To All Jews Who Are Under The Mistaken Belief That God Gave Them The Land Of Israel To The Exclusion

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Lynda101

 

I have not seen Lazarus posted a hate crime and you will find there are people who would feel justified in complaining that he is being victimised by you because he doesn't share your world view. Are we here to discuss and learn or to ridicule people and then silence them.

So saying the Saudi Royla family is Jewish, without an ounce of proof, for the sheer thrill in annoying another member isnt a HATE crime? You dont think such accusations have implications? ARE YOU AWAKE? DO YOU KNOW YOUR HISTORY? No people on planet earth has sufferred because of false accusations like the Jews have. For a woman who seems to care about history, you should know that the Jews dealt with calumnations of kidnapping children and using their blood to make passover Matzah - despite any proof, despite the biblical commandment against murder, despite Leviticus 19:26 prohibiting the eating of blood. Did the christians who murdered thousands of Jews care? Did the Muslims care when these accusations reared their head again in Damascus in 1840? Excuse me for wanting proof for his claims. If hes just going to spread for the sake of his hatred, than that very much deserves to be called a hate crime. He is spreading false, potentially damaging ideas about the Jewish people. He is claiming that the Saudis - the single greatest financers of Arab terrorism - are Jews. Nothing at all to back that up. Just his demented idea of humor.

Look at what the libel of the "protocols of the elders of zion" a tzarist fabrication based on a French book "dialogue in Hell", did to the Jewish communities of Russia.

Anti-Jewish Pogroms in the Russian Empire

Anti-Semitism is a SERIOUS thing, with real conseqences in seemingly every generation. The Holocaust was not the last episode. It has only taken 65 years for anti-semitism to become a big issue again in Europe. A different generation. the same lies. The same stories about Jews. About Zionists.

I simply want him to stop making up lies. Is that so much? Hes already admitted to "just liking to see me sputter". How is saying "# you" to someone, warrant a removal of a post, but this doesnt. It is the same tawdry behavior. But in this case, much more serious. He makes light of serious issues.

Free speech has limits. To allow people to disseminate anti-semitic ideas, and libels against Jews, without incurring any punishment to me is retardedly irrational. If you go on a plane and say "bomb" you can get in serious trouble. Why is this any different? We know there are consequences for speading lies against Jews. Likewise, planes have been hijacked by terrorists. This is why we have laws preventing any mention of bombs or anything that might make people uncomfortable.

Hello again,

Sorry in the middle of my reply to you I hit the reply key without realising it when I answered the phone so only touched on the tenuous link back to 851 for Saud history. I am not especially surprised going back through history and the sweeping though of religious conquest. Going back to your comment that 'the Sauds are huge financiers of Arab terrorism and - are Jews'. I see the implications you raise by the linking of Saud/Arab financed terrorism to the Jewish People and also the natural fury you express about the pain these acts of terrorism have caused when inflicted on the Jewish People.

I do know a little Jewish History, custom and religious practise which has caused so much suffering for the People in the past. I was very disturbed and angry when I saw how Rabbi Weiss from Naturei Karta was treated with such disdain by the Media, when he spoke out recently about the difference between Judaism and Zionism. I admire him and think him a very brave and courageous man.

I do think the current world situation is not conducive for another Holocaust occurring however, I don't think today its only the Jewish People who are at risk from or will be sacrificed for Zionist ambitions, I think its people from all over the world. Today people talk on the net and its a great leveller because wherever you live and whatever religion and politics exist you find we are all living with similar problems.

Unlike 1939, today most people are aware of the stranglehold of Zionism in their countries. However IMHO many will think when claims of Anti-Semitism are raised that this is merely a ploy designed to protect Zionists and worse, that all the Jewish people are complicit with its ambitions and tactics. I expect you may not agree with me about this, but I feel that something that was designed to protect the Jewish people in the past is, in the present, turning into something dangerous that could unfairly backfire against them instead of the Zionists .

I don't think any of us today and to quote you," make light of serious matters" because there is too much that affects our lives.

