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To All Jews Who Are Under The Mistaken Belief That God Gave Them The Land Of Israel To The Exclusion

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posted on Mar, 30 2011 @ 11:54 PM
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The thread posters need to think outside the Genesis box. Yes, God made promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but later He made it clear that possession of the land was conditional on the children of Israel keeping up their end and obeying the rules and regulations. They did not, and after warnings and warnings, God kicked Israel "out of the house" and sent them packing into exile. Later, when Judah did not turn from its own wickedness, even after seeing what had happened to their brethren, God sent them packing too. Thus, all twelve tribes lost the right to possess the land. Later, when a few Jews came back to Palestine (yes I dare use that term) for a specific reason, and screwed up again, they too were kicked out just as their forefathers had been.

To decide whether the Jews have a claim to Palestine, you must read the entire Old Testament which bears on the subject. The initial promise does NOT settle the matter. I have studied this in depth, and I know what I am talking about. All too many "Christian" spokespersons are funded by Zionist interests, and do not cover the entire subject. Laz tells you the truth.



posted on Mar, 31 2011 @ 12:44 AM
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You really arent very educated in the bible.

G-d renews the covenant with both isaac and Jacob, and later with moses and the Israelites.

If youre going to attack this thesis of the Rabbis, you might want to do it on non-theological grounds. They will KILL you in that department Mr Businessman who travels to Israel often, and creates an anti-Jewish thread every week or so...

Just looked up the threads you have made. You do seem to be fixated over israel

Threads made:

  • To All Jews Who Are Under The Mistaken Belief That God Gave Them The Land Of Israel To The Exclusion
  • Israel Kidnaps Palestinian Engineer from the Ukraine??????
  • Attention Israeli apologists: This is why the world condemns Israel!
  • Not Guilty. The Israeli Captain who Emptied his Rifle into a Palestinian Schoolgirl
  • Anyone Still Think Israel Wants Peace?
  • Dozens of top Israeli rabbis sign ruling to forbid rental of homes to Arabs
  • Argentina Recognizes Palestine Within its 1967 Border
  • US, Israel Slam Brazil's Recognition of PA as New Country
  • 'Israeli troops open fire on Lebanon'

    And this is just the last year. It would be too tiring to see what else you have wrote. 9 in a year is actually quite alot. All anti-Israel. But, also, youre a businessman. Youre not a guy who sits infront of a computer all day. You have made 5 anti-Israel posts in the last 25 days!. Thats basically every 5 days you make a new thread. Sometimes for trivial things.

    You have to be blind and stupid to not see a trend in your postings. You do not like Jews, period. You make an exhaustive effort to megaphone every Israeli slip up you can find, to essentially make it bigger than it is. This is a common propaganda tactic. Orwellian in nature. Can find it in machiavelli aswell. The uneducated conspiracy addicts here though would prefer to read a william cooper book than give themselves a proper education in philosophy (political especially) and history, so they probably wont notice.

    And given your weird new agey looking avatar and name im guessing your anti-Judaism is premised on spiritual/gnostic grounds.
    edit on 31-3-2011 by dontreally because: (no reason given)



  • posted on Mar, 31 2011 @ 01:00 AM
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    Originally posted by sezsue
    reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
     


    Yes, the OP is correct.


    No, he is not. Refer to my posting on page 3.


    The Genesis verse that everyone uses to make it seem like we have to support Israel, is only specifically referring to ABRAHAM. I looked this up in a comparative Bible, and the commentary states that the wording used is the singular and personal, it is not referring to the nation of Israel in any way.


    Genesis 15:18 - On that day Yahweh made a covenant with Abraham, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates."

    ^^That is talking about Abraham, or his descendants?



    Genesis 34:1-15 - The Lord said to Moses, "Command the Israelites and say to them: 'When you enter Canaan, the land that will be allotted to you as an inheritance will have these boundaries:

    Your southern side will include some of the Desert of Zin along the border of Edom. On the east, your southern boundary will start from the end of the Salt Sea, cross south of Scorpion Pass, continue on to Zin and go south of Kedesh Barnea. Then it will go to Hazar Addar and over to Azmon, where it will turn join the Wadi of Egypt and end at the sea.

    Your western boundary will be the coast of the Great Sea. This will be your boundary on the west.

    For your northern boundary, run a line from the Great Sea to Mount Hor and from Mount Hor to Lebo Hamath. Then the boundary will go to Zedad, continue to Ziphron and end at Hazar Enan. This will be your boundary to the north.

