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A Vote for Bush is a Vote for the Draft

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posted on Oct, 19 2004 @ 08:43 PM
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Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Kerry has pledged to roll back George W's assenine tax plan and keep the taxes up for those who make above $200,000 per year. That's A LOT OF DENERO. And that will help most of us sturggling average Joes. I doubt many ATSers are a part of Bush's base, "the haves and have mores" as he so affectionately refers to them. You would do yourselves a great favor to consider this.

And hey, if Kerry goes back on that pledge, rest assured, I'll be the first one to tear him a new one here. I doubt he will, though. He's actually more fiscally conservative and responsible than Bush has ever been.


Kerry is not going to have enough money to do half of what he has promised. Here is Kerry's tax plan. Read it and report back here and tell me how he is going to fund just the 653 Billion in Healthcare he promises.

www.taxpolicycenter.org...

You see this is how it breaks down in the black and white.

Kerry's Tax plan will increase tax revenue by $565 Billion

Kerry's Promises

-$653 Billion for Healthcare
-$200 Billion to Fully fund "No Child left-behind"
-$358-$658 Billion for aid to state governments; increased funding for veterans' health care, homeland security, energy research and conservation; and job-creation tax credits.
-I don't have any figures on Kerry's plan to split the military but his plan is already in the red so I don't really need them.

www.washingtonpost.com...




posted on Oct, 19 2004 @ 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by EastCoastKid
Wishful thinking. These boys can do whatever the hell they want to do. they don't need or want our permission. Havn't you gotten that yet? Besides, you'd be surprised at what congress will do if the correct pressure is applied.


It appears you and I have come to the point of agreeing to Disagree on this point. But what I have posted ist the law of the United States, a president cannot intiate a draft only sign or veto it once it reaches his desk. You insist in believing that Bush has some sort of mystical political powers that he can use to get Congress to vote this way or another.

With that said when this election is over I am going to put a thread up called the "Draft Watch". I will continue to bump it back to the top about once a month. If no draft ever occurs will you agree to publically admit you were wrong. If a draft is instated I will definetely admit I am wrong. Of Course this is assuming Bush is re-elected.



posted on Oct, 19 2004 @ 09:10 PM
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How can you identify yourself as Air Assault and go against the draft. You, having served time in the military, should be praying for a draft. All of the snot nosed punks and losers that complain they can't get a job nowadays because daddy is handing them money and mommy is still breastfeeding them should serve their time in the US Armed Forces. Not everyone goes to war if they are drafted. All the Veterans and current members of the Armed Forces agree with what I am saying. This country should not have an "All volunteer Military" We should follow in the footsteps of the Israelis and the Greeks who have a mandatory 2 years of duty to their country as soon as they turn eighteen. Men and Women. We have certain freedoms in this country and it is mainly because of the brave men and women who decided to face their opponents on the battlfield and play a human game of chess. If it weren't for men and women fighting and dying for our freedoms, then we should just lay down (like the FRENCH in WWII) and let the enemy step all over us. If there is anyone to blame, you should blame yourselves for not fully supporting the military might of this great nation. I too am in the military, but if there was a draft and my number was called, I wouldn't put my tail between my legs and go scampering off into some corner like a beaten dog. I would take it on the chin like a true man and stand up to fight for the rights that I know should be defended till the demise of this great nation.



posted on Oct, 19 2004 @ 09:13 PM
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I e-mailed one of the democrats that introduced the draft bill. His name is Fritz Hollings - senator of South Carolina, and this is what he had to say in his reply:
"...I introduced a draft bill in January 2003, when our nation's defense needed more troops -- and we still do. We were misled into Iraq, and now the Commander In Chief tells the troops they cannot win. You don't draft young Americans for a mistake, particularly when they can't win. Under these circumstances, I would vote against my own bill creating a Universal Draft."






posted on Oct, 19 2004 @ 09:28 PM
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Essentially its this (btw I have served and I would answer a call up in Australia) most soldiers would not want to serve next to some who did not willingly come there, whether its because they wouldnt want to wish it on the poor buggers and/or didnt trust thier reliablity.

