are no aliens, only gods' thing willingly.

You are correct when you say that the spirit and the body are two different things. The car/driver analogy is a great one to describe it. But the coming full enlightenment that we'll be making will involve being able to shift our bodies, our actual physical bodies into spirit/light form, and talk about powerful. Whew! As spirits we are kind of wispy, some more than others, but when we can take our physical bodies with us, there will be no limit to what we can do and accomplish. That is why the greys and the elves are so interested in how we do that.

And really, true spirituality isn't all that hard. It is mostly being aware of what your higher self is telling you and acting on that information, versus trying to twist yourself into knots 'being' what some NWO-written crap tells you you should be. The NWO bunch aka Jue-sah had a hand in writing or in some cases, rewriting EVERY SINGLE RELIGIOUS TEXT, ancient to new, in existence. They found that 'religion' was the number one most effective way to manipulate and control us---mostly so we wouldn't get so angry and try to kill them for abusing us, which they've done almost since day one.

That is why there is so much focus on 'love'. Oh you know how many 'religions' insist that 'love' is the 'higher' emotion and anger is bad, bad, bad... in reality, both are valuable and necessary; it is the balance and not letting either one 'rule' you, that is the key. I mean what dictator wouldn't love a bunch of slaves that never revolted, no matter what they did to them, because their religion forbid 'violence'.

The Islamic religion was originally their creation too, but the blues refocused and re-aimed it back at the NWO bunch, because those two, the Jue-sah and the Blues have an extremely long history of hatred between them, like the 'to the death' kind of hatred similar to the Hatfields and Mccoys, which is why there will never be peace in the middle east. The Jue-sah tend to reincarnate as jews; the blues tend to reincarnate as arabs. Until they address this hatred on the spirit level where it is starting, they won't ever find a way to reconcile their differences.

Also, so much of why we are different from the rest of the aliens can be attributed to the grey's manipulation of our genetics while they were first storing their little grey spirits in human bodies so they could still get some work out of them.
-The inability to work with raw energy for the most part (we were getting into their experiments and making a general mess out of things).
-Not remembering past lives (their little greys in human bodies were very sad because they couldn't access the 'bliss' state which is what they do instead of sleep).
-Living much shorter lives (the Jus-sah pointed out how fast we were reproducing).
-The increased will to live (their little worker greys were just laying down and dying and they weren't going to let that happen with the greys in human bodies).
-The amped up spirit capturing quality of the human body (had to get those little grey spirits back into bodies somehow, never mind the other aliens that would get sucked in too).
-The shutting down of most of our psychic abilities (so their little greys in human bodies wouldn't get contaminated by 'alien' thoughts).
And this is only the major things they did.

It also explains why these human bodies have some funky problems. The greys never intended to have these bodies be permanent. They were just a fill in until they could get their extinction problem figured out. These bodies are actually rather slipshod work by grey standards.

But it is important to realize that the greys aren't bad guys though. They are actually kind of on our side, although they always prefer to stay neutral if possible. Not one of these things were done for malicious reasons or even with the idea that they were creating a sentient species in mind. It was all about the 'now' for the greys, with no thought about the long term consequences. It is a species trait that has caused them a lot of grief across the millenia.

And really, there will be no 'proof' allowed to be known about the spirit realm stuff, or reincarnation or aliens, for as long as the NWO can keep us from knowing via their lapdog media. They've trained a lot of humans to accept as 'truth' what they hear on the NWO owned TV and in their 'officially approved' newspapers/magazines, and anything from any other source, especially the internet, as suspect and unreliable, and not to be believed, no matter how convincing or compelling the evidence presented.

For example that whole 911 scam. Funny how it never gets mentioned that an unknown amount of gold (possibly in the billions since several countries were storing their foundation for their currency gold there) was stolen from the underground vaults in the hours just prior to the 'attack' with one truck full of it ($280+ million) unable to make it out in time and trapped in the exit tunnels, or that whole sheared metal support beams that had to have been cut by a shaped charge, not to mention I've seen demolitions of buildings that weren't dropped as neatly as those trade towers.. oh I could go on, but won't. You get the picture though, I think.

