Creation. Why?

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by smithjustinb
If you're saying that the Universe hasn't always been and won't always be which I'm sure you can prove, then it is reasonable speculation to say that perhaps there were other universes before this one and will be more after.

Cosmological observations don't "prove" the Big Bang, but they come close enough that it would be unwise to postulate something else (apart from divine creation "in place", which would also account for the same existence of evidence,) and entropy (Second Law of Thermodynamics) proves that the Universe won't be around forever, so I'm not sure why you're arguing those points.

Sure, you can speculate that there was a Universe before this one, or two, or a million, but there cannot be an infinite number of them previously (though there can, theoretically, be an infinite number AFTER this one.) The trouble of applying the concept of an eternal being (God) to the Universe is that the being has the benefit of being "outside" of the creation, so saying that he is eternal, but the Universe is not, is not a contradiction. But to say that the Universe is eternal, when observations show that it is not, becomes a problem that our current understanding of physics cannot resolve.

Again, you're wrapping yourself up in the "how" of these issues, when it's far more interesting to wonder "why". We understand entropy pretty well, and it's a big old bummer about it meaning the end of all existence at some point, but why does this have to be? No matter how good evolution and natural selection makes something, no matter how close to perfection it can come, the Second Law of Thermodynamics says that, in this reality, it is doomed to failure.

Why?

Sure. I believe this universe began and will end, and I am not arguing against these facts. I'm sorry for any apparent contradictions on my part or misconceptions on your part. And as you said, God is eternal, so even after this physical universe is dead and gone, that infinite living light of awareness will still exist. This is why there are infinite universes. I don't see how Thermodynamics speculates anything beyond this universe and therefore can neither prove or disprove previous or future universes.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
I don't see how Thermodynamics speculates anything beyond this universe and therefore can neither prove or disprove previous or future universes.

Because the Law is inherent to the entirety of the Universe -- it pervades reality, so anything which can violate it must be outside of the Universe. In other words, if, to create reality, we need something inviolate of the Laws of Thermodynamics, it necessitates something which is not a part of this reality. God is convenient, because he kind of fits the mould (never mind the fact that the "primitives" who penned the Bible had no notion of physics,) but if you want to kick God out of the picture, you need to resolve that piece that violates the known laws of reality.

Hawking's recent claim that creation "had no need of God" was a stab at answering that, but I, personally, didn't buy it, and not many others did, either.

You need to consult the source information. The Bible has a source document. If you examine the life of Enoch, Joseph and Moses, you see where the source comes from. Egypt is the repository of knowledge left by Enoch before the flood. He was Hermes (Thoth), Greek 'Messenger to the Gods." Joseph comes as the first interpreter after the flood and is the 2nd great Hermes. Moses continues and then takes the knowledge with him to Israel as Hermes 3. Some say that Moses was taught by Hermes. Either way, we see that God moved His enlightenment of man through these people.

We have a fragment called the Corpus Hermeticum as it moved through the Greek culture. Hermes says the Word is defined as the Son of God, just as in the Bible. This is in the first book called the Poimandres. The word is the creative force and the light is God the Father. If you combine these two you get particle and wave (essentially). The difference is, God is much more than light duality. He is enlightenment and Christ moves the message in the image of creation. All particles have an associated wave. Consciousness in three parts: Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is Nous, or mind of God. This is what you gain through Gnosis. But, only with faith in God. Sorry atheists. You are not able until you soften your hearts.

The best book on this is called The Way of Hermes. It's the best English translation of the Corpus Hermeticum we have to date. The Corpus Hermeticum fills in all the blanks as to what God is, where we come from and how it all fits together with the biblical salvation story. This is what Freemasonry has been hiding all these years. Hebrews call the study based on Hermetic philosophy the Kabbalah. Jewish mysticism is based on what was gained from Egypt and was the law of God which was sent form mouth to ear (unwritten). And yes, it confirms that you must live a righteous life with faith, hope and love. The message is the same. Salvation comes from the Word.

I may be wrong here and there, but that is my reading of it from the studies I have done. There is no mistaking the similarities between the Bible and Hermetic philosophy. There is also a clear link between the early Greek philosophers and Hermes. It's all the same information from differing viewpoints. God works in all nations with the same message. Check the Discourses of Rumi the Sufi. Check Confucius. Check Buddha (Dhammapada). They all draw from the source information God leaves us on our first days of school. The implications are the only difference. Confucius sought what was best for the people. Buddha sought enlightenment. Rumi seems to be enlightened and one with God. Christ was God's true Word and the true enlightenment of the world. He offers Atonement. AT-One-Ment

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by smithjustinb
What exactly was the "word"?
What is your interpretation of "the word"?

Not mine, exactly (though I don't think I'd disagree with it,) but ironically enough, I ran across St. Augustine of Hippo's description today. God is, for the most part, incomprehensible to us. We don't understand him because, honestly, we just can't -- he's beyond our ability to comprehend. The Word, who existed before Christ came into the world, became incarnate in Jesus, and continues to exist with the Father, is the comprehensible part of God. It is the aspect of God that we can sense, and we can understand and interact with.