Secondly,most of the Generals would quietly feel the same way. Thats the advice the head of the Australian Army gave our goverment when it decided to introduce National Service for Vietnam, two weeks before they went ahead and announced it anyway.

Three. The military and administration as an organisation would not want it either because it is clearly demonstrated in the past and now that even the most one eyed supporter must see that it is not only politically and socially divisive, but economically it would not make sense to spend money on combating protests and conducting court proceedings against objectors and protestors for such an unproductive result, when they would get further putting the money into the troops pay and benefits packages.

Australian Soldiers twice overwhelmingly voted against the draft referendums in WW1 and its perhaps one of the best things about having been in the ADF that I am proud of.



posted on Oct, 19 2004 @ 09:37 PM
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how can you compare the ADF to the Unstoppable US Military Might. You need to check up on your history and see that there were other drafts, not just Vietnam. Did you ever hear of WWII, yeah, they had a draft then as well. Oh yeah, and they had plenty of volunteers, but it still wasn't enough to handle fighting the "World Forces of Evil" the Axis Powers. At least back then, people were angry about the enemy attacking us on our own soil (another conspiracy theory we won't get into right now). Two towers fell and the Impenetrable Pentagon hit on 9/11 and people just forget these things and cry about a draft because they don't want to fight for this country. If they feel that way, leave, then i can buy a bigger house and more land for my family who loves this country. The Mighty USA!!!



posted on Oct, 19 2004 @ 09:53 PM
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Well yes Boyo.....I did know that. In WW2 from 1942 onwards we were faced with Invasion and yes we accepted it. Our PM at the time was a a Labour Trade Unionist and Pacifist who was opposed to conscription for the war in WW1 but expanded the WW2 draft of OUR MILITIA for service at Home and in the SWPA. Our 2nd AIF like our AIF in WW1 was an all volunteer force. We were the first Western Country to introduce peace time conscription in 1911 after Federation in 1901, and Military conscription tore us up in Vietnam too. and I will be happy to give you a history leason about the Australian Military anyday.

As to our services and status, I would suggest that you glory boys (not the units I greatly respect, just a few of the Gungho idiots it cringes at owning) couldnt do stuff all without the thousands of Reservists who make sure you get your ammo, grits, and toilet paper up the line. BTW I don't usually indulge but man for man the ADF today or yesterday could take you anyday sunshine. A real soldier might be slightly tougher.

Think before you put your mouth/fingers into gear. I for one don't want the likes of you confirming what most of the people here erroneously think about the military as a whole.

[edit on 19-10-2004 by craigandrew]



posted on Oct, 19 2004 @ 10:00 PM
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Actually, I think I may have done people a grave injustice. I should clarify. I think that man for man, anybody in the ADF today or yesterday could have taken you in your prime.

I did not disrespect your forces.dont the hell disrespect mine.

There is no mistaking the tone.



posted on Oct, 19 2004 @ 10:05 PM
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Neither of us are in mortal danger of invasion.

Until the unlikely day comes a Madhist fleet exsists which can get across the Atlantic without the US sending it to the bottom, America has no need to introduce the draft.

With 2 million service men and women (even mostly in the tail) doing the job, America would have to be really stuffed not to be able to handle it in the states.



posted on Oct, 19 2004 @ 10:09 PM
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Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Keep dreaming. How old are you, anyway?


Ok, prove to me otherwise...then I might believe me. You offer no proof but ask me how old am I?
wtf?
How old are you?


The military does not have a say. The system now is at the breaking point. I already made your last point.

The military votes too.

What system? Our military system? If you think our military is at the breaking point, I can guarentee you it will break if there's a draft.


Sadly, under this regime, the people do not have much of a say. The voices of dissent are quickly muted by a compliant, whorish mainstream media (most especially by the blow-dried, dicksucking network TV "news" networks).


So, who has spoken out against the draft and has been "muted"?

You underestimate the will of the people. If there were a draft, what do you think will happen? Any attempt to mute dissent wouldn't end peacefully, I'm not sure why you think that.



I'm sorry. Your experience with the military and foreign policy is..? How old are you?