    For your eastern boundary, run a line from Hazar Enan to Shepham. The boundary will go down from Shepham to Riblah on the east side of Ain and continue along the slopes east of the Sea of Kinnereth. Then the boundary will go down along the Jordan and end at the Salt Sea."

    "This will be your land, with its boundaries on every side."



    ^^Prescribed land for Israel (son of Isaac), a descendant of Abraham. If that is Isaac's allotment, then logic obviously tells us Abraham's other son, Ishmael, will get the rest.

    Deuteronomy 34:1-4 - Then Moses climbed Mount Nebo from the plains of Moab to the top of Pisgah, across from Jericho. There the Lord showed him the whole land - from Gilead to Dan, all of Naphtali, the territory of Ephraim and Manasseh, all the land of Judah as far as the western sea, the Negev and whole region from the Valley of Jericho, the City of Palms, as far as Zoar. Then the Lord said to him, "This is the land I promised an oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob when I said, 'I will give it to your descendants.'

    ^^Again . . . Abraham only, or his descendants?




    The problem is the fact that many Christians haven't read this verse for themselves and if they have they haven't really thought about what it means.


    It seems quite clear what it means, and there is more in the Tanakh to back it up. Furthermore, the Quran backs it up.


    Their pastor tells them this means God wants them to support Israel, and like sheep they do what Jesus would never support. Jesus did not advocate killing your enemies, far from it.


    Wrong. That is the problem with mainstream Christianity today. They see Jesus as a peacenik who did away with the Tanakh.

    Matthew 5:17 - "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

    Matthew 10:34-36 - Jesus said “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law---a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household’”

    Never mind the scripture of God blessing those who support Israel and cursing those who oppose Israel.


    By supporting Israel, a nation that persecutes their neighbors, and for the most part, doesn't even believe in him, we are doing exactly what we are told not to do, following darkness instead of light.


    Both sides are at fault. If both sides would follow their own scriptures, there would be peace.




    And yes, lets read up on Moses, also. Read the part where it says that if the covenant is broken, they will be kicked out of the land, by God. There are actually many places in the Bible where this is confirmed.


    But you fail to realiz that God's covenants are eternal. Man may screw up, but God always allows a way back in.


    Go here to see what the scriptures say about who is Biblicaly allowed to occupy the land.


    The Old Testament emphasizes in dozens of the clearest passages that never will God allow an unjust rebellious nation of Jews to occupy His Holy Land [see footnote].

    He wouldn't let even the spiritual colossus Moses in because of one infraction. He wouldn't let the ten doubting spies and an entire generation of Hebrews in because of unbelief.

    Instead, God made it clear that only a believing remnant, trusting God and exemplifying righteousness, justice, and mercy (including to the "strangers in the land"), would have sanction to enter and occupy. This happened only two times in Old Testament history: under Joshua and, later, Ezra and Nehemiah, bringing back an obedient remnant from Babylonian captivity.

    On the other hand, God repeatedly warns that if the Jews do occupy Palestine and yet turn from obedience He will scatter them to the nations. They cannot return until they embody the same righteousness as they did under Joshua and Ezra.



    Scripture is also emphatic that at the second coming of Christ a beleaguered Jewish remnant, survivors of the collapse of the present counterfeit, anti-Christ state of Israel, will trust in their rejected Messiah, Jesus. At that time, and only after such repentance, will Christ authorize their return to occupy the land under Christ's benevolent rulership for 1,000 years.

    Who then owns the land and has rights of occupation today? Righteous Jews who honor Israel's true Messiah, Jesus, will always own the land of Israel and have rights of occupation. But, until national Jewish obedience occurs again, God made two things very clear after exile of the Jews to Babylon in the sixth century B.C.

    * Jews must dwell among the nations, seeking the peace and prosperity of their neighbors (Jer. 29:4).
    * Surrounding Gentiles would have the right to temporarily dwell in and cultivate the land. Since they were not recipients of such transcendent truth and light as Israel, God will not hold them to the same high moral standard. But, if they became overtly wicked, He would also expel them.



    Footnote:
    * Scriptures forbidding Jewish occupation of the Holy Land in unbelief include: Lev. 18:28, 26:27-46; Num. 14:23; Deut. 4:26-27, 6:18, 7:12, 29:28; 28:21, 25, 37, 41, 56-64, Deut. 30; Ezek. 13:9; Jer. 7:15, 29:13-14



    Ahh . . . but you are missing something.

    Ezekiel 36:24-28 - For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.


    ^^In the last days, God will gather Israel back to the land BEFORE they are righteous. After they have returned, He will cleanse them. They will then live Godly lives.


