Something hopefully we can all agree on...

Just to reiterate, this was isn't about your freedom.

But to answer your question about Bin Laden / Iraq and the relationship to the Western world.

During the Iran/Iraq war US gave a lot of support to Iraq, including access to US satellite imagery, access to chemical/biological weapons technologies, access to anthrax spores, etc. etc. They also gave some support to Iran of course, but then that's the US for you...

As far as Bin Laden goes, he was originally trained as a mujahadeen freedom fighter by the US, with the aim that he'd help to remove the USSR from Afghanistan. I believe there was a bit of a spat between OBL and the CIA at some point, which then helped to turn OBL into a virulent anti-American.

Both of these can be seen as problems which were built up during the cold war, and have now come back to bite.

Originally posted by TigeriS
If you don't support the war, why should you support the troops ? Isn't that a weak behavior ? Next time we'll do it again, make some war, everybody against it, but when it's started they'll support it anyway.. LOL.

I have to say this psychological warfare is going better than the battles it self.

No offence, but I don't support the war, I don't support the troops, and I don't support the government, in fact I don't support any leader right now.

TigeriS and Cold Anger, do you know what does it mean, when you are a soldier who have to fight, but don't have any support, especially from his own fellow citizens ????????????????????

These soldiers are just doing their jobs. They are respecting what their Commander in Chief asked them to do. Soldiers aren't different from you or me. I know that some of them are against that war too. It's impossible to have 100% of them beeing happy to be in Irak for fighting.

What do you think ? That they are all happy to risk their live ? That they are happy to be so far from home for an unknown period of time ? Far from their childrens, husbands, wives, parents, friends..... ????????? Without any insurances that they'll go back at home ??????

Also, do you think that they had the choice/right to say " Yeah, I go " or " No, I don't go there " ???????

Do you think that they are responsible for what is going on ????????

You probably never weared a military uniform, and you probably never risked your live for your ideas. But that's not an excuse !!!!!

So try to show them a minimum of respect and support !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Fallschirmjager
After reading quite a few posts concerning if this war is justified or not, I think we can all agree on something.

SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!!!

Even if you don't think this war is right, remember that there are soldiers risking their lives so that YOU aren't there to die as well. They're risking their lives to protect you and your degrading freedoms. If not for the brave soldiers who risk their lives in the wars of the past and present, chances are, you probably wouldn't be reading this post right now. History has shown throughout it's numerous conflicts that FREEDOM ISN'T FREE!!! Remember that someone paid a very high price so that you can express yourself in a open or limited way. In fact, they paid the ultimate price, their lives and their freedoms.

This freedom crap is overestimated.. There wont be more freedom in USA after Iraq is looking like a parkinglot..

And this war dosn�t have anything with freedom to do.. Its just ABC weapons and oil..

i have family over there. a cousin on the USS Constalation and a cousin in Qatar and no one knows where my aunt is yet she's in the army and she wasn't called up right away so we still waitin to hear.

i'm anti-war, no doubt. and it's hard to really say i support the troops. cause in a way it's against what i believe in but with my fam over there...i just hope and pray that everyone makes it back even though some won't. this is why i'm anti-war casue murder should never be legal. no one should ever be put in the position of having to die. ur are a hipocrit to me to convict Saddam for murder when Bush is sending folk to be murder...it's all the same to me. and that's an opinion i know but it's real.

I don't support the war nor do I support the soldiers in killing. I don't support war, PERIOD.

I dont support war so I dont support both parties of a war.

I dont wish evil upon soldiers either.

Now, I'm VERY thankful of the soldiers who fought for a cause that actually MEANT something. And that cause was the American Revolution.

This war has no cause or moral value and that is why I won't support the war or the soldiers, on either side.

Remember that supporting our troops is different then supporting their cause to fight in the first place. There are some soldiers that against this war too, but they're still fighting! I'm against this war as well, but I'm not against action to be taken. I'm sure that there are better alternatives to war, but something has to happen.

Treasure your freedoms and what you have before they're taken away from you.

A California mother whose son is right now in Kuwait poised to knock Saddam's block off, wrote her son asking how he would feel if she joined other relatives of service members in an anti-war demonstration in Hollywood last month. After reading her son's response, she elected not to participate.



