Goldstone is reconsidering his Report on Israel and war crimes

Better late then never.

"Reconsidering the Goldstone Report on Israel and war crimes
By Richard Goldstone, Friday, April 1, 8:42 PM

We know a lot more today about what happened in the Gaza war of 2008-09 than we did when I chaired the fact-finding mission appointed by the U.N. Human Rights Council that produced what has come to be known as the Goldstone Report. If I had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different document.”

www.washingtonpost.com...

Well Mr' Goldstone, many of us could have saved you a lot of time if only you weren't so gullible double standards kind of guy in the first place. I expect you now to make that statement loud and clear on every media out there, as determent as when you were in a hurry to make such hasty accusations.

reply to post by gravitational


Yes, it seems more information is available today. Goldstone said knowing what he knows today his conclusions may be different, He did not however say no war crimes were committed by Israel. We must remember the report was issued in his name as the chairman of the investgating team. There were a lot of others on the team and we are waiting to hear from them. In my mind the report stands as written until a new report is generated. Until then one must wonder if the Mossad dug up a little embarassing dirt on Goldstone to cause him to reconsider. If the other members of the team standfast the original report will stand.

reply to post by gem_man

reply to post by gem_man


I usually don't read or write predictions threads, but my first prediction here was you are about to write something along those lines i.e mossad did this bla bla...
My second prediction is, whether or not the rest of Goldston's team state the same, you will still spread accusations against Israel regardless of facts, counting on people's short memory.

reply to post by gravitational


Not true Grav, If a new report is created amending the original report I will defend and except it. Stop and think, Israel has been accused of war crimes after a careful investigation. Goldstones team amassed a lot of evidence that documented war crimes.
Israel then decides to investigate itself and concludes no war crimes were committed. All the documented war crimes were committed not by the Israeli command but by individual commanders error or mis-calculations during the fog of war. I have no doubt that that was certainly the case in some of the actions that would initially appear as crimes but I equally have no doubt, based on the irrrefutable evidence presented in the report that war crimes and crimes against humanity were in fact committed by the State of Israel. War crimes are too important a crime to be investigated by the accused. Had the Germans investigated themselves I doubt they would have found themselves guilty.
Goldstone for some reason is beginning to accept the conclusions of the accused. Some of it , Israels conclusions, do make sense to me albiet not all. I have said in the past that Hamas leaders, based on the report are also guilty of war crimes and their leaders should also be brought to justice. It is interresting to note that Goldstone has not said no war crimes were commited by Israel, only that based on additional information resulting from the Israeli investigation HIS coclusions would be different. His new conclusions may not reflect the majority opinion of the investigative team and therefore the original report will stand as written. If in fact the report remains unamended both Hamas and Israeli leaders need to be brought to justice.

The Goldstone report was born in sin.

Human rights council's prejudicial mandate to Goldston's commision was: "to investigate the grave war crimes Israel committed in Gaza". Israel was blamed for war crimes before the investigation had begun. Is it surprising that Israel refused to take part in such a farce?
Panel member Christine Chinkin, branded Israel's Gaza operation a "war crime" before the inquiry had even begun.

You should take some time and read the following web site about this alleged “neutral honest” report.
www.thegoldstonereport.com...

reply to post by gravitational


I guess so. It's amazing what threats and bribes can accomplish.

reply to post by gravitational


Because the fact of the matter is, Israels war on Gaza was a war crime, civilians were killed by IDF raids. Are you living in lala land? What Israel did in Gaza is unacceptable, and those panel members knew it. But that doesn't mean they didn't have a un-biased thorough investigation.

Point is, Israel & Hamas did commit war crimes, but Israel being a major power should have acted differently. As a nation with nuclear weapons, they should be a little more responsible with the way they act.

Plus, if you look at who did what, Hamas merely shot off mortar/rockets that were very inaccurate. Keep that in mind while you read about SOME of Israels war crimes during the Gaza War:

2009 Ibrahim al-Maqadna Mosque strike
The 2009 Ibrahim al-Maqadna Mosque strike occurred on January 3, 2009 as part of the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza War when an Israeli missile hit the Ibrahim al-Maqadna mosque in the Gaza strip during evening prayers. Witnesses said over 200 Palestinians were praying inside at the time. At least thirteen people, including six children, were killed, and many more wounded. The mosque, located in the town of Beit Lahiya in the Gaza Strip, is named after a founder of Hamas who was killed by the Israelis in 2004.

Zeitoun Incident
The Zeitoun incident refers to the Israeli military incursion, led by the Givati Brigade unit of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), in the Zeitoun district of Gaza as part of the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict. In the Arab world, the name Zeitoun District Massacre (Arabic: مجزرة حي الزيتون‎) is used to refer to any of the incidents in Zeitoun. A total of 48 people were killed and 27 homes, a mosque and a number of farms were destroyed. Zeitoun residents believe that because the area is a natural choke point close to the Israeli border, Israeli troops turned the Zeitoun neighborhoods into a military base from which they launched their operations.

