A Vote for Bush is a Vote for the Draft

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
If Bush gets elected, he will start the draft.

Well, I truly hope you're wrong ECK. A friend of mine who is a Navy Nurse says there will be no draft so early if Bush is re-elected. She says we have alot of back up reservist, more than enough to not reinstate the draft. However, Bush and the Neo-Cons will not stop with this war until either their job is done or they are found guilty of the crimes they have commited.

Duly noted, MM; however, when you consider the PNAC strategy for regime change in Syria and Iran... (not even mentioning N. Korea), a much different picture emerges.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Duly noted, MM; however, when you consider the PNAC strategy for regime change in Syria and Iran... (not even mentioning N. Korea), a much different picture emerges.

Yeah, I know. Which is why I don't fully believe her. When I became aware of PNAC, even though the Neo Cons say it's for the good of the planet, when you start to look at it and what this government has done since 9/11 and where it is going, PNAC is really to complete is conquest for global domination.

Bush, Bush, and more Bush....
Always Bush this and Bush that...
As par, hey, its Bush's fault and even IF he does not get re-elected, when the Dems institute their own version of the draft--- I mean after-all, wasn't Kerry the one talking about adding troops and troop levels---they will simply and eloquently turn around and blame it on Bush, won't they?

Let's look at what Mr. Kerry has said and/or insinuated, k?
He plans to add 40,000 +/- troops to:

to match its new missions

Kerry Calls for More Troops to Bolster U.S. Military

This idea or conception of Mr. Kerry's means sending more troops to Iraq/Afghanistan:
Kerry says he would send more troops to Iraq if necessary

Here's Mr. Kerry on record:

...John Kerry's plan will call on every American of every age and every background to serve.

Mr. Kerry further stipulates:

A Kerry Administration will offer Americans the chance to earn the equivalent of their state's four-year public college tuition in exchange for two years of service.

Creating a New Army of Patriots

Seems many of you, like ECK, BT, MrMulder, etc., are steadily and repeatedly forgetting House and Senate HR163 and Senate S89 bills that are backed and sponsored by virtually every Democrat.

Just a weeeeeeeeeeeeee bit of digging uncovered this information.

Might want to change the topic heading of this thread to what it should rightly assert:
A Vote for Kerry is a Vote for the Draft.

Btw, ever watched Sci-Fi's Scare Tactics? Thought so.




seekerof

[edit on 20-10-2004 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird

......insecurity.....

Right.

Just answer the questions. It seems like it is you who is afraid.

What you have written proves my contention(s) beyond a shadow of a doubt. You're either a kid with no knowledge of this issue; or you're trying pitifully to mislead people. In order to do that, one must be in command of the FACTS.

What questions have you asked relevant to the issue that hasn't been answered? You are the one who has yet to answer some of my questions.

What am I trying to mislead people into believing? You are the one who's misleading people (trying to rather) to believe there will be a draft only if Bush is in office, and that we actually need one. Just because you post a couple of articles stating people's opinion doesn't mean it's fact so where are your facts?

As a matter of fact, let's look at your "facts":
On Kerry -

He's actually more fiscally conservative and responsible than Bush has ever been.

Ahh...so he's been the President before? I must have sleep through those years.

Sadly, under this regime, the people do not have much of a say.

Yet you are able to post false statements with no consequence and according to you we've also had the biggest protests since 'nam. That's a lot of saying for people with no say.

On the draft bill -

It was introduced for two reasons:

1. BushCo. wanted folks to think they've shot it down.

Hmm...
So BushCo. hired democrats to introduce the bills and then paid a couple of them to vote for it so everyone can think that BushCo. shot it down?

And the democrats played along?

I'm a registered Republican.

I'm a registered Democrat

(but you couldn't pay me enough to vote for Kerry - and it's not that I think Dub is any better)

On Kerry about Iraq:

He seems to be making the noises of a realist, and that is what is so badly needed right now.

expound...

More of this NeoCon Bu# is only gonna lead us into war with Syria and Iran.

What if Iran and/or Syria starts acting up with your buddy Kerry in office? Then what?