    Also, read the part in the New Testament where Jesus says, since they didn't know the time of their visitation, that the Temple would be destroyed, the people disbursed, not to come back until they recognize him as their savior.


    Partially correct. He said that they would be dispersed until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled . . . aka, the Last Days.

    *Luke 21:24 - ". . . and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Jesus said He would not return until they recognize Him, which happens with the cleansing, after the return of Israel to the land."

    Jesus said that He would return after Israel recognizes Him, which will happen in the cleansing, after Israel returns to the land.

    *Matthew 23:37 - "For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord."




    That said, God does sometimes use even wicked people to accomplish his goals.

    God used Cyrus to punish Israel, and had his prophet tell them the name of Cyrus many years before it actually happened.

    God has it all under control.


    edit on 30-3-2011 by sezsue because: (no reason given)


    I agree that God uses whomever He chooses.



    posted on Mar, 31 2011 @ 01:03 AM
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    reply to post by dontreally
     


    Don't forget the "I'm not anti-Israel, I am anti-Zionism" spiel.




    posted on Mar, 31 2011 @ 01:06 AM
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    reply to post by Lazarus Short
     


    Yes they do.

    It is evidenced in the Torah, Tanakh, New Covenant, and Quran.

    Easily provable, as I have done multiple times in this thread and others.



    posted on Mar, 31 2011 @ 01:08 AM
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    reply to post by imawlinn
     


    Not really. They would have all the DNA components for all the human race.

    Defects only come into play when the DNA components become too few to have very many differences.



    posted on Mar, 31 2011 @ 01:11 AM
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    Originally posted by Le Colonel
    i was raised in religious home, and now i am more spiritual than religious. How can GOD pick one set of people over another. A loving GOD would not do this. Only an Alien Overseer would pick and choose.

    Just my thought. I believe in GOD but not gods, or a god. GOD does not pick one human over another. I just dont think that GOD works that way. It doesnt feel right.

    Israel is a desert land. There is really not much there. To this day there is nothing of value there.
    edit on 30-3-2011 by Le Colonel because: (no reason given)


    you obviously don't have any knowledge of what you speak, because the largest natural gas reserve has been discovered in Israel it is worth 95 BILLION dollars
    .www.haaretz.com...



    posted on Mar, 31 2011 @ 01:28 AM
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    Originally posted by shroudnews77
    reply to post by JustSomeIdiot
     

    You say there is no God so where did you come from look at yourself in the mirror you had parents. They had parents it always goes back to 2 people

    No, eventually it goes back to two more primitive humans who were not quite full modern humans, and their history goes back to two creatures who were no quite that species, etc. as you move back down through human, then hominin, then hominid species and beyond. Along the way there was probably a little mixing here and there with close cousin sub-species to make things a little more interesting. Eventually you get back to asexually reproducing primitive life forms and eventually you get back to something so primitive that it came into being by abiogenesis from organic structures built up over many eons.

    See, no magic, invisible, beings with bad tempers and varying degrees of love for their creations required.

    The Bible is a story written long ago by people who knew far less than we know today and some of that is based on stories told for many, many generations by people who knew even less than them in their attempt to explain their world, their existence and their place within it. It has many political purposes mixed in as well. It has been interpreted and edited many times and has evolved to be the various versions we see today. Like all myths from all religions and cultures it is partially based on fact and partially based on some mix of fantasy, misunderstanding of nature and lies.



    posted on Mar, 31 2011 @ 01:29 AM
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    reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
     


    Ya Right.

    Apparently, Rabbis denying observant Jews from renting their apartments to Arabs is somehow, in his fantasy land, an expression of zionism. Well, to be fair, if were going to listen to UN declaration 3379, equating zionism with racism, than this particular act would be racist.

    Yet, of course Arabs do the same things. Jordan forbids Jews from even VACATIONING in Jordan. Saudi Arabia doesnt even allow Jewish diplomats or businessmen from entering the country, period.. Yet, this doesnt deserve a UN declaration. No. thats just good old fashioned Islamic bigotry against Jews.

    The worlds elite are quiet about Islamism, and afraid as hell to apply its own standard - ie; all are equal - against them, but somehow zionism is racism. Im a Zionist, im not Jewish, and yet I am racist!. Which race? Which race am i supporting? Ashekenazi Jews? Sephardic Jews? Ethiopian Jews? Bnei Barak (Jews from India)? Converts from other religions,who are asian, black etc? What racism? Judaism is a cosmopolitan religion.