And please, don't get me started on what they are trying to do to the health of the people of this world... Insidious insertions of GMO foods and Lapdog big Pharma has way much to do with a lot of that...

But yes. they really would prefer you believe they don't exist. Unfortunately for them though, their grimy little pawprints are all over everything in the history of the world and in current day events in our racial unconscious, so it is kind of hard to overlook them there.

Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
reply to post by optimus primal

 

Sir Issac newton and einstein are not living now. Are you saying that their works are false? There may be modern day scholars that I am not aware of, heck go to your local mosque firsthand. Even though they are not scholars you can get your questions answered first hand.

not at all. but i wouldn't say that their opinions of the day had any bearing on quantum mechanics, or that because they said one thing that nothing else is possible.

so basically you're saying you can't provide any articles or papers by living scholars that agree with you. and that the majority of those you can provide as scholars have been dead for centuries and themselves never stated what you claim. mosque priests(whatever their called i'm not aware of the correct terminology) are not scholars. their answers would be no better than going to any random muslim and saying " hey are aliens djinn?" .

provide articles where living scholars, hell even scholars who lived in the last fifty years but are now dead, agree with your position. this goes to your claim that scholars agree with you, if you can't provide them, you have lied. As well the whole premise for your thread is null and void.


i'd also like to point out to the others discussing in this thread, that the OP has not provided evidence of these scholars he keeps referencing ever agreeing with him.

reply to post by grandmarkai


So because you think I should fear the violent response of a gang of thugs I shouldn't accuse them of falsehood?

Hell man if that's how I lived life then I would be one of the cowering masses.

I think the OP has a valid opinion, but that's all it is, and unfortunately he appears a brainwashed member of the same thug society who want's us to disprove every line in his magic book. Shouldn't it be enough to disprove one line of any text hand delivered by "GoD"? If any of this bull# was really from an omnipotent higher power than they would be perfect, the bible would have talked about the millions of years when "GoD" played with his dinosaurs, and the Koran/Quran wouldn't claim that the giant ball of energy we know as the sun was a disk.

Those who have faith but are willing to admit to the imperfection of their learning tools I have respect for but I often question why I should Tolerate all these "Believers"? Truth is if any of your religions succeed in dominating the planet with their dogma, all non-theist like myself will be executed, by your own doctrines, and thereby I shouldn't worry if the "Aliens" are Djinn, extradimensional, lucifurien etc. What I should worry about is how the religious desire to argue about things that matter to those of us who are faithless, while all the while their only desire is my destruction and there complete controll of the world.

Ever wonder why so many religious people fear an all powerful planetary government? Could it be because that is and has always been the goal of organized religion, perfect unending oligarchy? Are they just pissed that it looks like someone else's mumbojumbo will be the universal paradigm? Don't worry I'll fight Satan's army just as hard as I will fight God's, same army of zombie followers anyway.

Originally posted by sapien82
reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL

 

the difference with issace newton and einstein , is that other scientists can replicate their work and prove it works by using maths or experimental evidence as proof that it exists.

You cant get a scholar of islam to prove that djinn exist on their word alone !

What if an event happened once and did not chose to repeat itself on purpose such as God revealing himself only once as a test. You can't possibly replicate that. There are things that cannot be replicated such as the Big Bang.

Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL

Originally posted by sapien82
reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL

 

the difference with issace newton and einstein , is that other scientists can replicate their work and prove it works by using maths or experimental evidence as proof that it exists.

You cant get a scholar of islam to prove that djinn exist on their word alone !

What if an event happened once and did not chose to repeat itself on purpose such as God revealing himself only once as a test. You can't possibly replicate that. There are things that cannot be replicated such as the Big Bang.

You just explained why religion cannot be proven, they are historical anecdotes. True, the Big Bang cannot be replicated, only speculated with tons of evidence. The Big Bang is merely a theory, subject to modifications and total rejection as more evidence and information is attained.

reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL


large hadron collider is our attempt at replicating the big bang , havent you read about it on here sure you have !
it is possible for us to replicate these conditions