One thing I do know is, if Bush is re-elected and what I said comes to pass, there will be no way around re-instituting a draft. It'll be universal (men & women both - which I strenuously oppose) and it will be up to the age of 35.

Statement without any basis in fact and certainly no proof.

It's amazing to listen to young people rant on about how great Dubya Bush is.

lol, not since the months following 9/11.
I would say the majority of young people DON'T support Bush.



...still searching for facts...

Seekerof,

I think the NeoCons are going to want a draft no matter what happens. If they want global domination, they have no choice but to recruit everybody ing this country, ages 18-35. I'm sure there are many democrats who favor the draft. Even though they claim to be Democrats, I'm sure they consider themselves more or so Neo Cons.

Kerry metioned sending in more troops because of Bush incompetence going into the War. He has no exit stradegy and Cheney said we would be greeted as liberators. I believe Kerry wants to correct the mistakes Bush has made. Not to mention the fact that Bush hasn't admitted to his mistakes.

It's quite twisted, indeed. They've lied about so many things.. how can anyone trust them when they say there will be no draft? They have NO credibility (w/out even referring to PNAC).

For one thing, Rumsfeld's own internal study bolstered my contention.

There WMD in Iraq! Slam Dunk! Remember? Rummy said we knew exactly where they were! Ha! Gotcha! No draft? Right.

The PNACers will frame Syria or Iran for some faux terror act and then we'll be forced to retaliate. When we do that, we will HAVE to re-instate the draft.

I've always maintained the drawdown from the early 90's was wrong. I saw it as being highly irresponsible fiscally and defense-wise. (The fiscal aspect is with regard to certain personnel and gainful employment.)

Originally posted by Seekerof
Bush, Bush, and more Bush....
Always Bush this and Bush that...
As par, hey, its Bush's fault and even IF he does not get re-elected, when the Dems institute their own version of the draft--- I mean after-all, wasn't Kerry the one talking about adding troops and troop levels

As I said before, he's talking about adding divisions. Being that I was against the drawdown to begin with, I have no problem with this. It's past time to alleviate our struggling Guard and Reserves. The Guard, it should be noted, should never have been used for this ill-fated fiasco to begin with. That is NOT what they are there for. All one has to do is look back to Vietnam. They were BARELY tapped for that equally disasterous greedWar.

Seekerof:
This idea or conception of Mr. Kerry's means sending more troops to Iraq/Afghanistan:
Kerry says he would send more troops to Iraq if necessary

We have to do something to correct the course we're on now, wouldn't you agree? What would you propose? I can tell you this, the stop-loss, being used as it is, is a forced draft. They are abusing the good will of our troops.

Seekerof:
Here's Mr. Kerry on record:

...John Kerry's plan will call on every American of every age and every background to serve.

Mr. Kerry further stipulates:

A Kerry Administration will offer Americans the chance to earn the equivalent of their state's four-year public college tuition in exchange for two years of service.

Creating a New Army of Patriots


I actually think that's a good idea. If we're gonna ask our countrymen/women to take on such a colossal personal risk, our nation should provide our veterans with benefits equally generous. I'm sure you would agree with that, Seekerof?

Seekerof:
Seems many of you, like ECK, BT, MrMulder, etc., are steadily and repeatedly forgetting House and Senate HR163 and Senate S89 bills that are backed and sponsored by virtually every Democrat.

Again, Seekerof, you're conveniently ignoring the reasoning behind it. But then again, as you like to say, we all have our agendas.

Take a long, hard look at this. It's quite interesting.

Do We See A Pattern Here?
10-20-4

Democrats

* Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.
* David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.
* Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.
* Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.
* Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.
* Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47; Medal of Honor, WWII.
* John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, Purple Hearts.
* Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.
* Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam.
* Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-53.
* Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.
* Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.
* Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII; Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons.
* Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze Stars, and Soldier's Medal.
* Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and Legion of Merit.
* Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart.
* Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze Star with Combat V.
* Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.
* Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57
* Chuck Robb: Vietnam
* Howell Heflin: Silver Star
* George McGovern: Silver Star & DFC during WWII.
* Bill Clinton: Did not serve. Student deferments. Entered draft but received #311.
* Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy.
* Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953
* John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and Air Medal with 18 Clusters.
* Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg.