    It is just amazingly amusing to see the double standard and hypocricy in this labeling the Jews or "zionists" (just another tag for Jews) as racists, yet ignoring the fact that by the same standard the UN uses against Jews (ignoring the distinction between religious Jews, which hold 'zionism' in a much more authentic way, as the promise to return the world to a state of spiritual/moral perfection, from non-religious, secular zionists who see zionism as an ethnic solution to a moral problem - anti-semitism. This zionism is untenable in the long run) should be used against muslims, and everyone else apart of a group, whether ideologically religious or political, that discriminates against other peoples on ethnic or religious grounds.

    As for that above case of Rabbis forbidding Jewish tenets from renting out to Arabs, thats a case of self interest. And where the hell does this liar OP get the chutzpah to say the Israeli government sends settlers into the westbank? Just last week government forces destroyed a major settlement of the religious pioneers. Injuring many. Go to Arutz sheva (the no government owned, independent Israeli News agency. The only non-illuminati puppet media in Israel) and see how often these offences occur. This for instance happened just a few days ago in the westbank.



    But, of course, how many people really care? nope. Most people here are intellectually special. Emotionally evolved. Images and sayings and popular opinion is the most convincing thing they can rely on. Forget facts, or truth, or G-d forbid, adjusting their opinion as they grow in knowledge. Nope. They hear something enough, they now know enough. They just have to continue to defend the subject they now contend to be true, because they have vested themselves in it. It has become apart of them. Thus, the ease of propaganda, and the ease in leading men the way machiavelli can so easily describe, and as political theory can be taught openly in universities...yet, the people. the masses, the ignorant many remain confused and docile and most imporantly, gullible.

    Its nothing else but the GOVERNMENT of Israel trying to PREVENT Israelis from settling the westbank - ie; Judea and Samaria. The Government is the ONLY party getting in the way, as opposed to facilitating Israeli settlement..If you watched that video you can see how even Israeli police try to make life unbearable for these heroic Jews living in the westbank.

    And as for the recent call for "construction" , it came after 5 Israelis were brutally murdered by a terrorist in the night. Netanyahu reasoned that each life was worth 100 units (apartments), of course built on land Israel already owns in the westbank (so no bulldozing houses)..So, 5 deaths = 500 units.

    This OP is a pure propagandist. Everything he says is either a plain lie, or a manipulated truth (which is an even bigger lie, since its built on some basic truth, but distorted to create the impression he wants to create)
    edit on 31-3-2011 by dontreally because: (no reason given)



    posted on Mar, 31 2011 @ 01:38 AM
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    reply to post by gdaub23
     


    I think the big difference between the Jews stealing the Palestinian land and the settlers stealing the Native American land is down the fact nowadays we "know better" than to do that.

    Back in the days of the settlers arriving in North America en mass and driving the natives from their land, there was no legal or solidifed concepts of human rights and equality. I'm not justifying the actions of the past - it's still deplorable.

    But compared to what the Jews were allowed to do (because it wasn't just the fault of the Jews, they were "allowed" to do this) to the Palestinians and take their land - this was in, dare I say, modern society. We knew better. We knew better than to forceably move a group of people out of their land and slap down a group of other people who we knew damned well would cause tension.

    I suppose I'm saying the difference between the two is undeveloped social understanding vs current day stupidity.



    posted on Mar, 31 2011 @ 02:00 AM
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    reply to post by noonebutme
     

    I largely agree with your position. I believe that actions like those which you allude to of the past (distant past) though unforgivable are the past and we should look back on those and learn from them but at some point we have to move on. But, at some point society (in the large - that of the world) has to take a stand and draw the line - no more of that can be allowed.

    I don't think it is feasible to undo any of what has happened - even that done only 60-odd years ago. But we should not attempt to justify it either. It was wrong, it is still wrong, but the world has to move on and start trying to focus on what is going on right now and try to prevent things like this and other forms of atrocities from occurring.



    posted on Mar, 31 2011 @ 02:10 AM
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    reply to post by noonebutme
     





    "know better" than to do that.


    HUH?

    What a ridiculous argument..

    The Ethics of the bible, the "Thou shalt not kill", "though shalt not steal", "thou shalt not commit adultery" are basic, intutively recognizable moral truths.

    This was written 3500 years ago.

    Just 70 years ago the most civiilized society in the world, Germany, committed the gravest of human offences in history.. If modern "morality" based on humanism, as it was in NAZI germany makes us "know better", i would say based on that philosophy, we know nothing at all, and infact appreciate much less than those in the past did.

    And youre ridiculous for even assuming mans moral sense has "improved" because now we have cars, and better clothes and toilets. That hasnt made us anymore able to make right or wrong choices.

