Britains missed opportunities

This may be a bit off topic but, Westpoint23, have you seen the thread in the Board Questions and Business section on Grammar and Punctuation?

I think you should know about it.

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Rafael doesn't have it.

- well actually I think you'll find it does.

Also the typhoon and Rafael that your bough and are going to buy from the french

Is this how low British aviation has come that it has to buy planes form the french

- er no, Britain like Germany, Spain and Italy are buying Eurofighters (Typhoon 2 to the RAF) and France is buying Rafales.

So the Brits don't have super cruise the French do.

- I think you'll find if you look that both Eurofighter and Rafale have supercruise.

Next here is how it works the US spends money to developed new systems and other countries just do what we did they don't have to do it form the beginning cuz we were already there so they save money.

- I honestly think you'd be pushed to name 3 current technologies in use in the aerospace industry that weren't begun originally in Europe and actually started in the USA matey.

Jets, Afterburners, Radar, Computers, Composites, Lasers, Stealth, Variable Geometry.....they're all euro inventions.....so who's been standing on whos' backs? Hmmm?

The Typhoon is French, next the computer and lasers and some other things you listed are our buddy. Plus how would you rank the Royal air force among the world. And hyperen yeahi know of the thread a member sent me a U2U.


[edit on 30-7-2004 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
The Typhoon is French

The Eurofighter Typhoon is NOT French. They may have been part of the programme a long time ago but aren't now.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
French, next the computer and lasers and some other things you listed are our buddy.

A lot of inventions weren't invented by one person from one country and they evolve from thing to another so it can be hard to tell who invented important things like computers.

Listen up Westpopint 'cos luckily I never tire of educating people about the history of the Typhoon

The origins of todays two main European fighters, the Typhoon and Rafale (note spelling) lie in three separate national programmes. The were the British AST403 'Jaguar/Harrier replacement' the French ACF (Avion de Combat Future) and the German TKF90 (Tactische Kampf Flugzeug 1990) wich were formulated as design projects at the end of the 1970's.

When, around 1980, the British changed AST403 to a more A2A based requirement and separated out the Harrier element into ASR409 (leading to Harrier GR5) it was realised that a common fighter might be evolvedto meet all three projects. The FEFA (Future European Fighter Aircraft) was thus created. When Italy also joined the project the name was changed to EFA because it was pointed out that in Italian fefa is a rude word!

The problems began for EFA before a design had even been agreed as straight away France insisted on having design leadership, all final assembly and flight testing in France and control of all export sales efforts. The other three partners told France to 'bugger off' so France did indeed bugger off and continued with its ACF which evolved into the Rafale which is smaller, lighter and less capable than the plane that the British and Germans wanted (reference a Flight article from 1981 entitled "Spitfire 2 Becomes Spitwulf 190" Very good! "

It was then decided to proceed with EFA as a three nation programme and a little later Spain, who were courted vigourously by the French as well, decided to join the programme.

A prototype or technology demonstrator was to be built based on the BAe P110 design, in the event this demonstrator went ahead as a UK only project and to save costs a lot of existing parts were used, ie the engines, rear fuselage and fin of the Tornado.
The Eurofighter itself (as it had by now become) was also most closely based on another BAe design, the P120 which looked exactly like todays Typhoon except that the air intake was curved like that of the F-16 but with a splitter plate in the middle. At one point when it looked like the Germans would cause the cancellation of the Eurofighter programme BAe and the RAF both vowed that the P120 would be built even if Britain had to go it alone.

So there you are, the Typhoon has had no French input whatsoever but while the basic airframe design is mainly British it is entirely the product of the four main partners.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
The Typhoon is French,

- Oh no it most certainly isn't!

next the computer and lasers and some other things you listed are our buddy.

- No, the world's first totally electronic computer, Collossus, was made in the UK for real-time decoding of German signal traffic in WW2.

I'll agree that the first working Lasers were made in the US but Einstein (a european) was the one who first came up with the idea.

Plus how would you rank the Royal air force among the world.

- In what way?

In terms of trained pilot quality? Second to none as we keep demonstrating at various international exercises.

In terms of kit? Our stuff is fully up to the mission we require of it.

What's your problem Westy? Do we not play 'who has the biggest and most impressive' sufficiently to your liking?

Originally posted by Hyperen

Originally posted by WestPoint23
French, next the computer and lasers and some other things you listed are our buddy.

A lot of inventions weren't invented by one person from one country and they evolve from thing to another so it can be hard to tell who invented important things like computers.

