The Forgotten Victims to a Genuine Conspiracy

reply to post by angus1745


Hey angus1745, thanks for your post.

I've been of the belief for a few years now that you can actually see the driver of the limo turn and shoot JFK in the face the moment his head explodes in the famous Zapruder film. Now, the thing is most people dont see it not because they arent looking for it but because its so blatant

I have to admit, I strongly disagree with this conclusion. That being so, Admittedly on the Zapruder film, something we both agree has been edited, Greer, the driver, does seem to turn around (turning around and looking at the president something he has always claimed he did I believe). But IMO, there is no way he could've actually shot him. Someone simply would've noticed It - particularly Jean Hill or Beverly Oliver for example as they were 2 of the closest people to the president. But they didn't and no one else did.

Let's not forget that we have literally hundreds of other witnesses present here also - many of them such as Billy Lovelady for example - the man stood at the steps of the TSBD building, claim the shots fired, at least 3 of them, had come from the Grassy Knoll location. Lee Bowers, as well as many on the nearby overpass claim they even saw a flash of light and smoke from here also.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c1f13cafdbc7.jpg[/atsimg]

That's why in the image above, taken directly after the shooting, many of the witnesses ran up to the grassy knoll in search of the killer - That's where they thought he and the fatal shot had originally come from. If the shot fired came from inside the actual car itself, well, again, something just would have noticed it and we wouldn't be debating it here today.

It's an interesting theory no doubt, but I can't ever seeing it possessing any truth.

reply to post by baddmove


Thanks BM!

Out of curiosity though, what are your thoughts on this case - particularly the demise of the witnesses?

reply to post by lonegurkha


I know what you mean. When 9/11 hit for example, I was quite young myself, and although I knew what had just happened, I couldn't quite comprehend the sheer scale of the event still. At the same time, the reactions of those around me was just overwhelming. I can still remember It clearly today. As I always say, If a picture was taken then, It would say more than a thousand words, that's for sure.

I guess ignorance is bliss when you're young really.

And agreed, although I wasn't around then (the times of JFK), I feel I can still munderstand that "back then" we almost lived in a completely different world that the "here and now." Today is seemingly an age where limits on what's seen as acceptable are pushed every day. To the point of seeing death occur, like you say you saw with Oswald, is shown on TV shows and movies on a regular basis - and with more blood and gore than is perhaps necessary.

You made another interesting point there as well btw. I do wonder how ATS would survive if it was thrown into a different age? I would imagine not very well though...

reply to post by NowanKenubi


That's a really great post from you NowanKenubi, really great.

When I was reading it though, for some reason, I couldn't help but think back to the 2 men close to the presidential motorcade at the time of the shooting of Kennedy. The Umbrella man (TUM) and the DCM (Dark complected man) - the latter of which is suspected to be none other than Eladio Del Valle whom I mentioned in my OP.

You see, I'll explain in a moment why you're post reminded me of them, but for now, I'll explain what's odd about them and to do that, the best and easier thing to do would be to show some of these images below. By seeing them, you'll notice they (the 2 men) are showing particular odd behaviors such as apparent signaling as well as holding an umbrella and hoisting it into the air despite a warm, cloudless Texas day at the moment Kennedy is passing by. Why would they do this I wonder?:

(Here they both are in one of the clearest images of them)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9a1ed2902059.gif[/atsimg]

(Here's a great image showing what they were doing and how close to Kennedy they were also)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/51f0ff33a677.gif[/atsimg]

(Notice how others are shielding thee children in the background, all the while TUM and DCM aren't looking particularly scarred by the events which have just taken place to the leader of there country)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/67fce3bbe96e.jpg[/atsimg]

(And finally, here is one last image from a different view of what they were doing at the moment of Kennedy's shooting)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f49ef25972fe.jpg[/atsimg]

Notice the umbrella is in the air at the time of the shooting in the above image, as well as the arm of the DCM (I suspect he/they was signaling to the grassy knoll shooter that Kennedy was still alive thus the need for a final shot)

Here is DCM with what appears to be a radio as well, and you know what's quite interesting about this? A man in the nearby Rail yard (Lee Bowers - also mentioned in my OP here) had allegedly picked up what was said (although I believe was ignored by the Warren Commition):