    This argument of yours is intrinsically false.

    Anti-semitism continues today, mainly under its new label "anti-zionism", and still there are many white supremacists and radical leftists and Islamists who just hates Jews because to them Jews embody evil, for whatever reason theyve projected on them.

    We shouldnt forget the holocaust because simpl put, anti-semitism, or if you dislike this anochronistic misnomer, anti-Jews, is not a local phenomenon. It happens again and again.

    So pay attention, learn history. Learn this truism of history: History repeats itself.



    posted on Mar, 31 2011 @ 02:14 AM
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    Someone prove to me that the Bible is truly God's words and hasn't been altered over time and then I may listen to this stuff..
    Otherwise it's pure fiction..



    posted on Mar, 31 2011 @ 02:33 AM
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    reply to post by bluemirage5
     


    Your video has nothing to do with the thread topic. You have added nothing to this discussion.



    posted on Mar, 31 2011 @ 02:37 AM
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    reply to post by sezsue
     


    thanks for the additional information, I appreciate the time you took to research this subject.



    posted on Mar, 31 2011 @ 02:47 AM
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    Originally posted by Blaine91555
    reply to post by gem_man
     




    "Why not just simply say, radicals are dangerous to everyone and leave it at that instead of engaging in in your face bigotry by attacking all Jews based on your own radicalism?"

    What bigotry? I defy you to find one post where I demonstrate bigotry towards the Jewish religion. Find ONE! This is not a discussion of religion or "Jewishness" but rather whether a Jew has a biblical right to the land. My argument is that Genesis 24 CLEARLY explains a covenant God makes with the decendants of Abraham. My point is simply Arabs are decendants of Abraham, some Jews are decendants of Abraham And all decendants have a biblical right to the land EQUALLY. IF you have an argument to dispute Genesis 24 please present it.



    posted on Mar, 31 2011 @ 03:01 AM
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    reply to post by dontreally
     


    My, My, My aren't you the busy bee. IF you would have taken the time to read my threads you will EASILY see they are critical of the Israeli government in general and the IDF in particular. Some exceptions like the Rabbi that thinks it is OK to kill non Jews. You obviously think it's OK for an IDF soldier to empty his rifle into a little girl and get off scott free. By your standards bringing this to the attention of our forum is "hate mongering" Incidently the soldier was not a Jew. He was a Druze. So am I anti Druze?. In any case this is not what this thread is about. Would you care to address the premise of this thread?



    posted on Mar, 31 2011 @ 04:45 AM
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    reply to post by gem_man
     


    All I can really say is this-

    1) There are ignorant people in Israel, as in any country in the world, and they can believe whatever they want..
    2) The government's motives are purely political, rather than ideological, the secular leaders of Israel don't care about the bible, they care about money, lands, and power.
    3) Saying Jews that were converted hundreds, or thousands or years ago, don't have a claim for Israel is like saying Muslim cultures converted in the last 1000 years have no claim for Mecca.. It's silly...

    Although I don't really think the "we were here first" argument is valid at all, it's just as silly.

    With respect,
    Eliad.



    posted on Mar, 31 2011 @ 05:12 AM
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    In the West, everyone gets sucked into the Bible and uses it to make claims and counterclaims about their beliefs..

    But, .....you can't escape the fact that the people who seek to gain the most from it, are in fact the people who wrote it
    themselves..

    Trouble is you write your own PR you start believing it.

    But people have started to find fault with the bible. YHWH comes from a Pagan Pantheon, there was no Exodus, Noah comes from a much earlier time and different culture altogether. Jericho did not have walls around it when its claimed the Ark and trumpets toddled round it 7 times and its walls fell down. Three nights ago a Professor from Exeter University showed us a Temple in Syria which is identical to the drawings from the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem. I thought there was only one Temple, eg the 1st and 2nd one in Jerusalem, clearly not..

    The biggest thing is that there is nothing out there to verify and cross reference much of this self-written book's claims.
    What is found in Egypt carved in stone does no concur with the bible.
    .
    You can shout, rant and rave the idea, that you are Chosen or promised a certain parcel of land, but when its only you saying so, and no other culture or record verifies this, why should anyone believe you. That's the trouble now instead of some people waving the usual anti la la rubbish, its time to face finding verification for the bible, your smoke screen is blowing away.



    posted on Mar, 31 2011 @ 06:29 AM
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    Reply to post by Lynda101
     


    --But, .....you can't escape the fact that the people who seek to gain the most from it, are in fact the people who wrote it themselves.--

    So how do Muslims gain from Sura 5:21 and 17:104?


     
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