Republicans

* Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage.
* Dennis Hastert: did not serve.
* Tom Delay: did not serve.
* Roy Blunt: did not serve.
* Bill Frist: did not serve.
* Mitch McConnell: did not serve.
* Rick Santorum: did not serve.
* Trent Lott: did not serve.
* John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.
* Jeb Bush: did not serve.
* Karl Rove: did not serve.
* Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. "Bad knee." The man who attacked Max Cleland's patriotism.
* Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.
* Vin Weber: did not serve.
* Richard Perle: did not serve.
* Douglas Feith: did not serve.
* Eliot Abrams: did not serve
* Richard Shelby: did not serve.
* Jon! Kyl: did not serve
* Tim Hutchison: did not serve.
* Christopher Cox: did not serve.
* Newt Gingrich: did not serve.
* Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor.
* George W. Bush: failed to complete his six-year National Guard; got assigned to Alabama so he could campaign for family friend running for U.S.
Senate; failed to show up for required medical exam, disappeared from duty.
* Ronald Reagan: due to poor eyesight, served in a non-combat role making movies.
* B-1 Bob Dornan: Consciously enlisted after fighting was over in Korea.
* Phil Gramm: did not serve.
* John McCain: Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.
* Dana Rohrabacher: did not serve.
* John M. McHugh: did not serve.
* JC Watts: did not serve.
* Jack Kemp: did not serve. "Knee problem," although continued in NFL for 8 years.
* Dan Quayle: Journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard.
* Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.
* George Pataki: did not serve.
* Spencer Abraham: did not serve.
* John Engler: did not serve.
* Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer.
* Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base.


Pundits & Preachers

* Sean Hannity: did not serve.
* Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst.')
* Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.
* Michael Savage: did not serve.
* George Will: did not serve
* Chris Matthews: did not serve.
* Paul Gigot: did not serve.
* Bill Bennett: did not serve.
* Pat Buchanan: did not serve.
* John Wayne: did not serve.
* Bill Kristol: did not serve.
* Kenneth Starr: did not serve.
* Antonin Scalia: did not serve.
* Clarence Thomas: did not serve.
* Ralph Reed: did not serve.
* Michael Medved: did not serve.
* Charlie Daniels: did not serve.
* Ted Nugent: did not serve. (He only shoots at things that don't shoot back.)


www.rense.com...

I know some will jump on the fact that the link is from Rense. Fire away. It's been posted plenty elsewhere. You can easily check it out at their own sites.

Are you denying that Mr. Kerry doesn't have a draft agenda, yet you will claim and assert that Bush does? Huh?!

Where will Kerry get the manpower for the creation of those so-called added divisions ECK? You re-uping? Thought not... So he drawing them from what available pools of manpower, cause if Kerry can find those "pools", then I'm sure Bush can find them too, eh?

All-in-all, this DRAFT crap is exactly that, bullcrap, and with what little proofs you have brought forth from the likes of truthout.com or org, or whatever, seems that there is sufficient evidences to say, prove, and argue to the contrary, huh?

Question:
Will Kerry, if elected, treat Iraq as another Vietnam? Think about it before you answer.




seekerof

[edit on 20-10-2004 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird

What questions have you asked relevant to the issue that hasn't been answered?

How old are you and what is your experience with regard to foreign policy - namely Mesopotamia? That's easy enuff for you, isn't it?

ECK, your listing of who served and with what party affiliation is quite entertaining.
Question: You post the list of those Democrats that served to show and give justifiable reason that the Democrats should or will bring back the draft?

Enlighten us, k, cause I'm a diehard war-hawk Republican and I served...your point again?

Your listing changes NOT that Kerry will bring back the draft....not one bit.

BTW ECK, I noticed how either you or Rense.com forgot to list Eisenhower, and a number of others.......



seekerof

[edit on 20-10-2004 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Are you denying that Mr. Kerry doesn't have a draft agenda, yet you will claim and assert that Bush does? Huh?!