I know we will have differing views especially on religion, maybe Gaza, I don't know and you may vehemently disagree with the above but I hope we will have some interesting exchanges of views

reply to post by backinblack


An argument which is futile, as there's plenty of verses and interpretation to support both views of the matter.

Seriously, though, you're with me on this, right? They're arguing about the meaning of an ancient half fictional book, that could have been written, for all we know, by the guy that discovered shrooms...

What is there to argue about? The people that think God gave them Israel have ample proof that he did, and the people that don't like those same people will dig hard enough to find something that contradicts that...

reply to post by Eliad

Seriously, though, you're with me on this, right? They're arguing about the meaning of an ancient half fictional book, that could have been written, for all we know, by the guy that discovered shrooms...

What is there to argue about? The people that think God gave them Israel have ample proof that he did, and the people that don't like those same people will dig hard enough to find something that contradicts that...

Where am I with you?
I don't think there's "ample proof" of anything..

Books of fiction written by men prove nothing IMO...

Originally posted by Eliad


What is there to argue about? The people that think God gave them Israel have ample proof that he did...

People, how many times must I say this: if you read the whole Old Testament, not just the promise in Genesis, you will know that God did give the land to a certain people, but later rescinded His promise, and for good reason. The mid-twentieth century "return" was a counterfeit, a total sham.

reply to post by Lazarus Short


If you read it you would know no promises were rescinded, the Prophets tell Israel over and over that G-d will expel them from the land but will bring them back.

There is no where in the Tanakh where G-d says there will be a diaspora but no return.

There is always a return.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

If you read it you would know no promises were rescinded, the Prophets tell Israel over and over that G-d will expel them from the land but will bring them back.

There is no where in the Tanakh where G-d says there will be a diaspora but no return.

There is always a return.

I did know that, but did mention it because it has not happened yet - but it will. However, do not look for it to happen through human agency, for the Eternal Kingdom will NOT be established by the arm of flesh.

reply to post by backinblack


Should have put the word proof in quotation marks...

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by backinblack

 

Should have put the word proof in quotation marks...

Good idea, maybe next time..

reply to post by Lazarus Short


Whether you believe Eretz Yisrael is a sham or not.......

believe this............

Eretz Yisrael is going NO WHERE....it is here to STAY and there's NOTHING you or anyone else can do about it.

Like it or not....get used to that fact!

reply to post by Lazarus Short


If you look at the books of the Prophets the Israelites are brought back from the Diaspora before the Messiah. The whole divine intervention bit, i.e. the Day of the L-rd, happens when the entire world essentially declares war on Israel and tries to destroy it. Its not just any war though, its also a civil war.


In Zechariah 12:2-3, G-d makes Israel a burden on the whole world and its causes those who try to help it to suffer. Eventually the world grows tired of Israel and lays seige to it. Even Judah lays seige to Jerusalem (Zech 12:2) but changes sides after the seige begins. (Zech 12:5)
In Zechariah 13:8, 2/3 of Israel are slaughtered.
In Zechariah 14:2, Jerusalem is taken by the Gentiles.

This is the final act before G-d directly intervenes. (Zech 14:3)
Following the annihilation of the global coalition and the world being laid waste (Zech 11-12), G-d establishes his kingdom on earth where every one of the survivors set out on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem. (Zech 14:16)

So in regards to prophecy its instrumental for a pre-messianic Israel to not only exist but even have a civil war and invasion by a worldwide coalition of nations that lays seige to and captures Jerusalem.

reply to post by MikeboydUS


You will not convince me that what you quoted is not interpreted to Zionist advantage.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
reply to post by MikeboydUS

 

You will not convince me that what you quoted is not interpreted to Zionist advantage.

Can you at least go into some detail so I can offer a decent rebuttal?

Zechariah 12:2

Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah.

My interpretation was based on a different English translation and it made sense to me with the leaders of Judah discussing Jerusalem in a later verse, but the Hebrew shows the seige against Judah and Jerusalem.

Zechariah 12:3

It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it.

Regardless of interpretation, the verses show the entire world forming a coalition to attack Jerusalem.

Zechariah 12:9

And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Keep in mind this is the entire world.