- Yes, that's a fair comment Hypers but it is quite fun pointing out to an occassionally puffed up young American type that there really are very few techy things that are absolutely and completely 100% 'made in America'......and in fact most of the really big stuff was given to them originally and done by non-Americans! Ha!

- No, the world's first totally electronic computer, Collossus, was made in the UK for real-time decoding of German signal traffic in WW2.

I thought the world first computer was built by the US military during WWII and was the size of a room.

I'll agree that the first working Lasers were made in the US but Einstein (a european) was the one who first came up with the idea.

You need some serious education on the lasers I suggest you read here at this site.

First Laser

- In what way?

Everything the size, the quality of the jets, the weapon systems and training

I thought the world first computer was built by the US military during WWII and was the size of a room.

Nope, definately Collosus, although i do believe it had American input, but i may be wrong.
This makes me think of the film U-571, in which an American destroyer captures an enigma code book which enabled the allies to crack the code. But what was neglected was that the British had captured the book, and before the Yanks entered the war!

On another note, following the theme of the thread, does anyone know of the British HALO project for a Stealth Bomber? Been around for some time but all has gone rather quiet..... any info lads?

Everything the size, the quality of the jets, the weapon systems and training

I had to reply to this also. My Uncle is a Wing Commander in the RAF, and would have a field day taking you apart Westpoint. Better trained??? Our guys dont blow up our friends for a start, our training is second to none! We have the best GA aircraft in the Tornado, we have the worlds first VTOL aircraft (which america has some).
It is widely accepted that despite the percieved American technological advantage, the British armed forces are superior man for man. Our guys are disciplined, well trained, motivated, and don't have a tendency to blow everything up and shout "hoo-rah" when they have done it.

Westpoint isn't alone in thinking that the Americans know best. Its quite common amongst their military. When an E-3 visited the base where my mate is stationed they wouldn't allow the base's own groundstaff to direct the aircraft while it was taxying after landing as a truckload of US groundstaff arrived to meet the plane. When the Brits tried to point out the idiosyncrasies of negotiating this particular base, which had also been visited by RAF Sentry AEW 1's, they were told to shut up and leave it to the professionals, whereupon the RAF bods stood by and gleefully watched the US crew wipe off the entire port wing outboard of the outer engine against the wall of a hanger that just happened to be in an awkward position, the US personnel then had the cheek to try and blame the RAF bods for not warning them but fortunately the base commander had also witnessed the incident. We never heard what happened to the American crew, the air force probably just bought a new E3

He did tell me that the trouble with the Americans is that they are so strong numerically they don't need to train as thoroughly as they should, but they think they have and thats why they make so many mistakes. flying over Saudi in a C-17 my mate told me that quite a lot of the American troops thought they were in Arizona on excercise! They are so ill-informed.

The first computer was designed by a Victorian gentleman who ran out of money and couldn't get the backing to continue with his invention, he died in poverty and scorn but when his device was built many years later it was sound and practical, the first working electronic computer was indeed 'Colossus'. The trouble with 'colossus' was that it was so secret that it officially never existed thanks to the official secrets act (though it is publicly acknowledged today) so Britain, and more importantly the man who invented it who worked for the GPO, was never in a position to profit by this invention, the existence of which was still being denied in the fifties long after the US computer programme had gotten into full swing.

A great programme on this subject was made by Jeremy Clarkson in his series 'Inventions That Changed the World'

www.bbc.co.uk...

[edit on 1-8-2004 by waynos]

I had to reply to this also. My Uncle is a Wing Commander in the RAF, and would have a field day taking you apart Westpoint. Better trained??? Our guys dont blow up our friends for a start, our training is second to none! We have the best GA aircraft in the Tornado, we have the worlds first VTOL aircraft (which america has some).
It is widely accepted that despite the percieved American technological advantage, the British armed forces are superior man for man. Our guys are disciplined, well trained, motivated, and don't have a tendency to blow everything up and shout "hoo-rah" when they have done it.

Uhh...Im talking about the USAF here buddy not the ground troops and USAF pilots are some of the best in the world. Also the tornado don't make me laugh.. damn you just did You have the harrier are we supposed to be scared? And if your army is better trained you only have what... a 250.000 man army.
Im not trying to bash, I just want you to name to name me the British counterpart for these American jets just to compare them and see which ones are better F-15 F-14 F/A-22


[edit on 1-8-2004 by WestPoint23]

If I may Westy?

F-15 and F-14 were the best in their class for many years, F/A-22 is the best in its class and will be for many years, are you happy with that?

