Britains missed opportunities

[edit on 27-7-2004 by waynos]

The TSR2 was the big deal by my reckoning.

The others cancelled at that mid 60's time, whilst impresive, were probably too costly and too technically demanding to perfect. We in Britain probably made the right choice to stop developing them. I'm thinking of the supersonic Harrier P1154, the HS681 V/Stol airliner/transport.

But the TSR2 was the one.

Big ( = easliy upgradable electronics over the years), long ranged, heavy load capacity and very very fast at low level. Easily the better of the contempory F 111.

But it was the costs that killed it.

It had cost a fortune by the time it was axed and it was going to keep on costing a fortune to get right. Just like the USA's F 111.

The UK needed sales to off-set those high costs but, then again, other than Australia and Canada who else could or would we have sold them to?

The Americans would never have bought more than a handful if at all and there was no way we'd have sold such hi-tech to just anyone else in those cold-war days.

The truth was IMO that the UK wanted ballistic missile technology. Having cancelled the domestic program the only thing left was to cosy up to the USA and ultimately, rightly or wrongly, end up with first Polaris and later Trident.

Duncan Sandys the conservative minister of defence/war was able to cancel projects right left and centre in 1957 but to think Harold Wilson's government was damned for years - just for axing the TSR2 - as not acting in the UK's interests! Some people talked in terms of treason for goodness sake! Seriously. The TSR2 arroused some passion in it's day but I must admit I never understood it taken that far.



[edit on 28-7-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
The TSR2 was the big deal by my reckoning.

The others cancelled at that mid 60's time, whilst impresive, were probably too costly and too technically demanding to perfect. We in Britain probably made the right choice to stop developing them. I'm thinking of the supersonic Harrier P1154, the HS681 V/Stol airliner/transport.

But the TSR2 was the one.

Big ( = easliy upgradable electrincis over the years), long ranged, heavy load capacity and very very fast at low level. Easily the better of the contempory F 111.

But it was the costs that killed it.

It had cost a fortune by the time it was axed and it was going to keep on costing a fortune to get right. Just like the USA's F 111.

Actually no it wasnt the costs that killed it, it was the US government. The TSR2 was going to be under budget for each aircraft bought, but the US government didnt want a competing aircraft to the F-111, which was being developed at the time.

The TSR2 was going to be the next gen plane of its time, and indeed a lot of the technology developed for it went straight into the Tornado and eurofighter later on.

The US government got its chance to pressure the UK government when the UK government applied for a large loan from the International Monetory Fund and the US government had power of veto on the loan.

The US government brokered a deal whereby the UK government put purchase options on the F-111 and scrapped the competing TSR2, and the UK government got its loan approved by the US.

In the end, the F-111 was so over due, over budget and under featured that the UK government decided not to persue its purchase options, and instead bought a number of surplus Phantoms, but in order to save a little face they stipulated that they needed to have British engines.

So Roles Royce was told to put the engines they developed for the TSR2 into the phantom, making them grossly overweight and basically useless for pretty much anything.

As an interesting side note, the cockpit on the TSR2 was quite a way forward of the front undercarraige, and when the plane landed it caused vibration in the forward fuselage. This vibration was exactly the right frequency for the optical nerve and caused temporary blindness in the crew, so the test pilots were trained to handle the aircraft totally by touch and the systems were setup with a unique audio output.

Don't worry, I will get to the TSR 2. BTW the Phantom was fitted with the Spey engine while the TSR2 used a variant of the Olympus. It is true however that the F-4K and F-4M were the slowest Phantoms in the world due to the drag of the bigger engines more than cancelling out the extra thrust while the TSR 2 would have been the best strike aircraft in the world throughout the 70's and 80's by a mile. RAF phantoms were originally deployed as strike aircraft and were replaced by Jaguars when the Phantoms were re-issued to the fighter squadrons in the mid to late seventies.

Same thing happened to the Avro Arrow, damn Americans and their competition-hating ways, odd for a capitalist country.

Ok someone needed to do this *slap* wake up and stop crying about the past and look towards the future *damn that sounded like a preach* but anyway could of should of would of are lame this was the old days where the US didn't want tbe number two so it bought out good designs well something never change

But don't you know that the past holds vital lessons for the future? The trouble is the UK never Learns. You know what RAF stands for? It might as well be Really Ancient Fighters.

or Roll Away the Future if Tony the Traitor Bliar has his way...

you should not have said that westpoint
frankly you bought? bought isnt the word more like aqquire by deception,bullying,threatning and illegal activity.
also *hook* no yanky SOB hits me (no offense intended to the mass american public)
and crying about the past we're not we're showing how our "allies" screwed us

Originally posted by devilwasp
you should not have said that westpoint
frankly you bought? bought isnt the word more like aqquire by deception,bullying,threatning and illegal activity.
also *hook* no yanky SOB hits me (no offense intended to the mass american public)
and crying about the past we're not we're showing how our "allies" screwed us

Damn right, devilwasp. I, too, am angered by Americans saying how great 'their' technology is when most of the time it has come from someone else.