In the latter part of the fifteen volume book On The Trinity, Augustine speculated that instances in the Old Testament where God was reported to be interacting with the Jews (like the burning bush,) were occasions where The Word was doing the heavy lifting, but he ultimately determined that scripture didn't really give enough information to come to a defensible conclusion.

reply to post by smithjustinb


Yes, It's important to know The Root Meaning of Word's!

Jesus Christ = Logos (Greek Language Meaning)


The Jewish-Alexandrian theologian and philosopher Philo wrote extensively about the Logos in ways that are reminiscent of New Testament theology. For instance, his teaching that “the Logos of the living God is the bond of everything, holding all things together and binding all the parts, and prevents them from being dissolved and separated”[2] resembles Colossians 1:17.

Christians who profess belief in the Trinity often consider John 1:1 to be a central text in their belief that Jesus is God, in connection with the idea that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are equals. Though only in this verse is Jesus referred to as the Word of God, the theme transposed throughout the Gospel of John with variations.[3] Renowned theologian N.T. Wright characterizes "Word" (logos) as being incomprehensible in human language. He claims that through belief the Logos will transform people with its judgment and mercy.

n ancient Greek, logos meant 'word', but this meaning gradually extended to include other concepts such as speech, thought, reason, principle and logic. In the Platonic school of philosophy, Logos became the principle of unity, order and reason within the universe, and later came to refer to a kind of subsidiary god or divine force, an emanation of the deity.

The word Logos entered hellenistic Judaism under the influence of Philo, an Alexandrian Jew, as a paraclete or emanation of his God. In Quaestiones in Genesi II.62 Philo called the Logos a "second God" who is subordinate to the Supreme God. At the same time, Philo also sought to maintain monotheism by asserting that the Logos is not really distinct from God. Eventually, the concept of Logos entered Christianity, with Jesus as the Logos or Word.
The prologue to the Fourth Gospel, the Gospel of John, which begins with the unforgettable line "In the beginning was the Word," is instinctively recognized by many readers as one of the most beautiful passages in all the sacred texts of humanity. This writing describes the nature of the "Word" as a cosmic forming principle, its mission, and the manifestation of the Word in the figure of Jesus, the avatar of the Christian faith. Unfortunately, despite the beauty and profoundness of the Prologue, most modern readers have not been able to unlock its inner meaning, for they have never been given the necessary key.

Central to the Prologue is the concept of "Word," a very inadequate rendering of the original Greek term "Logos", one of the most important concepts of the Hellenistic world. Notice I did not say this was an important concept to the Jewish world but the Greek world. Let us not forget that Jesus is a Jew and not a Greek. In ancient Greek, Logos has many meanings, but none of them is truly to be understood as "Word," which is based on a translation of a translation. So the writer of the Gospel of John is really not saying the "Logos" is "the Word" but sadly this is the translation we have been given. Understand that often Greek and English are very poor languages for translation of concepts which find their origin in prior languages [such as Hebrew or Egyptian] which express such concepts in a much better way. When the Greek NewTestament was translated into Latin, "Logos" became "Verbum"; and when the English King James translation was made from the Latin version, "Verbum" became "Word," twice removed from the original text.

"Logos" designates the power of "reason," the pattern or order of things, the principle of relationship, and an organized articulation of something. In general, it has the following meanings:

1) Order or pattern
2) Ratio or proportion
3) Oratio, a discourse, articulation or account, even a "sermon"
4) Reason, both in the sense of rationality and in the sense of an articulation of the cause of something
5) Principle or cause (logoi ="principles," "ratios," "reasons")
6) A principle of mediation and harmony between extremes

"Logos" has the same meaning as both the Latin words "ratio" and "oratio". "Ratio" is the principle of Reason in its many senses, yet it is also ratio in a mathematical sense, as in continued geometrical proportion. "Oratio" is a discourse, an articulation, a setting forth of the "ratio" or nature of things. "Logos", as a principle, is the natural order of things, the principle of reason, relation, and harmony, which exists both within the natural fabric of the universe and within the human mind. Now understand the prior sentence is a very, very important concept in understanding the use of "logos" in the Gospel of John as we will see shortly. The key words in the above definition is "reason," "relationship," and "harmony" both in the natural world and within the human mind (the soul which contains the will and emotions of an individual). It is the faculty whereby one thing is related to another through "analogy", or the power of "proportional insight." (Analogia in Greek refers to continued geometrical proportion).Of no less importance in the Greek understanding of the "logos" is mystical and cosmological thought, including early Christian thought, the idea of The "Logos" in a cosmic sense encompassed all of these meanings and refers to the underlying Order of the Universe, the blueprint on which all creation is based.

When you cut and paste, make sure and link the source. This was good information though.

Originally posted by Faith2011
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

Yes, It's important to know The Root Meaning of Word's!

Jesus Christ = Logos (Greek Language Meaning)


The Jewish-Alexandrian theologian and philosopher Philo wrote extensively about the Logos in ways that are reminiscent of New Testament theology. For instance, his teaching that “the Logos of the living God is the bond of everything, holding all things together and binding all the parts, and prevents them from being dissolved and separated”[2] resembles Colossians 1:17.