Trust me, reading your posts it's obvious that it's WAY more than your experience


Again, instead of providing facts on why we need a draft, you ask me how old I am....
What would a draft do that increasing troop strength in Iraq can't do?



Yes, and China or Russia could wipe us off the map, too, if they wished. Rational people/nations do not operate that way.

Exactly.

Still doesn't take away from the fact that without nukes or anything like that, we have the troop strength, weapons, and technology to do it...without a draft.



The United States should never have invaded Iraq without at least the equivalent number of troops we used in the Gulf War (750,000) - if not more. I say more because the objective in this case was to occupy. The whole thing was done in the most assenine manner, it's mind boggling.
Anyone who claims to support our troops must consider the fact that Rumsfeld and his yes-men should be charged with high crimes for their execution of and conduct in this Mesopotamian fiasco. If I had my way, I'd kick his and Wolfowitz a$$'s out of my bird onto the streets of Fallujah to see a little Iraqi justice employed. They'd tear those idiots limb from limb under 15 mins. flat. Then you Bushfans would see just how grateful the Iraqis are for their "liberation."

I've always said we needed to send more troops.

You don't need a draft to do that though.

Also, you may be to young to remember, but during the first Gulf War people started complaining about overkill, same would have happened this time had we sent 750,000+.
500,000 would have been sufficient, especially if our bombing campaign lasted longer and there was actually planning....


Yeah right.
Coming home in 6 months?
Keep dreamin'!

Did you read the post? I said 6 months to a year after the draft is passed which would be at the very earliest a year from now.
Do a little math and you would see that's 1.5 - 2 years away at the VERY earliest. The Iraqis are already getting pissed at the insurgents, so how long do you think they can keep it up with both Iraqis and the US attacking them daily? In 2 years I highly doubt we'll see the...insurgency that's there now.

[edit on 19-10-2004 by ThatsJustWeird]



posted on Oct, 20 2004 @ 08:38 AM
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Originally posted by BlackJackal

It appears you and I have come to the point of agreeing to Disagree on this point.

With that said when this election is over I am going to put a thread up called the "Draft Watch". I will continue to bump it back to the top about once a month. If no draft ever occurs will you agree to publically admit you were wrong. If a draft is instated I will definetely admit I am wrong. Of Course this is assuming Bush is re-elected.


It's ok to agree to disagree. And yes, if I am wrong I will admit that I am. I have no problem with that. I was wrong to vote for Bush in 2000.



posted on Oct, 20 2004 @ 08:49 AM
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Originally posted by The ArkAngel
How can you identify yourself as Air Assault and go against the draft. You, having served time in the military, should be praying for a draft. All of the snot nosed punks and losers that complain they can't get a job nowadays because daddy is handing them money and mommy is still breastfeeding them should serve their time in the US Armed Forces. Not everyone goes to war if they are drafted. All the Veterans and current members of the Armed Forces agree with what I am saying. This country should not have an "All volunteer Military" We should follow in the footsteps of the Israelis and the Greeks who have a mandatory 2 years of duty to their country as soon as they turn eighteen. Men and Women. We have certain freedoms in this country and it is mainly because of the brave men and women who decided to face their opponents on the battlfield and play a human game of chess. If it weren't for men and women fighting and dying for our freedoms, then we should just lay down (like the FRENCH in WWII) and let the enemy step all over us. If there is anyone to blame, you should blame yourselves for not fully supporting the military might of this great nation. I too am in the military, but if there was a draft and my number was called, I wouldn't put my tail between my legs and go scampering off into some corner like a beaten dog. I would take it on the chin like a true man and stand up to fight for the rights that I know should be defended till the demise of this great nation.


I'm a proud vet and proud to be an American, but I do not share your views on the draft and service. Spoiled slackers or no, young men and women should have the right to determine their own course in life. If they want to join, that's great. That is something I'm proud to have defended while in uniform.

If you want to go fight next to some ayehole whose itching to waste his own Lt., for example, b/c he's pissed at Uncle Sam for making him go fight, go right ahead. Not me. I'd take the volunteer Army anyday of the week. They're more motivated and more skilled, by far.