Zechariah 13:8

It will come about in all the land," Declares the L-RD, "That two parts in it will be cut off and perish; But the third will be left in it.

2/3 of the people die.

Zechariah 14:2

For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city

Jerusalem falls.

Zechariah 14:3

Then the L-RD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle

The fall of Jerusalem, seems to be the "last straw" for G-d before He directly intervenes.

Zechariah 14:4

In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

Christians traditionally interpret this as the second coming of Christ.

Zechariah 14:12

Now this will be the plague with which the L-RD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth.

14:15

So also like this plague will be the plague on the horse, the mule, the camel, the donkey and all the cattle that will be in those camps.

The Hebrew word there for rot, doesn't have to mean rot in the traditional sense. Disintegrate would also work.

Zechariah 14:16

Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the L-RD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

There are similarities to Ezekiel 38-39, where a large alliance of nations attacks Israel and G-d destroys them with plague and bloodshed. As in Zechariah, G-d reveals himself to the earth and they no longer question His existance.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

You will not convince me that what you quoted is not interpreted to Zionist advantage.

Can you at least go into some detail so I can offer a decent rebuttal?

Well, I went back and reread the entire Book of Zechariah, and some commentary. What that prophet says is hard to get a handle on, some is obscure, and some seems set in a nebulous future. I would not try to shoehorn it into a version of the end times, but I know all too well that many writers and preachers have done so, when caution should have held them back. Most of them are pro-rapture, pro-Israel (so called), and dispensationalists. I'm not into the rapture (pre-trib or otherwise) "doctrine," or the dispensational interpretation of the Bible, or the identification of Jewish Occupied Palestine with Israel. I know what true Israel is and is not [note: it is NOT a piece of real estate unless you are discussing the ancient Kingdom of Israel], and I know the difference between Judah and the Jews. We shall, in time, see what these prophecies mean, and to what time period they belong.

OK, decent rebuttal please...

Actually it appears that a group of Israeli's have put forward a peace plan loosely linked to suggestions by the Palestinians which has a good chance of being accepted. Its on another thread and what a relief.

One can't help suspect that several factors have played an important part in getting this iniative up and started now:

The power the ordinary people have, against putting up with politicians that can't do their job on one of the most important policies for the welfare and peace of the Nation.

Damning report on the last Gaza initiative.

Also the fact that a claim to the Holy Land put forward from a religious perspective is now raising difficult questions which are best left lying quiety, as it is slowly becoming common knowledge that two separate Gods one Israeli and One Judaen have been rolled into one - so a 'lashed together God' concept can't hold the same authority as when the Abrahamic Peoples understood there was ony one God and not two halves. Its also clearer as to how much early Jewish history has been borrowed and considerably altered. This is all on the net for the world to see. You can't defend the indefensible claim anymore

But damned good luck with this new initiative and the bravery of those who are prepared to take on the zionists over this.

reply to post by Lazarus Short


It seems pretty clear its an "endtimes" prophecy and has been interpreted as such before Christianity. Zechariah was written after the Jews returned from Babylon when the Persians allowed them to resettle. So we know its not like some of the other books of the Prophets which may have prophecies about the return under the Persians. Its talking about future events beyond the time Cyrus.

Now you and I both know that the Roman Emperor Hadrian expelled the Jews from Judea and renamed the area Palestine. Jews were scattered all over the empire. Some returned over time and actually revolted again, but they never were the dominant population again until 1948. There were enough Jews there in 1799 that Napoleon tried to get them to join him against the Ottomans in exchange for their own country, but they were not the majority.

After 48, something bizarre happened. Not only did Yehudim return to the land, but offspring of Jacob whose ancestors had settled in Africa, India, and other Far Eastern nations. The ancestors of some of these people left as long ago as the Babylonian captivity and Assyrian conquest.

So you think its just a coincidence that all of these people have come togther from all over the world? This is the first time that these people have been together and as a majority in that land in almost 2500 years.

Now you claim to know what "true Israel" is? What exactly is the difference between Judah and the Yehudim? You do know the etymology of the term Jew?

There are other prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled, and are mentioned toward the end-times.