(Radio in the back pocket)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/06d8cc20e7da.jpg[/atsimg]

(Talking on the radio after the shooting had taken place?)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a25da34a48f1.jpg[/atsimg]

According to a CIA whistlelblower (Robert D. Meadows I believe), here is what Eladio Del Valle, the man I suspect of being the DCM, said prior to the assassination of Kennedy also:

Former CIA contract agent Robert D. Morrow, In his frightening and detailed narrative, First Hand Knowledge--How I participated in the CIA-Mafia Murder of President Kennedy (1992, Shapolsky), may provide some insight. Morrow, an electronics expert, claims that in the summer of 1963, CIA head of Domestic Operations Officer Tracy Barnes, ordered him to procure four Mannlicher 7.35 rifles and four small radio transceivers.

My involvement with the plans to assassinate John F. Kennedy commenced at the end of June, 1963. On July 1, I was contacted by [CIA head of Domestic Operations Officer] Tracy Barnes. He requested that I purchase four Mannlicher 7.35 mm surplus rifles. According to Barnes, the rifles were available in the Baltimore area from Sunny's Supply Stores. Upon my agreement to make the purchase, Barnes requested that I alter the forepiece of each rifle so that the rifles could be dismantled, hidden and reassembled quickly. I thought this last request odd until I was informed that the rifles were to be used for a clandestine operation.

One day later I received a second phone call. It was [Eladio] del Valle calling from, I assumed, Miami. He asked me to supply him with four transceivers which were not detectable by any communications equipment then available on the market. Although his request seemed impossible, I told him that I had an idea which might fulfill his requirement. I could provide him with sub-miniaturized units whose operation would be confined to a range of fifty or one hundred kilohertz. To operate any sizable distance, the units would require an antenna at least several feet in length. A wire taped to the user's leg would easily suffice for this purpose. The set-up would not be pretty, but I could assure him that no one would be monitoring these low frequencies.

Del Valle then requested that I deliver the transceivers and the rifles to David Ferrie. I was surprised by Ferrie's involvement in the transaction. Barnes, in our previous conversation, had neither informed me that the rifles were being made for Clay Shaw in New Orleans nor that David Ferrie would be the person responsible for picking them up once I had completed the required alterations. Del Valle explained to me that the rifles and communications equipment were for his Free Cuba Committee, and that Clay and Ferrie were assisting him in the operation. I assured him that the equipment would be ready on time as I would immediately order the Motorola-made special transceiver units. Motorola was manufacturing the units for railroad communications equipment; they were relatively easy to secure. [emphasis added]

The radio transceivers for del Valle were more difficult to create than I had originally thought they'd be. An unusual amount of power was required for them to transmit over any significant distance. To solve this dilemma, I included an extra pack of four "D" type battery cells to be used for transmitting purposes only. The pack was plugged into the transceiver unit and could easily be carried in the user's pocket. Ironically, I later learned from del Valle that the transmission time was to be limited to five minutes, which meant my additional adjustments had been unnecessary.

(Source)

Del Valle then goes on to say:

"They had better be perfect, compadre. They are for Texas! ...Kennedy is going to get it in Dallas!" as they was seemingly having trouble with them.

And furthermore the radio equipment he chooses just happens to operate in the ultra-low frequency range that is shared with railroad communications equipment--the same sort of equipment Lee Bowers would have been familiar with in his job in the railroad switching tower.

Technically savvy readers will note that the frequency band of 50 - 100 kilohertz is extremely low in terms of conventional radio transmissions. A simple investigation has revealed that the only entities which are authorized by the FCC to use this range--other than railroad employees--are military submarines, who exploit the long-wave characteristics of the energy for long-range underwater communications.

(Source)

According to Bowers:

Bowers made two significant observations which he revealed to the Commission. First, he saw three unfamiliar cars slowly cruising around the parking area in the 35 minutes before the assassination; the first two left after a few minutes. The driver of the second car appeared to be talking into "a mike or telephone" - "he was holding something up to his mouth with one hand and he was driving with the other."