Dear Mom: It's really your decision to march if you want to or not. You are the one who has to decide if what we are doing out here is right or not. My opinion is not yours. I do, however, have things I would like for you and Grandma and everyone else at home to know. I am a United States soldier. I was sworn to defend my country against all enemies, foreign and domestic. People may not agree with the things we are ordered to do. I would like to address those people by telling them that terrorism is not only a threat to us as Americans, but to many other innocent people in the world. What type of country would we be if we didn't defend the rights and freedoms of others, not because they're Americans, but how about just because they're human? We live in a country where people feel secure with their daily lives. They do business like usual and don't worry about the thought of terrorism actually happening to them. The people of 9-11 thought the same thing. We now know that it can happen to anyone at any time. Yet as Americans we're afraid of losing our soldiers to defend our security. I can only speak for myself when I say that my life is an easy expense to ensure that my family and friends can live in peace. I strongly believe in what we are doing and wish you were here to see for yourselves the honor and privilege that American soldiers aboard this ship are feeling, knowing that we are going to be a part of something so strong and so meaningful to the safety of our loved ones. Then you would know what this potential war is about. We will stand tall in front of terrorism and defeat it. We as soldiers are not afraid of what may happen. We are only afraid of Americans not being able to understand why we are here. I ask for your courage as Americans to be strong for us; I ask for_ your understanding in what we believe is right. I ask for your support in what we are sworn to do: defend our country and the life of all._ We will succeed in our task and will end the threat of terrorism in our back yard. We will also end the threat of terrorism in our neighbors'. We have to remind ourselves of what this country stands for: life, liberty and justice for all. In order to maintain those rights we have to stop_ the threat of terrorism._ I am proud to be here. I will be coming home, but not until I know that it's going to be safe for all Americans and for everyone I love. My family is first. My country is where they live. I will defend it_

Lonnie J. Lewis Navy corpsman

Thanks for sharing that AF1, that is a true US soldier. It makes me feel good to know that people like this are defending our freedom.

I'm sorry but although I agree whole heartedly with contents of that letter, It doesn't sound like a letter I would write to my mother if she was going to march in a protest or not! It looks sorta pre-fabricated, as if it was written by the president's speech writers.

Originally posted by ProudAmerican
Thanks for sharing that AF1, that is a true US soldier. It makes me feel good to know that people like this are defending our freedom.

TO DO NOT FORGET:

Yes we are all horrified from the 9/11 in NY.
Please keep ONE minute of silence, in tribute for the 4000 american victims dead in this tradegy, made by
suposed terrorist that we don�t know who they are.

But if you are keeping silence for innocent victims, keep another 13 minutes in tribute to the 130 000 victims of
the bombing against the civil population of Irak, ordered by bush father in the gulf war.

Now keep another 20 minutes for the 200.000 deads because of the provided money and weapons by saddam Hussein, by
the same americans that now are claiming his death.

Another 15 minutes for more than 150.000 Russians and afghans dead in the taliban�s regime, with also weapons, and
ordered by USA, who were trained (bind laden as well) in the CIA , in the cold war time.

10 Minutes more for more than 100.000 deads directly or indirectly in the hiroshima nagasaki massacre, also
an accion from the Great american eagle.

If you have done this, you have been 1 hour in silence, 1 minute for all the americans and 59 because of all their victims.

Add 1 hour more for the deaths of vietna, which is not nice to ment for the americans....

But to all this, add 1 daily hour, for all the innocent victims, civils dead, and that they are still suffering and dying
every day in Palestina in jews hands, with the agreement of america in this matter....

And for Brasil?
And for Panama?
And for Colombia?
And for guatemala?
And for canboya?
And for....?
And for africa?
And for all these countries in Asia?

I wish someone could remember the bombing of the US to baghdad in the gulf war, in which 18.000 innocent civil persons were
killed, and not like 5000 of the 9/11, or the massacre of Shabra & Chatila in Palestina,or in Jenin.
Someone saw it on the CNN??? or in any other channel of the world??? Did someone claim any "infinite justice"????
even worst did someone claim "revenge" for the massacre of these innocent people??

I wish the americans like you will understand one day the tradegies and atrocities that they do are the same or even
more animal than the others. Or are you gonna tell me that the deads from other countries are less valuable than
yours???
I am sure that in 9/11, all ppl were watching the special reports from the world trade center tragedy, crying and
thinking about all this innocent ppl dead, making tributes to the family of the victims.
But you have also to horrify yourself with the 9/12 9/13 9/14 9/15..... in palestina, africa, asia, south america,
all the entire world is suffering, crying in misery, and you are telling me that americans are fighting for freedoom??
......

I really don�t see where is the logica on the BS of being "patriotist brainwashed" while the rest of the world is like this........

You make a great point about the value of life here and there. You expressed how I feel when it comes to acceptance and ignorance to foreign affairs. I know suffering is vast and is usually traced with the trails of our brethren. I understand this and so do people posting on this topic before me. You know who understands this even more then us???

The Soilder. Don't knock him/her. They are the ones who have given up freedoms to protect freedom. Freedom for who??? The people of their country. The soilder keeps you free. The soilder is a pawn. He has to do what he has to do, or else. Is that his fault?? No!!!