Christians who profess belief in the Trinity often consider John 1:1 to be a central text in their belief that Jesus is God, in connection with the idea that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are equals. Though only in this verse is Jesus referred to as the Word of God, the theme transposed throughout the Gospel of John with variations.[3] Renowned theologian N.T. Wright characterizes "Word" (logos) as being incomprehensible in human language. He claims that through belief the Logos will transform people with its judgment and mercy.

n ancient Greek, logos meant 'word', but this meaning gradually extended to include other concepts such as speech, thought, reason, principle and logic. In the Platonic school of philosophy, Logos became the principle of unity, order and reason within the universe, and later came to refer to a kind of subsidiary god or divine force, an emanation of the deity.

The word Logos entered hellenistic Judaism under the influence of Philo, an Alexandrian Jew, as a paraclete or emanation of his God. In Quaestiones in Genesi II.62 Philo called the Logos a "second God" who is subordinate to the Supreme God. At the same time, Philo also sought to maintain monotheism by asserting that the Logos is not really distinct from God. Eventually, the concept of Logos entered Christianity, with Jesus as the Logos or Word.
The prologue to the Fourth Gospel, the Gospel of John, which begins with the unforgettable line "In the beginning was the Word," is instinctively recognized by many readers as one of the most beautiful passages in all the sacred texts of humanity. This writing describes the nature of the "Word" as a cosmic forming principle, its mission, and the manifestation of the Word in the figure of Jesus, the avatar of the Christian faith. Unfortunately, despite the beauty and profoundness of the Prologue, most modern readers have not been able to unlock its inner meaning, for they have never been given the necessary key.

Central to the Prologue is the concept of "Word," a very inadequate rendering of the original Greek term "Logos", one of the most important concepts of the Hellenistic world. Notice I did not say this was an important concept to the Jewish world but the Greek world. Let us not forget that Jesus is a Jew and not a Greek. In ancient Greek, Logos has many meanings, but none of them is truly to be understood as "Word," which is based on a translation of a translation. So the writer of the Gospel of John is really not saying the "Logos" is "the Word" but sadly this is the translation we have been given. Understand that often Greek and English are very poor languages for translation of concepts which find their origin in prior languages [such as Hebrew or Egyptian] which express such concepts in a much better way. When the Greek NewTestament was translated into Latin, "Logos" became "Verbum"; and when the English King James translation was made from the Latin version, "Verbum" became "Word," twice removed from the original text.

"Logos" designates the power of "reason," the pattern or order of things, the principle of relationship, and an organized articulation of something. In general, it has the following meanings:

1) Order or pattern
2) Ratio or proportion
3) Oratio, a discourse, articulation or account, even a "sermon"
4) Reason, both in the sense of rationality and in the sense of an articulation of the cause of something
5) Principle or cause (logoi ="principles," "ratios," "reasons")
6) A principle of mediation and harmony between extremes

"Logos" has the same meaning as both the Latin words "ratio" and "oratio". "Ratio" is the principle of Reason in its many senses, yet it is also ratio in a mathematical sense, as in continued geometrical proportion. "Oratio" is a discourse, an articulation, a setting forth of the "ratio" or nature of things. "Logos", as a principle, is the natural order of things, the principle of reason, relation, and harmony, which exists both within the natural fabric of the universe and within the human mind. Now understand the prior sentence is a very, very important concept in understanding the use of "logos" in the Gospel of John as we will see shortly. The key words in the above definition is "reason," "relationship," and "harmony" both in the natural world and within the human mind (the soul which contains the will and emotions of an individual). It is the faculty whereby one thing is related to another through "analogy", or the power of "proportional insight." (Analogia in Greek refers to continued geometrical proportion).Of no less importance in the Greek understanding of the "logos" is mystical and cosmological thought, including early Christian thought, the idea of The "Logos" in a cosmic sense encompassed all of these meanings and refers to the underlying Order of the Universe, the blueprint on which all creation is based.

edit on 1-4-2011 by Faith2011 because: shorten

Right. Nothing rises from entropy apart from consciousness and life. A live acorn grows. A dead acorn rots. God is the animator against entropy.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by smithjustinb
I don't see how Thermodynamics speculates anything beyond this universe and therefore can neither prove or disprove previous or future universes.

Because the Law is inherent to the entirety of the Universe -- it pervades reality, so anything which can violate it must be outside of the Universe. In other words, if, to create reality, we need something inviolate of the Laws of Thermodynamics, it necessitates something which is not a part of this reality. God is convenient, because he kind of fits the mould (never mind the fact that the "primitives" who penned the Bible had no notion of physics,) but if you want to kick God out of the picture, you need to resolve that piece that violates the known laws of reality.

Hawking's recent claim that creation "had no need of God" was a stab at answering that, but I, personally, didn't buy it, and not many others did, either.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

Right. Nothing rises from entropy apart from consciousness and life. A live acorn grows. A dead acorn rots. God is the animator against entropy.

That is one of the truest and most insightful things that I've read on ATS in a long time. Thanks for summarizing it so well!