(Source)

A third car, with out-of-state plates and mud up to the windows, probed all around the parking area. Bowers last remembered seeing it about eight minutes before the shooting, pausing "just above the assassination site." He gave detailed descriptions of the cars and their drivers.

(Source)

Bowers also observed two unfamiliar men standing on top of the Knoll at the edge of the parking lot, within 10 or 15 feet of each other - "one man, middle-aged or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about mid-twenties, in either a plaid shirt or a plaid coat or jacket." Both were facing toward Elm and Houston, where the motorcade would be coming from. They were the only strangers he remembered seeing. His description shows a remarkable similarity to Julia Ann Mercer's description of two unidentified men climbing the knoll.

When the shots rang out, Bowers' attention was drawn to the area where he had seen the two men; he could still make out the one in the white shirt - "the darker dressed man was too hard to distinguish from the trees." He observed "some commotion" at that spot, "...something out of the ordinary, a sort of milling around...which attracted my eye for some reason, which I could not identify." At that moment, he testified, a motorcycle policeman left the Presidential motorcade and roared up the Grassy Knoll straight to where the two mysterious gentlemen were standing behind the fence. The policeman dismounted, Bowers recalled, then after a moment climbed on his motorcycle and drove off. Later, in a film interview with attorney Mark Lane, he explained that the "commotion" that caught his eye may have been "a flash of light or smoke." His information dovetails with what other witnesses observed from different vantage points.

(Source)


Anyway, I feel I may have gone off-topic (all of the above is just what I had to get off my chest about these 2 individuals real quick, lol).

The reason I'm bringing all of this up though, was because your post reminded me of something I could remember reading not very long ago, something that shows what some suspect already - that DMC and the umbrella man had more of a hand in the assassination that we suspect:

Please see this interesting link

Most people who've seen the Zapruder Film of the events in Dealey Plaza have probably never noticed a man holding an open black umbrella. But once he's pointed out you can't miss him - he's right beneath the big STEMMON'S FREEWAY sign. To JFK "buffs" and "conspiracy theorists" this man is known as TUM (The Umbrella Man) and some suspect he played a part in the assassination.

(Source)

Originally posted by NEWclearMind
reply to post by Rising Against

 

Awesome work, star and flag. No doubt LBJ was responsible

Thanks and agreed - LBJ was certainly involved. Here is my post from earlier on in this thread where I discussed his involvement in a bit more detail, you might like to read it.

Originally posted by kix
Amazing thread, long and WORTHY read!!!

Thanks, I'm glad someone took the time to read it all. It's appreciated.

If someone believes the magic bullet theory and the Warren commission report after this... either its insane or a fool.

Hmmm, I have to admit, I do think a great deal of the magic bullet, or the single bullet theory as It's also known is actually quite plausible. I've tried to look into it a great deal and I'm convinced that some of what we was told is just a downright lie but I'm also convinced there's a lot more truth into it than most would think there would be. But that's another thread for another day I guess.

reply to post by GodIsPissed

Seriously though,how the hell could one guy do all that?How did he know the parade route was going to change?

Personally, I suspect that the Cabell Brothers of being responsible for the handing down of the Motorcade route to the would be assassins. Earle Cabell was after all in charge of the motorcade route as well as JFK's trip as far as I believe.

And here's an interesting statement from James E. Files - the self confessed Grassy Knoll shooter currently serving prison time for the murder of another police officer in 1991:

"Johnny Rosselli got in the car with me and we started back to Dallas. He opened the envelope up and there was identification in there for Secret Service people and we had a map in there of the exact motorcade route that would take it through Dealey Plaza. Johnny Rosselli said well they only made one change. That was when he informed me they was coming off of Main Street on to Elm or on to Houston there...they made the zig-zag, the little turn that they should have never made. But when they made that, it was the only change in it."

(Source)

And what about George Bush's role in all this?

He's still alive. This thread is dedicated to those who sadly are not.

Originally posted by daggyz
Here we go again....

Did the assassins that assassinated the witnesses get killed too or do they escape death as a bonus?

Personally I don't know. It's a good question though. The assassinations on the witnesses seemed to span over many years as well so who knows, It could have been done by the same team of individuals for all we know. Thus not having to get rid of too many people for knowing too much.