Get off this crusade. It is gross and foolish. There is no reason not to support your standing army, not unless it is at your door fighting with you. The conflicts our government has inflicted and provoked are endless, but that doesn't mean that the population of brave and patriotic people have to pay for it. If you want to stop the problem, that being the soilders' actions, than stop the ones enforing the soilder to commit the acts those enforcers planned.

Now as for the government, well you must find ways to curb it's intentions, if those intentions are the things you are speaking out against. If you can't convince them, which I am sure you won't, then welcome to the club. It a tough world. NO ONE WANTS TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS, NO ONE!!!!!

Because of that, our governments and others get away with murder. Then when the heat from the murder crimes gets hot enough then the wars start coming. That is the system. If it were a perfect world then the leaders would take thier differences in the ring and not on the homeland. I know this world is waring like mad, but what can we do about it, other than stop supporting it??? We can't fight every war. The public wouldn't dig it. So we can call that hopeful war, the WAR ON TERRORISM. You See???

Let's just hope the terror supporting stops. It hasn't yet, but I feel that the corrupt ones will feel our wrath in time. The war for succesion is occuring and the New World Order is forming, what is your role??? Do you really want to start war with your own people??? Are you not just working the plan of the corruptors into place with you non-compliance??? For don't they need rebels, to take over or to get a reason to take away freedoms??? Don't they need a reason to rule??? Well if you don't think that public opinion has anything to do with the war machine then you are strongly mistaken. For no country can handle war unless they are ready for it. The soilder makes them ready. To deny that right is wrong. You See?????

[Edited on 25-3-2003 by Abraham Virtue]

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix

Originally posted by TigeriS
If you don't support the war, why should you support the troops ? Isn't that a weak behavior ? Next time we'll do it again, make some war, everybody against it, but when it's started they'll support it anyway.. LOL.

I have to say this psychological warfare is going better than the battles it self.

No offence, but I don't support the war, I don't support the troops, and I don't support the government, in fact I don't support any leader right now.

TigeriS and Cold Anger, do you know what does it mean, when you are a soldier who have to fight, but don't have any support, especially from his own fellow citizens ????????????????????

These soldiers are just doing their jobs. They are respecting what their Commander in Chief asked them to do. Soldiers aren't different from you or me. I know that some of them are against that war too. It's impossible to have 100% of them beeing happy to be in Irak for fighting.

What do you think ? That they are all happy to risk their live ? That they are happy to be so far from home for an unknown period of time ? Far from their childrens, husbands, wives, parents, friends..... ????????? Without any insurances that they'll go back at home ??????

Also, do you think that they had the choice/right to say " Yeah, I go " or " No, I don't go there " ???????

Do you think that they are responsible for what is going on ????????

You probably never weared a military uniform, and you probably never risked your live for your ideas. But that's not an excuse !!!!!

So try to show them a minimum of respect and support !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So tell me that when u sign up in the army you don�t know that can happen??????
Is a risk they know when they start with all these trainings!!! What do u think are they gonna get, about
tanks, flights, guns, bio-weapons, terrorist, they just
get teached about this stuff, they know where are they going with it, they don�t train with MA41 or M16 for fun,
they know that someday can be used, and if they
give their lives for be a puppet controlled by a superior,
even when they are not agree with it is just pathetic,
even u said that some of them are going but are not agree, can you tell what is this then???

Can i ask u a stupid question?
What do u think can happen if no one has army to fight with, weapons or bombs, flights, etc etc etc.
There will be no wars, there is nothing to fight with, so
u must resolve the problems talking and not bombing or shooting....
Being a soldiers it shows that u have nothing better to do in your live that being controlled for purporses that u even don�t agree with!!!!
All for commit massacres as i stayed above.and then
have the face to call that justice.

and look, risk my life with ideas, it doesn�t mean to follow leader that i don�t agree with or don�t understand, a soldiers just gets orders, nothing more nothing less.
And YES they are responsable for the dead of innocents in those hundreds of stupid wars with stupid concepts.
They are not direct responsable for this world, but they
are helping to keep this sh*t going on for years.

They keep this tiranny and "unjustice for all" just serving the mad elitist without even ask!!!!!!

Being a soldiers it shows that u have nothing better to do in your live that being controlled for purporses that u even don�t agree with!!!!

The Oath they take says that they will uphold the laws of the constitution, and follow all orders from their commanders.

Some join the military for other reasons than to be controlled. Did you ever think of fitness, discipline, or a source of income? I'd say you should join the military, you'd understand it better. It's more of a way to learn and prosper.

It's not their fault. They are following orders. In the military, the commander takes full responsibility for all troops.