Originally Posted by EastCoastKid
Wishful thinking. These boys can do whatever the hell they want to do. they don't need or want our permission. Havn't you gotten that yet? Besides, you'd be surprised at what congress will do if the correct pressure is applied.

It appears you and I have come to the point of agreeing to Disagree on this point. But what I have posted ist the law of the United States, a president cannot intiate a draft only sign or veto it once it reaches his desk. You insist in believing that Bush has some sort of mystical political powers that he can use to get Congress to vote this way or another.

With that said when this election is over I am going to put a thread up called the "Draft Watch". I will continue to bump it back to the top about once a month. If no draft ever occurs will you agree to publically admit you were wrong. If a draft is instated I will definetely admit I am wrong. Of Course this is assuming Bush is re-elected.

How can you identify yourself as Air Assault and go against the draft. You, having served time in the military, should be praying for a draft. All of the snot nosed punks and losers that complain they can't get a job nowadays because daddy is handing them money and mommy is still breastfeeding them should serve their time in the US Armed Forces. Not everyone goes to war if they are drafted. All the Veterans and current members of the Armed Forces agree with what I am saying. This country should not have an "All volunteer Military" We should follow in the footsteps of the Israelis and the Greeks who have a mandatory 2 years of duty to their country as soon as they turn eighteen. Men and Women. We have certain freedoms in this country and it is mainly because of the brave men and women who decided to face their opponents on the battlfield and play a human game of chess. If it weren't for men and women fighting and dying for our freedoms, then we should just lay down (like the FRENCH in WWII) and let the enemy step all over us. If there is anyone to blame, you should blame yourselves for not fully supporting the military might of this great nation. I too am in the military, but if there was a draft and my number was called, I wouldn't put my tail between my legs and go scampering off into some corner like a beaten dog. I would take it on the chin like a true man and stand up to fight for the rights that I know should be defended till the demise of this great nation.

I e-mailed one of the democrats that introduced the draft bill. His name is Fritz Hollings - senator of South Carolina, and this is what he had to say in his reply:
"...I introduced a draft bill in January 2003, when our nation's defense needed more troops -- and we still do. We were misled into Iraq, and now the Commander In Chief tells the troops they cannot win. You don't draft young Americans for a mistake, particularly when they can't win. Under these circumstances, I would vote against my own bill creating a Universal Draft."

Essentially its this (btw I have served and I would answer a call up in Australia) most soldiers would not want to serve next to some who did not willingly come there, whether its because they wouldnt want to wish it on the poor buggers and/or didnt trust thier reliablity.

Secondly,most of the Generals would quietly feel the same way. Thats the advice the head of the Australian Army gave our goverment when it decided to introduce National Service for Vietnam, two weeks before they went ahead and announced it anyway.

Three. The military and administration as an organisation would not want it either because it is clearly demonstrated in the past and now that even the most one eyed supporter must see that it is not only politically and socially divisive, but economically it would not make sense to spend money on combating protests and conducting court proceedings against objectors and protestors for such an unproductive result, when they would get further putting the money into the troops pay and benefits packages.

Australian Soldiers twice overwhelmingly voted against the draft referendums in WW1 and its perhaps one of the best things about having been in the ADF that I am proud of.

how can you compare the ADF to the Unstoppable US Military Might. You need to check up on your history and see that there were other drafts, not just Vietnam. Did you ever hear of WWII, yeah, they had a draft then as well. Oh yeah, and they had plenty of volunteers, but it still wasn't enough to handle fighting the "World Forces of Evil" the Axis Powers. At least back then, people were angry about the enemy attacking us on our own soil (another conspiracy theory we won't get into right now). Two towers fell and the Impenetrable Pentagon hit on 9/11 and people just forget these things and cry about a draft because they don't want to fight for this country. If they feel that way, leave, then i can buy a bigger house and more land for my family who loves this country. The Mighty USA!!!

Well yes Boyo.....I did know that. In WW2 from 1942 onwards we were faced with Invasion and yes we accepted it. Our PM at the time was a a Labour Trade Unionist and Pacifist who was opposed to conscription for the war in WW1 but expanded the WW2 draft of OUR MILITIA for service at Home and in the SWPA. Our 2nd AIF like our AIF in WW1 was an all volunteer force. We were the first Western Country to introduce peace time conscription in 1911 after Federation in 1901, and Military conscription tore us up in Vietnam too. and I will be happy to give you a history leason about the Australian Military anyday.