I wish I could star this a hundred more times. Fantastic work, thank you very much. I'm quite new to researching this case, and I read every single word you wrote, while saving a large number of links for future reading. The value of a thread like this can hardly be overstated. A thousand thanks and keep up the good fight. Hopefully I'll have some actual content to contribute to the discussion at some point, but for now this is invaluable in getting up to speed.

reply to post by DogsDogsDogs


Thanks for the kind words.

An impulse thought re the orthopedic surgeon who was murdered: For some reason- well because of the details of her murder, really, I believe it was personal toward her and possibly the research she was working on. The murdered had been maimed or was dying. Or maybe someone close to them. Maybe that will change after reading the links, but it was too brutal and appears frenzied; not a professional "hit".

Which one out of curiosity?

And I agree that not all of those mentioned in the OP will necessary have met there demise at the result of a conspiracy. Each and everyone of them mentioned were only mentioned in the first place as they have originally been placed into the category of being suspected to have been killed due to a conspiracy - something which doesn't mean that's what it is - this list of "mystery deaths" is also easily obtainable. Here's one such link to them all:

JFK: List of Mystery Deaths.

I just wished to go a bit more in-depth than this list allows with this thread as that's the only way of determining if a conspiracy really has taken place... or not. I also made sure to post this before I began discussing any of the "mystery witnesses" near the beginning of my OP also:

Also, please let me at this time clarify that I'm not saying that every single person mentioned below died as a result of "knowing too much" or due to any conspiracy, some obviously have died from nothing but natural causes or accidents etc. BUT...., they have all been classed as fitting into the category of "mysterious deaths" as they all have died at suspicious and or convenient times Or are connected in some way thus being added to the list I obtained. With this being said, let's being..

reply to post by sepermeru

I'm quite new to researching this case

Believe me, I still consider myself very much so a new researcher to this case also - as I mentioned earlier on in this thread in fact. I've only been looking into it for around 6 months or so now. Admittedly to the point of obsessiveness though.

But it really is a fascinating series of events which have seemingly occurred here, and ones which are just so blatant It's unreal. I mean, just looking into this case in-depth, It's difficult to not realize just what a huge conspiracy really has taken place here. It's also incredible that "they" did such a terrible job at covering it all up and at the same time, they made uncovering the truth damn near impossible. It's quite a feat.

Hopefully I'll have some actual content to contribute

I really look forward to hearing your future thoughts on this topic, whether it be on this particular thread or your very own.

Here's another thread I wrote up when I first started getting interested in this case as well btw. It differs to this thread as It's my own thoughts and analysis on the assassination off Kennedy as opposed to the assassination of the witnesses. You may enjoy it.

reply to post by Rising Against


Well RA, credit where credit is due, you have excelled beyond excellent without a doubt. Many stars (one for each post) but unfortunately only one flag but certainly warrants far more.



I haven't read all of it yet - so much information - so many people

I know you and I share the same opinion in that witnesses to the Kennedy assassination (and also conspirators) were indeed silenced, and the information which you have very eloquently presented here only serves to strengthen my opinion.

It is quite obvious you have dedicated a substantial amount of time researching and compiling this thread RA - ATS ought to have a 'commendation' button we can award for threads of this outstanding quality

reply to post by BuzzCory


BuzzCory, I really have had some great replies from people thus far, but admittedly, you're one was one of my favorites. It's well thought out and nice, plausible ideas are presented. So, thank you for it.

Thanks for providing that first link as well btw, I had a look through it and I realized that no, It's not mentioned in my OP anywhere.

I don't think anyone can fail to get a chill of dread from seriously considering that this could have actually happened to people who thought they were doing the right thing. I think that for me, these deaths, if they are truly the murders they appear to be, are as much of an outrage as the public execution of John Kennedy.

I certainly agree with that. And that's why out of all the JFK threads I've done thus far, the first was on the assassination, and then the next 3 have been on the witnesses whom have passed away afterwards. You see, I strongly believe that the bigger conspiracy that occurred and then resulted from the events in 1963 were in fact the latter of the two - the assassination of the witnesses, given the choice.

It seems as though that the Kennedy assassination has taken center stage, something I can understand though as It was the president of the united states after all, not that these witnesses weren't important or anything like that of course but I can understand why they have been forgotten over the years. I don't agree with the reasons but I understand them.