Here's an article I found on a possible medical draft. I'm not trying to freak anyone out, it's just current information.



Posted on Tue, Oct. 19, 2004





Medical draft plans updated

U.S. hired contractor to work on details

BY ROBERT PEAR

New York Times


WASHINGTON The Selective Service has been updating its contingency plans for a draft of doctors, nurses and other health care workers in case of a national emergency that overwhelmed the military's medical corps.

In a confidential report this summer, a contractor hired by the agency described how such a draft might work, how to secure compliance and how to mold public opinion and communicate with health care professionals whose lives could be disrupted.
www.twincities.com...



posted on Oct, 20 2004 @ 09:25 AM
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The Democratic bills offered were to level the playing field for a draft, so that this doesn't happen again: "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." (Colin Powells autobiography, My American Journey, p. 148)
Second, it's a fact that the Guard & reservists are over stretched and are being held in service via a stop loss order that, at this moment, has no sunset clause to it. Jumping JAAAYZUS, grandfathers are DEPLOYED!!

Third, draft board workers have been recruited by this administration already.
Fourth, we are operating under the Bush Doctrine, meaning that unilateral pre-emptive war is the standard - when you start wars your allies don't feel are justified, you're forced to go it alone. Regardless of the bluster put up about a coalition ( "You forgot Poland!"), we are spending the money & losing the people.
Fifth, our volunteer military is not setup to be actively engaged in the number of theaters that this administration has us covering: the focus is on the ME, but we're active in SE Asia, S.America &the Korean Penisula.
Sixth, Doctor Paul Krugman: "In fact, the all-volunteer Army is under severe stress. A study commissioned by Donald Rumsfeld arrived at the same conclusion as every independent study: the U.S. has "inadequate total numbers" of troops to sustain operations at the current pace. In Iraq, the lack of sufficient soldiers to protect supply convoys, let alone pacify the country, is the root cause of incidents like the case of the reservists who refused to go on what they described as a "suicide mission."

Commanders in Iraq have asked for more troops (ignore the administration's denials) - but there are no more troops to send. The manpower shortage is so severe that training units like the famous Black Horse Regiment, which specializes in teaching other units the ways of battle, are being sent into combat. As the military expert Phillip Carter says, "This is like eating your seed corn."

NY Times

And finally, the push to pacify Iraqis cities held by insurgents will be out and out genocide; we again will be dropping daisy cutters in urban areas. If we don't, we will have a massive number of casualties; both are reasons that the insugencies have grown unabated - the administration has held them back because of the very negative publicity that either method would bring about, and they can't afford reality intervening prior to the election. So, our people die in dribs & drabs before an all out assault is authorized.....all for the image of
George F***ing Bush.



posted on Oct, 20 2004 @ 10:11 AM
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Very well said, Bout Time.



From Bout Time:

And finally, the push to pacify Iraqis cities held by insurgents will be out and out genocide; we again will be dropping daisy cutters in urban areas. If we don't, we will have a massive number of casualties; both are reasons that the insugencies have grown unabated - the administration has held them back because of the very negative publicity that either method would bring about, and they can't afford reality intervening prior to the election. So, our people die in dribs & drabs before an all out assault is authorized.....all for the image of George F***ing Bush.


Yes, BushCo. is waiting to hopefully get elected before they go for the jugular. Genociding innocents chasing shadows doesn't look good to an already worn out and skeptical electorate.



posted on Oct, 20 2004 @ 10:19 AM
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Here's Krugman from the NY Times on the possibility of the draft.



Feeling the Draft
By Paul Krugman
The New York Times | Editorial

Tuesday 19 October 2004

Those who are worrying about a revived draft are in the same position as those who worried about a return to budget deficits four years ago, when President Bush began pushing through his program of tax cuts. Back then he insisted that he wouldn't drive the budget into deficit - but those who looked at the facts strongly suspected otherwise. Now he insists that he won't revive the draft. But the facts suggest that he will.




posted on Oct, 20 2004 @ 10:20 AM
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Oops.. forgot to add the link. My bad.