As to our services and status, I would suggest that you glory boys (not the units I greatly respect, just a few of the Gungho idiots it cringes at owning) couldnt do stuff all without the thousands of Reservists who make sure you get your ammo, grits, and toilet paper up the line. BTW I don't usually indulge but man for man the ADF today or yesterday could take you anyday sunshine. A real soldier might be slightly tougher.

Think before you put your mouth/fingers into gear. I for one don't want the likes of you confirming what most of the people here erroneously think about the military as a whole.

[edit on 19-10-2004 by craigandrew]

Actually, I think I may have done people a grave injustice. I should clarify. I think that man for man, anybody in the ADF today or yesterday could have taken you in your prime.

I did not disrespect your forces.dont the hell disrespect mine.

There is no mistaking the tone.

Neither of us are in mortal danger of invasion.

Until the unlikely day comes a Madhist fleet exsists which can get across the Atlantic without the US sending it to the bottom, America has no need to introduce the draft.

With 2 million service men and women (even mostly in the tail) doing the job, America would have to be really stuffed not to be able to handle it in the states.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Keep dreaming. How old are you, anyway?

Ok, prove to me otherwise...then I might believe me. You offer no proof but ask me how old am I?
wtf?
How old are you?

The military does not have a say. The system now is at the breaking point. I already made your last point.

The military votes too.

What system? Our military system? If you think our military is at the breaking point, I can guarentee you it will break if there's a draft.

Sadly, under this regime, the people do not have much of a say. The voices of dissent are quickly muted by a compliant, whorish mainstream media (most especially by the blow-dried, dicksucking network TV "news" networks).

So, who has spoken out against the draft and has been "muted"?

You underestimate the will of the people. If there were a draft, what do you think will happen? Any attempt to mute dissent wouldn't end peacefully, I'm not sure why you think that.

I'm sorry. Your experience with the military and foreign policy is..? How old are you?

Trust me, reading your posts it's obvious that it's WAY more than your experience

Again, instead of providing facts on why we need a draft, you ask me how old I am....
What would a draft do that increasing troop strength in Iraq can't do?

Yes, and China or Russia could wipe us off the map, too, if they wished. Rational people/nations do not operate that way.

Exactly.

Still doesn't take away from the fact that without nukes or anything like that, we have the troop strength, weapons, and technology to do it...without a draft.

The United States should never have invaded Iraq without at least the equivalent number of troops we used in the Gulf War (750,000) - if not more. I say more because the objective in this case was to occupy. The whole thing was done in the most assenine manner, it's mind boggling. Anyone who claims to support our troops must consider the fact that Rumsfeld and his yes-men should be charged with high crimes for their execution of and conduct in this Mesopotamian fiasco. If I had my way, I'd kick his and Wolfowitz a$$'s out of my bird onto the streets of Fallujah to see a little Iraqi justice employed. They'd tear those idiots limb from limb under 15 mins. flat. Then you Bushfans would see just how grateful the Iraqis are for their "liberation."

I've always said we needed to send more troops.

You don't need a draft to do that though.

Also, you may be to young to remember, but during the first Gulf War people started complaining about overkill, same would have happened this time had we sent 750,000+.
500,000 would have been sufficient, especially if our bombing campaign lasted longer and there was actually planning....

Yeah right. Coming home in 6 months? Keep dreamin'!

Did you read the post? I said 6 months to a year after the draft is passed which would be at the very earliest a year from now.
Do a little math and you would see that's 1.5 - 2 years away at the VERY earliest. The Iraqis are already getting pissed at the insurgents, so how long do you think they can keep it up with both Iraqis and the US attacking them daily? In 2 years I highly doubt we'll see the...insurgency that's there now.

[edit on 19-10-2004 by ThatsJustWeird]

Originally posted by BlackJackal

It appears you and I have come to the point of agreeing to Disagree on this point.

With that said when this election is over I am going to put a thread up called the "Draft Watch". I will continue to bump it back to the top about once a month. If no draft ever occurs will you agree to publically admit you were wrong. If a draft is instated I will definetely admit I am wrong. Of Course this is assuming Bush is re-elected.

It's ok to agree to disagree. And yes, if I am wrong I will admit that I am. I have no problem with that. I was wrong to vote for Bush in 2000.

Very well said, Bout Time.