The destruction of Damascus, which is there come sundown, but doesn't exist come sunup. Same with Amman, the lands of the current West Bank, and of course the destruction of Gaza.

The problem with mentioning these is that there is a large segment of folks who have not read these items, they wouldn't understand what they read if they read it because of their hatred of Jews, or they'd blindly deny it.

Even a study of these prophecies taken from a neutral or secular viewpoint would indicated the basis for these beliefs.

And those promises? None were ever rescinded. I'm a gentile in every sense of the word, but I have to admit that the God of the Old Testament was very partial toward the sons of David, of Abraham, of Jacob. He had no problem punishing them, but you don't want to be one who tries.

The creation of Israel in one day was prophecied, and damn if it didn't happen just as foretold. While things for Israelis will not go smoothly, they'll never again lose their land. That was promised again and again.

Root for whoever you want.

My money is on those who I know will prevail.

reply to post by FarArcher


Those who are willing to take on Israel will fall first and be smitten themselves should they endeavor to to try! It will be a Muslim holocaust of such magnitude that they never again will threaten the world!

Zindo

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

So you think its just a coincidence that all of these people have come togther from all over the world? This is the first time that these people have been together and as a majority in that land in almost 2500 years.

Now you claim to know what "true Israel" is? What exactly is the difference between Judah and the Yehudim? You do know the etymology of the term Jew?

edit on 6/4/11 by MikeboydUS because: all

The whole problem is that the Jews, as I think I said, are trying to set up the Kingdom with the arm of flesh. As to true Israel, you go right back to the Jews as if that is all there is. Yes I know the etymology of the term "Jew." What you need to keep in mind is that the Judeans were one tribe of 12, so we're starting with 1/12 of Israel. After all tribes had been carried off into captivity, only some 50,000 of the tribe of Judah returned to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple. That 50.000 was a fraction of the nation of the Jews at that time. So you see, the vast majority of Israel never went back, and most people have no idea where they are today. The vast majority of the children of Israel is not to be found among the people called Jews. For the Jews to call their country "Israel" is deceptive. It should have been called Judah, or more properly Kazaria.

reply to post by Lazarus Short


They havn't set up a kingdom. They set up a mostly secular nation.

Why did you have to drag out the Kazaria nonsense? You made some good points about Judah just being one of the twelve tribes of Israel and then went to that.

The issue with ancient Israel is that the Assyrians conquered and enslaved the Kingdom of Israel, while Babylonia conquered and enslaved Judah (and the Levites). Descendents of Judah and Levi made it back under the Persian emperor Cyrus.

Until the age of genetics we have been unable to figure out exactly what happened to the other ten tribes. It looks like they went into Africa and further East. Remnants have popped up as far south as Kenya and as far east as Shanghai and Indochina.

These remnants in recent years have all begun immigrating to modern Israel.

Now anyone who actually looked at modern Israel's demographics would know that Mizrahim (Middle Eastern Jews) and Sephardim (North African Jews) actually make up the majority of the Jewish population. The Ashkenazim, even though they are the single largest group in Israel, the combined numbers of Mizrahim and Sephardim are higher.

In addition, also thanks to modern genetics, it can be shown only 1/3 of Ashkenazim do not have Semitic ancestry.

So the Kazaria argument has no ground.

Also note in Zechariah it does say that Judah, not Israel, and Jerusalem are under seige. So the idea of modern Israel really being modern Judea, may be most accurate.

reply to post by MikeboydUS


We'll just have to agree to disagree. I follow Arthur Koestlers's "The Thirteenth Tribe," which I consider authoritative. He was a better scholar and writer than you or I, or any of his critics. I must always question genetic studies, as science seems to have a bad habit of skewing, according to who is funding it. With that said, I suppose there could have been some true Israelites in the Kazar kingdom, perhaps remnants of the Parthian Empire, whose core population was of Israel. Many of them fled to the north and west after the Persians revolted about 225 AD, and became most of the "barbarian" tribes invading the Roman realm. Now maybe, you begin to see where the bulk of the twelve tribes are. Were you aware of the history of Parthia?

Laz