Krugman article:
www.truthout.org...



posted on Oct, 20 2004 @ 12:03 PM
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First, this post doesn't even deserve a reply, b/c of its sheer ridiculousness. But I will anyway.


Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
Originally posted by EastCoastKid

ECK: Keep dreaming. How old are you, anyway?

TJW: Ok, prove to me otherwise...then I might believe me. You offer no proof but ask me how old am I?
wtf?
How old are you?


ECK: Your first sentence makes no sense. Yes, I asked you how old you are. Is there some reason you're unwilling to share that with us. Based on your comments, I'd say it's quite relevant. I'd say you're in way over your head here.



ECK: The military does not have a say. The system now is at the breaking point. I already made your last point.

TJW: The military votes too.

What system? Our military system? If you think our military is at the breaking point, I can guarentee you it will break if there's a draft.


ECK: Our military is at the breaking point. What part of that don't you understand? Anyone who's ever served has to see that - without some NY Times article telling them. The article Bout Time referenced, that I posted, is very clear on the situation.



ECK: Sadly, under this regime, the people do not have much of a say. The voices of dissent are quickly muted by a compliant, whorish mainstream media (most especially by the blow-dried, dicksucking network TV "news" networks).

TJW: So, who has spoken out against the draft and has been "muted"?

You underestimate the will of the people. If there were a draft, what do you think will happen? Any attempt to mute dissent wouldn't end peacefully, I'm not sure why you think that.


ECK: I was speaking to a whole range of issues. Namely the invasion of Iraq. I don't know where you were, too busy playing video games, perhaps(?) to see the huge numbers of people protesting it. They were the largest PROTESTS seen since the Vietnam era. Then there's everything else down the line.. The will of the people?
You can't even show up to watch this president without signing a LOYALTY OATH! I have never in my life heard of such horseshyte! Protest and dissent is NOT allowed under the Bush regime. It's FASCISM. Look it up.




ECK:
I'm sorry. Your experience with the military and foreign policy is..? How old are you?

TJW: Trust me, reading your posts it's obvious that it's WAY more than your experience


Again, instead of providing facts on why we need a draft, you ask me how old I am....
What would a draft do that increasing troop strength in Iraq can't do?


ECK: Way more than my experience, huh?.. right.
Why do you avoid my questions? Afraid of revealing your youth and inexperience? Or maybe you're just a plant, an agent of dis-information? I highly doubt that, but it's one or the other.




ECK: Yes, and China or Russia could wipe us off the map, too, if they wished. Rational people/nations do not operate that way.
TJW:
Exactly.

Still doesn't take away from the fact that without nukes or anything like that, we have the troop strength, weapons, and technology to do it...without a draft.


ECK: Yes, we have excellent weapons and technologies. We have some of the best-trained soldiers, sailors, Marines and Airmen in the world; but, if you're understrength, all those weapons are useless. Until you understand TO&E & Tipfid, among a lot of other things, you don't have a clue. Take the pin-heads in today's Pentagon - Rummy's boyz - those dolts (who have never served a day in the military) don't know their azz from a hole in the ground regarding these matters. If I were you, I'd quit listening to them.




ECK: The United States should never have invaded Iraq without at least the equivalent number of troops we used in the Gulf War (750,000) - if not more. I say more because the objective in this case was to occupy. The whole thing was done in the most assenine manner, it's mind boggling.
Anyone who claims to support our troops must consider the fact that Rumsfeld and his yes-men should be charged with high crimes for their execution of and conduct in this Mesopotamian fiasco. If I had my way, I'd kick his and Wolfowitz a$$'s out of my bird onto the streets of Fallujah to see a little Iraqi justice employed. They'd tear those idiots limb from limb under 15 mins. flat. Then you Bushfans would see just how grateful the Iraqis are for their "liberation."

TJW: I've always said we needed to send more troops.

You don't need a draft to do that though.


ECK: Where exactly do you think the troops are going to come from? Are we to assume there's some big azz that we're just gonna pull 'em out of?
I can't wait to hear you answer this one.



TJW: Also, you may be to young to remember, but during the first Gulf War people started complaining about overkill, same would have happened this time had we sent 750,000+.
500,000 would have been sufficient, especially if our bombing campaign lasted longer and there was actually planning....