Al-Fakhura school incident
The al-Fakhura School incident refers to events that took place nearby a United Nations run school of al-Fakhura located in the Jabaliya refugee camp in the Gaza Strip on January 6, 2009 during the Gaza War. In response to alleged militant gunfire coming from beside the school, the IDF fired upon the targets that the UN and several NGOs say killed 42, 41 of them civilians, and that according to the IDF killed 9 Hamas militants and 3 noncombatants. In April 2009, PCHR listed 12 people as killed "near" the school and another 8 "opposite" the school. Several people listed as civilians in the PCHR report are claimed by Hamas as its fighters according to Israeli think tank ICT. In the last week of January, the UN explicitly clarified that no deaths occurred within the building itself and that the rounds struck the street outside the school. A "clerical error" in UN reports had previously stated otherwise.

If Goldstone retracts, he's just as much a piece of # as the people he helped bring down in South Africa.

reply to post by gravitational


There's probably some politics at play here, it's more than just his conscience alone, but either way this should hold some weight.. If you don't believe him now, why should you believe him when he made the report? As if there's no way he'd been influenced in any way by anyone?

He does not exonerate Israel, he simply says the report lacks information that's important to understanding the "why" or certain events, rather than the "what", and that he sees now that the Israeli army did not intentionally target civilians as a matter of policy..

He in no way exonerates anyone from any war crime, he simply says an army can't be expected to have complete control over every situation..

Indeed, our main recommendation was for each party to investigate, transparently and in good faith, the incidents referred to in our report. McGowan Davis has found that Israel has done this to a significant degree; Hamas has done nothing.

In the end this is all that matters. War crimes happen in any way, sadly.

reply to post by BiGGz


The IDF went in because Hamas had spent the past 7 years firing rockets at homes.. What difference does it make if they're accurate or not?

Once they were in Gaza they were met with heavy resistance..

1) A missile hit a mosque- And that couldn't have been human error, right? Couldn't have been a mistake? No, the reason must be because the Israeli army wanted to kill civilians, right?

2) 48 people killed in Zaitun- What people? Combatants or not? How were they killed? Why? Have you got any info on the incident at all or do you just take anything for granted as long is it enforces your beliefs?
I'll tell you one thing for sure, there is no way, simply no way, that the Israeli soldiers just went around and shot people down, if that's what you're imagining. No freaking way, and I'm willing to bet on it.

3) A "clerical error" in UN reports had previously stated otherwise- Un-freaking-Believeable! Is this your example? NGOs and U.N workers lying about incidents? That's exactly what Goldstone is talking about, this is exactly why the report is completely skewed...

Let me tell you something, when you're being shot at, you shoot back, otherwise you die. Now, you might be a nobler man than I, and you might take a bullet and let your friends die on account of the chance that maybe there's a civilian standing with the combatant that's shooting you, I won't.
And shame on them for using civilians as human shields.

The fact is you're completely detached from the reality of combat, and the fact that you can't understand that war crimes happen in any war, in any army, and that it does not necessarily mean that the entire army is criminal is just your blind bias doing the thinking for you.

reply to post by BiGGz


Israels war on Gaza in of itself was not a war crime as waging war is not a crime. It is done all the time. i.e., Iraq, Afganistan, Libya, etc. There are always reasons for war either real or imagined but reasons important to those that instigate war. Just prior to the Gaza war (Cast Lead) Israel and Hamas were in a "cease fire" Hamas was interrested in continueing the ceasefire but in November prior to the onstart of war Israel herself broke the calm by killing some Hamas operatives. It was at this point the rockets started to land. Israel then used the rockets as justification for the attack. Israel certainly knew Hamas would respond to the killing of their comrades and I believe counted on it.

As for war crimes being commited By Israel during Cast lead? The Goldstone Report makes it clear with abundant evidence that war crimes most likely occured. The Question is were the crimes the POLICY of the top IDF commanders? Personally, I think not. Typically field commanders are charged with a particular mission and it is pretty much left up to the field commanders how to accomplish their mission. For any action to be considered a war crime it must be INTENTIONAL. Mistakes are NOT a war crime. Tragic perhaps, but not a war crime. However if a soldier for instance shoots unarmed civilians it IS a war crime and that soldier should be punished. If a field commander purposfully orders a missle fired upon a target with civilians not showing an imminent threat, That COULD be considered a war crime. Mosques, hospitals, school, water treatment plants, dairy farms, chicken farms,flour mills are examples of non military targets that may not be attacked unless a military presence is certain. Since the Goldstone report showed all of the exampled civilian targets were in fact attacked It would be prudent for the IDF to interview the field commanders to ascertain if the attacks were intentional and the actual reason for the attack. IF there was no military reason the field commander should be prosecuted. It is my belief they were interviewed but to date I have not heard of any prosecutions.

Israel has the youngest military in the world outside of Africa. (age wise) These young men and women are unlikely to understand what a war crime is. Especially when the fear of bodily harm or death is foremost in their minds. They are likely to shoot anything that moves. I would not presume shooting out of intense fear would be considered a war crime.