Proposing to build new divisions is quite the opposite of promoting a draft. And you know that.

Where will Kerry get the manpower for the creation of those so-called added divisions ECK? You re-uping? Thought not? So he drawing them from what available pools of manpower, cause if Kerry can find those "pools", then I'm sure Bush can find them too, eh?

First of all, the answer to that question is far more complex than your question suggests. I'll allow your naivete in that respect, as you've never served. That is correct, no?

Secondly, if I thought there was a REAL threat and we weren't robbing Iraq of its resources, it wouldn't be that hard to convince me to go back in. As it is, I have no desire to kill innocent people, or take part in that, to bolster the bank accounts of criminals like Cheney and Rumsfeld. Let them go murder people. I prefer to earn a living these days fighting with the pen instead. I love watching the bastards squirm.

Bush doesn't need to find anyone with a draft. All men and women below 34 are his to draft. Pure and simple. If Kerry treats the military as he should, comes up with a realistic plan to deal w/Iraq and lets the military do their job (unlike these clowns), more people will join. It has to be worth it and the troops have to believe in their leadership. This administration has shot itself in both feet on that count. Take my brother's guard unit (from South Carolina) - before the invasion they were mostly Bush supporters. Now they are behind Kerry UNANIMOUSLY. Explain that.

All-in-all, this DRAFT crap is exactly that, bullcrap, and with what little proofs you have brought forth from the likes of truthout.com or org, or whatever, seems that there is sufficient evidences to say, prove, and argue to the contrary, huh?

Nice try, Seeker. It's a news and analysis compendium site. They recieve and post articles from nothing but credible outlets. You know that. And as far as this draft discussion being crap, we shall see.

Question?
Will Kerry, if elected, treat Iraq as another Vietnam? Think about it before you answer.

He came home and told congress what he heard and what he saw. I believe he will work on correcting the errors BushCo. has made in Iraq.

Originally posted by Seekerof
ECK, your listing of who served and with what party affiliation is quite entertaining.
Question: You post the list of those Democrats that served to show and give justifiable reason that the Democrats should or will bring back the draft?

Just wanted to highlight the hypocrisy of these idiots running the show. None of them have EVER served - other than McCain and Rummy. Rummy never went near battle, either. They should be nowhere near the Pentagon or any other high office. They need to go back to their little fishbows of academia - where they belong - in fantasyland.

I was very surprised seeing this list (having felt my own share of animosity towards the Democrats in the past). It betrays the limp-wristed image so many Republicans want Americans to have of them. An image of them I had for many years. When I'm wrong, though, I will admit it.

Enlighten us, k, cause I'm a diehard war-hawk Republican and I served...your point again?

Lighten up. I wasn't sure if you had said whether you had or not. No biggie. Btw, who'd you serve w/and when. Just curious.

Well, one thing is for sure. Rumsfeld doesn't seem to want a draft.

We're not going to reimplement a draft. There is no need for it at all. The disadvantages of using compulsion to bring into the armed forces the men and women needed are notable. The disadvantages to the individuals so brought in are notable. If you think back to when we had the draft, people were brought in; they were paid some fraction of what they could make in the civilian manpower market because they were without choices. Big categories were exempted -- people that were in college, people that were teaching, people that were married. It varied from time to time, but there were all kinds of exemptions. And what was left was sucked into the intake, trained for a period of months, and then went out, adding no value, no advantage, really, to the United States armed services over any sustained period of time, because the churning that took place, it took enormous amount of effort in terms of training, and then they were gone....

-Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, January 7, 2003

So is really saying there is no draft or is he saying something else?

He's just plain nuts. He believed we could invade and occupy Iraq with 48,000 troops for God's sake. Rummy's been in la la land for years now.

I will agree with the Rummys La La land comment (hey anyone know an Indie Band...I think we just discovered thier next album title).

This is no knock btw just an observation.

Republican....Bush's Sec of State Colin Powell (damn great guy taken for a patsy by his own boss....rep shredded...should never have signed on with GWB)..........military service?....in spades.