From Bout Time:

And finally, the push to pacify Iraqis cities held by insurgents will be out and out genocide; we again will be dropping daisy cutters in urban areas. If we don't, we will have a massive number of casualties; both are reasons that the insugencies have grown unabated - the administration has held them back because of the very negative publicity that either method would bring about, and they can't afford reality intervening prior to the election. So, our people die in dribs & drabs before an all out assault is authorized.....all for the image of George F***ing Bush.

Yes, BushCo. is waiting to hopefully get elected before they go for the jugular. Genociding innocents chasing shadows doesn't look good to an already worn out and skeptical electorate.

Here's Krugman from the NY Times on the possibility of the draft.

Feeling the Draft
By Paul Krugman
The New York Times | Editorial

Tuesday 19 October 2004

Those who are worrying about a revived draft are in the same position as those who worried about a return to budget deficits four years ago, when President Bush began pushing through his program of tax cuts. Back then he insisted that he wouldn't drive the budget into deficit - but those who looked at the facts strongly suspected otherwise. Now he insists that he won't revive the draft. But the facts suggest that he will.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
ECK: Your first sentence makes no sense. Yes, I asked you how old you are. Is there some reason you're unwilling to share that with us. Based on your comments, I'd say it's quite relevant. I'd say you're in way over your head here.

The first sentence was in response to your statement that the President can call a draft without Congress' approval. Show me how that's possible.

ECK: Our military is at the breaking point. What part of that don't you understand? Anyone who's ever served has to see that - without some NY Times article telling them. The article Bout Time referenced, that I posted, is very clear on the situation.

Again you have failed to read what I wrote. "?" <-- indicates a question. I asked what system. And I said a draft would push the military over the breaking point. There is no way a draft would be benificial to anyone.

ECK: I was speaking to a whole range of issues. Namely the invasion of Iraq. I don't know where you were, too busy playing video games, perhaps(?) to see the huge numbers of people protesting it. They were the largest PROTESTS seen since the Vietnam era. Then there's everything else down the line.. The will of the people? You can't even show up to watch this president without signing a LOYALTY OATH! I have never in my life heard of such horseshyte! Protest and dissent is NOT allowed under the Bush regime. It's FASCISM. Look it up.

Nice contridicting yourself....
1. We've had the biggest protests since the Vietnam war.
2. We aren't allowed to protest.

Which is it?

ECK: Way more than my experience, huh?.. right. Why do you avoid my questions? Afraid of revealing your youth and inexperience? Or maybe you're just a plant, an agent of dis-information? I highly doubt that, but it's one or the other.

Yes, more. It's becoming more obvious with everyone of your posts.

ECK: Yes, we have excellent weapons and technologies. We have some of the best-trained soldiers, sailors, Marines and Airmen in the world; but, if you're understrength, all those weapons are useless. Until you understand TO&E & Tipfid, among a lot of other things, you don't have a clue. Take the pin-heads in today's Pentagon - Rummy's boyz - those dolts (who have never served a day in the military) don't know their azz from a hole in the ground regarding these matters. If I were you, I'd quit listening to them.

With the right people (in the higher ups) and the right strategies our military should NEVER be undermanned or understrength....not with our superiority in just about every category. That's something that can be solved by putting people who know what they're doing in the right places, no necessarily through a draft.

ECK: Where exactly do you think the troops are going to come from? Are we to assume there's some big azz that we're just gonna pull 'em out of? I can't wait to hear you answer this one.

Can't I ask you the same thing? Where were the 750,000 troops going to come from? We didn't have a draft during the first Gulf War, where did they come from then?

Surely such hotspots such as Germany and....I don't know...Guam, can spare a few troops.
We only have 135,000 troops in Iraq. It's only been about a year and a half, so that's what? 1 maybe 2 TODs expired, rotations, add casualties and deaths, etc. etc. so that's (very rough approx.) 400-500K troops we've used max. It'd use up all our troops but the US is still capable of sending a million more troops (not including reserves). That would be extremely dumb, but the troops are there.

If we were going to go in we should have started out with a much better strategy and about 400,000 more troops. Iraq probably would be much more stable right now...

ECK: While I was over there IN THE WAR, I'd bet you were back here in the states still suckin' your mama's tit milk.

Your facination of wanting to be older than me is quite interesting. Does thinking that make you feel...superior or something?









......insecurity.....

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird

......insecurity.....

Right.

Just answer the questions. It seems like it is you who is afraid.

What you have written proves my contention(s) beyond a shadow of a doubt. You're either a kid with no knowledge of this issue; or you're trying pitifully to mislead people. In order to do that, one must be in command of the FACTS.