And as I said in another previous post also, I don't believe that all of those mentioned in my OP (I believe there is over 100 of them if my memory serves me correct), have died directly from the result of a cover-up and ensuing conspiracy - it may be slightly far fetched to believe that in fact. I am however subscribing to the theory that by far most of them have been though. And that's a conclusion I like to think I've come to via my own research on the topic as opposed to the research of others telling me what I should think.

So, again, not all but certainly most are IMO mentioned for a very good reason. Then again, just because I believe they have been, that doesn't make it so I guess.

Btw, I'm not sure if you have, but I get the feeling you may enjoy looking into the work of Dorothy Kilgallen - one of those mentioned in my OP. Not sure why, but I just get the feeling that her death and the actions taken before she had died would really interest you. Just a hunch though.

Here's my theory on how she died for anyone interested also.

I believe JFK was killed in the way he was, not only to get him out of the way, but to set an example for those who would follow him into office, of what fate awaits those who would buck the system.The message? "You can be out there in front of the world, & we'll get you anyway; make enough trouble, and you can't escape what will happen to you". Looking at the way things have been since then gives one the feeling that the point was well taken, doesn't it?

That is an interesting point. And let's not forget whom was in office at the same time as Kennedy... Edgar J. Hoover himself. The man responsible for bribing a total of 8 presidents in his time in office I believe. As well as one of the men responsible for allegedly bribing Earl Warren into conducting the warren commission too.

A volatile human for sure.

Now, whether all presidents from then on to now have been bribed and or influenced to a more preferable position is another matter though, and to be completely honest, I'm not sure I fully believe it to be completely honest. That being so, I really would love to hear more of your thoughts on this hypothesis. I would definitely say It's a plausible idea after all.

reply to post by spacevisitor


Hey Space, always nice to see you posting mate.

Admittedly though, all I feel I should post in reply is what you yourself quoted in your post. And trust me, you couldn't find more truth in a statement than in this....

Gentlemen, whenever you have a group of individuals... ... who are beyond any investigation... ... who can manipulate the press, judges, members of our Congress... ... youll have within our government

THOSE WHO ARE ABOVE THE LAW

Thanks for the kind words also.

reply to post by uk today

I know RA very well, we chat quite often, sometimes we can spend hours on the phone, and I can say with all honesty, that RA is so committed and dedicated to uncovering the truth and exposing the lies.
He devotes hours, days and weeks to extensive research, and every thread that he presents is meticulous in both presentation and factual content.

He has patience and determination that I could only dream of having, and he is such a HUGE credit to this site, and for his age, he is light years ahead of his time !!!

You forgot to tell them about the times where you tell me to shut up for talking about the JFK case too much.

Nah, in seriousness, thanks sooo much for this post. It really did make my day today and It's really appreciated.

xx

If there's any UK members interested in this case also - check the history channel right now. There's some great documentaries on tonight.

reply to post by doobydoll


Thanks for your post and kind words Dooby. It's much appreciated.

I hope you get a chance to finish reading. I've tried to move some of the more fascinating stories to the front but those towards the end tell compelling stories too.

reply to post by Rising Against


Great thread! S&F!

I've never been one for the whole conspiracy field, but this just sends chills down my spine. If they (whoever they are) are this organized, than anything can be pulled off.

This is slightly off-topic, but do you think such a stunt like this, the whole assassination, could be pulled off today (assuming it's a conspiracy)? I mean, tweets would be up within seconds and YouTube videos would be up within minutes.

reply to post by Rising Against


Mary Sherman (who was doing research into preventing soft tissue cancers ostensibly caused by contaminated polio vaccine) and that should have been murdereR, not "murdered".
I'm still reading. I've had a passing interest in JFK's murder, but this is too intriguing to "put down".
It really makes me see the workings of the US government in a whole new light (Eegad, have we *ever* had one not made up of criminals and thugs?)
Really amazing work...doesn't do it justice.

amazing! you were so thorough, and you put so much time and work into this, well worth the time to read. I remember in grade school when it happend, and watched with my family when oswald was shot on the tv. this would make a good book, like the others have said!