Also annoys me when they complain about how the Russians stole so much technology in the cold war. Americans are generally so hypocritical.

*hook* huh id like to see that.
But to get back on topic devil how much technology has the US given to Britain al lot so you do us a favor and we do you a favor its not like were stealing your tech and not giving anything in return and when have we used illegal activities if your talking about spying well we never spied on Britain.

Originally posted by WestPoint23

*hook* huh id like to see that.
But to get back on topic devil how much technology has the US given to Britain al lot so you do us a favor and we do you a favor its not like were stealing your tech and not giving anything in return and when have we used illegal activities if your talking about spying well we never spied on Britain.

yaeh i never actually hook some one i prefer to use the elbow more than the fist. but if u want just come over im sure there will be lots of marines and pongo's willing to show u
hmm let me see you have given us what? a tank?
a misile? one plane as in ONE not more than one.
also you have spied on us maybe not militarily but industrially , of that i am sure.
also how can not letting us build a plane be doing us a favour?

yaeh i never actually hook some one i prefer to use the elbow more than the fist. but if u want just come over im sure there will be lots of marines and pongo's willing to show u
hmm let me see you have given us what? a tank?
a misile? one plane as in ONE not more than one.
also you have spied on us maybe not militarily but industrially , of that i am sure.
also how can not letting us build a plane be doing us a favour?

Im sure the Cadets will be pissed at me
Oh common we have given Britain armed forces a lot of technology and they have given us some. Also devil don't misunderstand my words i said you do us favors(as in you give us tech) and we do you a favor(as in we give you tech back) no do you understand it? Also when have ewe stopped the RAF from building a certain plane.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Also when have ewe stopped the RAF from building a certain plane.

It says in the post above by RichardPrice. I don't if it's true or not, you could ask for a link or something though

Actually no it wasnt the costs that killed it, it was the US government. The TSR2 was going to be under budget for each aircraft bought, but the US government didnt want a competing aircraft to the F-111, which was being developed at the time.

The TSR2 was going to be the next gen plane of its time, and indeed a lot of the technology developed for it went straight into the Tornado and eurofighter later on.

The US government got its chance to pressure the UK government when the UK government applied for a large loan from the International Monetory Fund and the US government had power of veto on the loan.

The US government brokered a deal whereby the UK government put purchase options on the F-111 and scrapped the competing TSR2, and the UK government got its loan approved by the US.

Originally posted by WestPoint23



Im sure the Cadets will be pissed at me

Oh common we have given Britain armed forces a lot of technology and they have given us some. Also devil don't misunderstand my words i said you do us favors(as in you give us tech) and we do you a favor(as in we give you tech back) no do you understand it? Also when have ewe stopped the RAF from building a certain plane.

who said anything about cadets
u dont give us nothing mabye a sam launcher or a missile but that it!
one thing u prob never get is the new spearfish torp.

The TSR 2 was killed off after intense pressure from the US to scrap it and buy the decidely inferior F-111, which was later also cancelled and replaced by the Buccaneer which was a better strike aircraft in the way the RAF wanted to operate it, the US didn't mind this however as the Buccaneer was already quite old tech and not a threat to the US and as far as killing off the TSR 2 was concerned the US knew it was mission accomplished. Even the Tornado, the best low level strike aircraft in the world today, falls short of the TSR 2 except in areas like electronics which would have been integrated into the latter type over time anyway.

Damn looks like the USAF really messed Britain's projects up is it like that still today? does the USAF or US military still pressure Britain not to finish certain projects? Also devil don't give s the torpedo but you isn't getting MTHEL system.

Originally posted by devilwasp
one thing u prob never get is the new spearfish torp.

Who cares? If we had a need for a torpedo that was that fast we would have built our own version of it.

Might want to look into the seeker and guidance system on the torpedo and where they came from before you boast about that thing.

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Damn looks like the USAF really messed Britain's projects up is it like that still today? does the USAF or US military still pressure Britain not to finish certain projects? Also devil don't give s the torpedo but you isn't getting MTHEL system.

I don't know if its still like that but I wouldn't be too surprised. There was a joint BAE/Northrop proposal to build a two seat strike version of the YF-23 to meet the FOAS requirement so maybe things are better now?

Originally posted by COOL HAND

Originally posted by devilwasp
one thing u prob never get is the new spearfish torp.

Who cares? If we had a need for a torpedo that was that fast we would have built our own version of it.

Might want to look into the seeker and guidance system on the torpedo and where they came from before you boast about that thing.

Spearfish is a fine weapon (I speak from exp- former RN SM Weaps Offcr)