Lack of military service is not a bar to good leadership or CinC status.......Franklin Delano Rosevelt.....Polio sufferer...Under Sec of Navy.....President of the United States....CinC....died in office on the eve of the end of the war in Europe May 1945.

Prime Minister of Australia, Mr John Curtin. Australian Labour Party, left wing trade unionist, pacifist and active campaigner against conscription in two world war one national referendums (the No vote won). PM from mid 1941, expanded the draft provisions for Citizens Militia expansion, and the mandate from Australian Territories to the entire SWPA. Put Australia on a total war footing and worked closely with the US Forces Commander to defend Australia and defeat Japan. Working to exhaustion, died in office July 1945, barely a month before the end of the war in the Pacific.

A military and/or peace activist record is also no promise for either to be a successful or "honest" politician or national leader, or for the post of commander in chief.

Whether they have had military backgrounds, commercial backgrounds, or social conscious back grounds, history is replete with heros and villians from all, plus men and women who just got on with the job or those who were all about ultimately promoting themselves.

Bush will be seen as a villian at worst, lacklustre at best.

There is no promise or denial that Kerry will be any better.

There should be no preconcieved notions about where the best stock comes from for the job.

PS. That said it would be kind of more appropriate if more of these guys did have a military background or kin in uniform when they are deciding the issues concerning the military. In Vietnam, Korea and WW2 they did. But I am not going to hold circumstances and opportunities against them.

How many of us with thier chances can honestly say they wouldnt be in the same place today?



[edit on 20-10-2004 by craigandrew]

[edit on 20-10-2004 by craigandrew]

EastCoastKid I empathize with you completely.

I am 18 (those of you who did not wish to announce you age). I can say that I have not lived on this earth to truly understand what is going on. But to hell if you think i am not going to try and find out. I lived too long in a family (Very Concervative) and grew up concervative. It was until I sat and thought hey I wonder if what i am thinking could possibly be wrong? Which too many Americans fail to do. I never became politically active until I realized what is truly happening in the world. The Republicans are trying to "sugar coat" everything that they are doing with religion, supposed ethics, freedom-fighting...BLAH. It has reduced this political debate down to sound bytes which kids at my high school. (Tennessee) Ignorantly support bush. I ask why? why do you support Bush now. All they say is Kerry is a flip flopper and he is unpredicatable. Dear God what is wrong with kids to day they have no excuse. Hats off to those Republicans who wish to explain their points and vote from an educated stance, but IMHO I don't think they can do that now. Which has reduced them to this... I now face every day the real fact that rootin tootin Bush with guns drawn has way too much of a blood thirsty view. Not to mention a possible monetary one. How can I knowingly vote for someone who hasn't even really served and wants to take this country to wars? (Possible Plural) Kerry has served in Vietnam hate him if you want but he served with distinction and at least he served. Kerry gets harped on because of his dissapproval of Vietnam. If you don't like the way things are going or your reason for being there SAY SOMETHING. Its called the first amendment and he had every right to it. IMHO I don't think Kerry is a flip flopper. Kerry does what he thinks is best for the country. Everything isn't black and white like Bush wants to make it. If he votes one way on the war in Iraq nobody bothers to look at why he does or doesn't they just say, "Pfff you voted for and against so you obviously can't take a firm stance." Pitiful. Maybe it could occur to some people he votes differently because of the context of his voting record. Look at the issues and why he votes not how he votes.

Rambled off a little but I totally agree with everything you have said so far EastCoastKid. I do not have the military experience obviously but I would like to leave it in the hands of someone who has past experiences with war.

Also I would like to mention I like McCain too bad his party is making him shut up. He is a very distinguished soldier and what he and Kerry did in the aftermath of Vietnam should be recognized.

[edit on 20-10-2004 by EducatetheVote]

[edit on 20-10-2004 by EducatetheVote]

Since I assume everyone doesnt get the chance to read every post here or hand on my every word....I am 36 blue collar, married to a green and unemployed on health grounds. FYI