F-15E however is eclipsed by the Tornado IDS in general and Tornado GR.4 in particular as a strike aircraft, and although two USN F-14's were splashed by a pair of FAA Sea Harriers on excercise (was it a ploy to get the navy a new fighter maybe, don't make me laugh:lol you can't seriously argue that the F-14 is not the best carrier based fighter ever built (can't understand why the F-18E is deemed to be its replacement by the USN, unless its cash).

The F/A-22 is however untouchable, not because no one can build a better fighter, but simply that no-one can afford to. Typhoon is second to the F/A-22 but is also much cheaper, cheapness doesn't win wars but the Americans wont sell the F/A-22 to anyone who might actually use it against us so it doesn't matter.

The greatness of the aircraft doesn't really make the pilots any good though, that is down to training. Why do you think that British pilots flying the subsonic bomb truck conversion that is the Sea Harrier shot down 28 US trained Argentine pilots flying a mix of supersonic Mirage's and A-4 Skyhawks for no loss themselves. The superiority of British training and tactics is why.

[edit on 1-8-2004 by waynos]

The F-14 is getting replaced cuz its old and it costs to upgrade it, but in my mind its still better than the F/A-18. And Your going to say that just cuz you shot down some mediocre jets with pilots form another country that were trained by the US as proof that our pilots aren't good?

Originally posted by WestPoint23
The F-14 is getting replaced cuz its old and it costs to upgrade it, but in my mind its still better than the F/A-18. And Your going to say that just cuz you shot down some mediocre jets with pilots form another country that were trained by the US as proof that our pilots aren't good?

no we're gona say that our pilots are good never did we say that your pilots were crap,dont put words in our mouths.

No Westy, your Pilots are good, but they aren't that good!
As someone previously stated, the Americans supereriority is based on tech, not training.
I know a chap in the TA, who has trained with American troops, and it takes a whole team of "specialists" to do what 1 British soldier can do. For example, he is in the signals, so it would be expected that he would deal with telecoms.....but, he is also expected to fight, repair the genny, repair the Landrover, or anything else that his CO wants him to do, all whilst in the field. In contrast, if an american vehicle broke down, they would simply tow it away and replace it, as the crew would not have a clue how to fix it, or have any inclination too.

I have said time and time again Westpoint, you are blinded by the belief in American superiority, when it is quite clear that the general level of training and intellignece of the soldiers is significantly below that of many other nations. It is just that you have more money, henceforth more troops with bigger, shinier and more expensive toys. Our forces make do on a tight budget, and we are still way up there in competence and feared throughout the world as a highly competent and fearsome fighting force. The US forces are feared just for their uncanny ability at blowing EVERYTHING up.......................................

Not all US troops are as idiotic as you describe them sure some of them who didn't even go to high School and enlisted, may not be too bright but e there are other troops that know a whole lot more and are more disciplined.

I was a junior officer in the Royal Navy in the 1980s, based on ARK ROYAL. We were working closely with a couple of USN carriers & we had 2 of their trainee officers (LT JGs) on exchange with us. They had been on SARATOGA for a while (about 8 months if I remember) & we were very interested in their huge ship & quized them about propulsion systems, logistics etc. One of the these USN guys was asked what's the main propulsion system on SARATOGA: is it steam, gas turbines, nuke powered..??
His reply... "Gee, I dunno, I don't know much about that sort of thing"
This bloke, nice that he was, had spent 4 years at Annapolis, several months on a carrier & didn't have a clue....!!!
I also remember the 2 SHARS taking out some F14s. The US carriers responded with ALPHA strikes...

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Not all US troops are as idiotic as you describe them sure some of them who didn't even go to high School and enlisted, may not be too bright but e there are other troops that know a whole lot more and are more disciplined.

Something that shocked me about the US army came out of the death of Pfc Pat Tillman in Afghanistan - much was made of how he gave up his $3m a year career for about $16k a year as a specialist in the army.

This is very low pay when you consider the average wage in the US is above $35k.

By comparision to ecomony etc the British soldier are better paid.

The old Adage 'You get what you pay for comes to mind' ...

I knew an ex- US Army officer who had settled in Germany back in the 90's he was veteran of the gulf and he told me (though at the time I could really believe it) that over half of the grunts under command could not read and write properly ... he told me that all the physcologoical c**p they put out over Armed Forces Radio was actually believed by the grunts - (I ised to listen to in Germany as it was the only English language station I could pick up - majorly paranoid station.