ECK:
While I was over there IN THE WAR, I'd bet you were back here in the states still suckin' your mama's tit milk.


Here are a couple of articles breaking down the situation. They're helpful in getting a more clear picture of what's actually happening b/c of the lack of boots on the ground and lack of equipment.



When Soldiers Say No
The New York Times | Editorial

Tuesday 19 October 2004

From the safe vantage point of America, it is scarcely possible to imagine the fears and concerns that spurred 18 Army reservists in a platoon in Iraq to disobey orders to deliver a fuel shipment to a distant airbase in the heart of an insurgent zone last week. Soldiers in combat cannot pick and choose their missions, no matter how grave the risks they are asked to face. Legal direct orders must be obeyed. But those giving the orders and the civilian Pentagon officials running this war also have unshirkable responsibilities. These include seeing to it that all units sent on hazardous missions have the equipment and support they need to accomplish their assignments and return safely.

The particulars of last week's incident, including claims that the platoon had been ordered out in unsafe trucks and without a proper armed escort, are still being investigated. Relatives testify to the patriotism and bravery of the men and women involved, and they report that the soldiers had told them about earlier, unsuccessful attempts to bring the chronic equipment problems to the attention of commanding officers.
www.truthout.org...

and below:

Marines Vent Frustration in Western Iraq
By Fisnik Abrashi
The Associated Press

Tuesday 19 October 2004



"We are losing guys left and right," says Cpl. Cody King, 20, of Phoenix, not hiding his anger. "All we are doing around here is getting blown up."

Most of the incidents these days, in this land of endless desert, dried-up river beds and winding dirt roads, include 155 mm artillery shells, mines and other sorts of crude homemade bombs. They make the Marines' enemy faceless and only heighten the feeling of vulnerability. The armor at their disposal is in short supply.



Mod Edit: Please refrain from making your entire post in bold.
General ATS discussion etiquette


[edit on 20-10-2004 by dbates]



posted on Oct, 20 2004 @ 12:16 PM
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Here's an excellent article on the reinstatment of the draft. It's well worth the read:

The Bush-Rumsfeld war machine is responsible for the bloated budget deficit, which will expand as the voids are filled inevitably by a draft if we remain on the same course.

By New Year's Day 2004, one service, the Army, had blocked over 40,000 troops from discharge or retirement on their appointed dates. Over 16,000 of them were National Guard. All told, over 70,000 troops have now been affected by Stop-Loss.

On January 20th, Lieutenant General James Helmly, chief of the U.S. Army Reserve, told reporters that the current situation is untenable, and that the military is facing a severe retention crisis, because the use of troops, especially Reservists is, in his view, abusive. Addressing troops, he said, We value your service and we're not going to run this like a doggone flesh farm.'

Repeated, long-term deployments will clearly take a toll on spouses and children of our men and women in the military here at home. Military service always entails time away from home, but we think that the active services - and particularly the Army - must find a way to better balance the demands of overseas deployments with the needs of troops' families back home. Otherwise, we may face a mid-grade retention problem in the coming years that will be devastating to our forces.


www.fromthewilderness.com...



posted on Oct, 20 2004 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by EastCoastKid
ECK: Your first sentence makes no sense. Yes, I asked you how old you are. Is there some reason you're unwilling to share that with us. Based on your comments, I'd say it's quite relevant. I'd say you're in way over your head here.


The first sentence was in response to your statement that the President can call a draft without Congress' approval. Show me how that's possible.



ECK: Our military is at the breaking point. What part of that don't you understand? Anyone who's ever served has to see that - without some NY Times article telling them. The article Bout Time referenced, that I posted, is very clear on the situation.


Again you have failed to read what I wrote. "?"



posted on Oct, 20 2004 @ 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird

......insecurity.....


Right.

Just answer the questions. It seems like it is you who is afraid.

What you have written proves my contention(s) beyond a shadow of a doubt. You're either a kid with no knowledge of this issue; or you're trying pitifully to mislead people. In order to do that, one must be in command of the FACTS.



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