In any case Israels investigation exonerated Israel. (I am equally sure had the Germans investigated themselves no guilt would have been found) OK, Israel is not at fault but individual soldiers are. So Israel must come to the realization that in all wars, war crimes occur and if the State is not at fault because it was not their policy then, as painful as it might be, they must prosecute field commanders and soldiers that did in fact commit war crimes. This is very important as if they do not they leave themselves and their soldiers liable for war crime trials in the future outside of Israel. They could easily be kidnapped abroad (apparently legal) and spirited away to a country that would be willing to try them. (don't think it won't happen) Could be 30-40 years from now but it will happen. Many organisations have amassed evidenced and are just waiting for an opportunity.

As far as Goldstone is concerned, he has been villifed constantly since the report and undoubtedly has been pressured to make the comments he made. Perhaps by his family, perhaps by Mossad or perhaps by an inner feeling that he should have softened the final conclusions of the report.

reply to post by gravitational


Already a thread on ATS...

reply to post by Eliad


Yep it was all Hamas' fault..

Because of the lopsided balance of power, negotiations went nowhere and the Palestinians' hopes were never fulfilled. The Israelis, regardless of which government was in power, quibbled over wording, demanded revisions of what had previously been agreed to, then refused to abide by the new agreements. Meanwhile successive governments were demolishing Palestinian homes, taking over Arab neighborhoods in East Jerusalem for Jewish housing, and seizing Palestinian land for new settlements. A massive new highway network built after 1993 on confiscated Palestinian land isolates Palestinian towns and villages from one another and from Jerusalem, forcing many Palestinians to go through Israeli checkpoints just to get to the next town...

www.wrmea.com...

Nothing to do with Israel not wanting peace..

Palestinians dead: TOTAL 1,166 / 1,417 (IDF / PCHR)
Civilians: 295 / 926 (IDF / PCHR)

Israelis dead: TOTAL 13 (inc: 4 by way of Friendly Fire)
Civilians: 3

White Phosphorous admitted by Israel to provide a 'smokescreen'
DIME weapons most likely used (Norwegian doctors in Palestine)
IDF ADMITTED to indiscriminate civilian targetting

Hamas complied fully with Goldstone report
Israel refused and conducted BIASED internal investigation

Stop sympathizing with these murderous bastards. Because of Israels disproportionate conduct in ALL conflicts the majority of rational thinkers wouldn't begin to defend their actions. Roll on May 15th Third Intifada.

reply to post by Pr0t0


Do you even know what DIME weapon is and why does it contradicts with your claims?
Do you know that by calling for a third Intifada here on ATS, you are in fact calling for the murder of Israeli civilians ?

reply to post by gravitational


The DIME weapon is a "genotoxic" weapon
QUOTE"DIME bombs produce an unusually powerful blast within a relatively small area, spraying a superheated “micro-shrapnel” of powdered Heavy Metal Tungsten Alloy (HMTA). Scientific studies have found that HMTA is chemically toxic, damages the immune system, rapidly causes cancer, and attacks DNA (genotoxic)."http://futurenewstoday.blogspot.com/2009/01/israel-uses-experimental-genotoxic.html
Doesn't sound nice! But could be effective if you wanted to destroy a population.
I might add that calling for an Intifada is the same as calling for war and is "hate speech". No place for that here.

reply to post by backinblack


Never said it was all Hamas' fault, I explained why the IDF needed to go in.

Hope you don't really believe all that bull# that you quoted... There are always two sides at play, there's reason for every action Israel and the IDF does.

With respect,
Eliad.

You're both wrong:

Intifada (انتفاضة intifāḍa(t)) is an Arabic word which literally means "shaking off," though it is usually translated into English as "uprising" or "resistance" or "rebellion". It is often used as a term for popular resistance to oppression.

An Intifada is not necessarily violent. Have you not heard of the planned PEACEFUL march of Palestinian refugees of all ME nations to Israel on May 15th? If there is any violence, I'm willing to bet it will start with the IDF.

And, yes, I'm fully aware of Dense Inert Metal Explosive weapons and though they are intended to limit collateral damage by reducing the blast radius, their long term affects on the nervous system is postulated to be catastrophic for those locally exposed, though not enough human testing has been carried out, plenty of testing with animals suggests this type of weaponry can be devastating long-term.

Would you care to further question my morals having openly promoted the use of these weapons?

reply to post by gem_man


The first part about DIME type of weapons that are meant to minimize collateral damage, is the only real substantiated fact. The rest, concerning the properties of inert metals remains a speculation and over inflated by propagandists such as Dr' Mads Gilbert who were caught fabricating scenes in Gaza. I'm not surprised you gladly adopt such speculations. But hey, maybe Israel should have dropped a 1 ton bombs instead of every DIME one. I'm sure that would have been more satisfactory. For all sides involved.

reply to post by Pr0t0


Do you think we are naïve idiots?
I'm sure anyone with an ounce of honesty remembers what took place during the first and mostly the second Intifada. There was nothing peaceful about it. It was a call for the barbaric masses to start a bloodshed by attacking Jewish civilians all over Israel. Unless blowing yourself up in a gathering place of mothers with their newly born babies is considered peaceful by your standards.