Originally posted by NOTurTypical
It would be had for those who have never read Revelation or Acts. When Christ returns it will be upon clouds from heaven, in the Eastern sky and He will first set foot upon the mount of Olives in Jerusalem. Not finished, the mountain will cleave into two. Gabriel said in Acts to the apostles that Jesus would return in the same manner as He ascended into heaven.

And I suppose you take all this as literal?

And if you do...

I suppose you call christ a liar? For he said himself that he was going to the Father. That his return would be within his followers, those who keep his commandments.

5But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? 6But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Notice he was sending a comforter, not himself.

Of Sin, because they do not believe Christ, of righteousness because he goes to the father, of judgement because the prince of this world is judged. Who is the Prince of this world at the moment? Judgement itself, the adversary of God, the part of us that refuses to each and every part as perfect, as God judged it in the beginning. Man is addicted to the knowledge of Good and Evil and will not give up that fruit.

Give it up my friend. It is poison to the soul.

Originally posted by eight bits
adjensen

Ehrman is a good historian, but he uses 21st Century expectations of textual qualities to analyze 1st Century texts, and I'm not sure that his findings are supportable.

So, just to be clear, is it your view that 2 Peter was written by the Apostle Peter, that the Pastoral epistles were written by Paul, author of Galatians, and that all of these books were written during the First Century?

I don't really know. There is nothing in the Bible as much like First Peter as is Second Peter, and I've always put down the differences to my personal belief that Peter was not likely to be literate and used different scribes who would produce works that differed in subtle and not so subtle ways. Similarly, the letters of Paul that are suspected of being forgeries are different in nature, anyway -- one would think that a letter to Timothy, who he viewed as his son, would naturally have a different flavour than one written to "you foolish Galatians!"

But, on the other hand, there are differences in the nature of the texts that are concerning -- Paul seems rather respectful of women, such as Priscilla of Corith and Ephesus, and yet he's also telling them to keep their mouths shut in church. Though Paul lived in a patriarchal society, there seems to be enough bi-polarity there to question whether the more virulent anti-female parts weren't somehow distorted or added to.

That's one of the reasons that I stick to my holistic view of the Bible -- if Paul seems to generally be of the opinion that we're all "one in Christ" and praises the missionary teachings of Priscilla, it seems a bit unlikely that he'd subsequently single out women as not being "one in Christ" and unworthy of teaching.

You and I seem to be in agreement that the full reasoning of the Second Century Fathers isn't directly available to us. How do you propose, then, that somebody back then would have been able to authenticate a document written before they were born?

Just as we're able to point to this document that is dated to XX, and surmise that references within that document may then be dated at least to XX, I would presume that the Church Fathers had access to proofs, documentary in nature, which demonstrated a source, and that these proofs are now lost to us. My personal belief is that there was a "Hebrew Gospel of Matthew", for example, from which Matthew, Mark and Luke are derived, but the original text is lost, so we'll likely never know. But for someone in the 1st Century, the authenticity of those Gospels would be measured against the story told in the original text laid down by the most obvious scribe who witnessed the events of Christ's life.

Also, I am unsure that relying on the deterioration of transmission fidelity over time is a winning argument for your larger viewpoint. It may help with the authorship question, but seems to suggest some other problems.

Well, a lot of textual criticism relies on things that border on subtle, such as a text which uses a word not otherwise found in an author's writings, or phraseology that isn't consistent with the time that the text is thought to have been written, but it seems like those sorts of things can creep in during translation and reproduction, by mistake. It doesn't change or refute the text, necessarily, but it gives scholars like Ehrman an "in" to say that we have a problem here.

That works the other way, too -- Ehrman notes that a case can be made for forgery in the instance of the Mar Saba letter, because the text sounds more like Clement than Clement does. If it is a fake, it was made by someone who was familiar with the writings of Clement, and produced a work that is "too perfect" -- so much like a textbook Clement that Clement couldn't have possibly been the author.

That's what I mean about putting too much into textual criticism. If the text which is attributed to Peter in the Bible in is harmony with the rest of scripture, I'm not super concerned with whether it was written by Peter, a scribe hired by Peter, or some guy named Joe ten years after Peter died. My belief that the Mar Saba letter is a forgery is based on its content being highly suspect -- that WHAT is written is the problem, rather than HOW it is written, which is where Ehrman and other critics come in.

How can you say, ‘We are wise,
And the law of the LORD is with us’?
Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.

The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together

We are for signs and wonders in Israel From the LORD of hosts, Who dwells in Mount Zion.

Number of abortions per year: Approximately 46 Million
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 126,000 www.mswm.org...

Taken all together, we have 401 million deaths over nearly 2000 years of war and barbarism. Just for the sake of argument, let’s add another 10%, or 40 million, to cover margins of error, and other wars. This would bring our total to 441 million deaths over the last 20 centuries.

Now, what about abortion? At the low end of the Guttmacher scale, even if we ignore all abortions done prior to 1980 when accurate numbers are a little more difficult to ascertain, abortion accounts for more than twice the number of deaths by war! In just the last 25 years, the ghastly toll for abortion has totaled over 900 million dead babies. Taking the more probable mean average, the toll rises to well over 1 billion babies; or nearly three times the amount of deaths due to war. www.covenantnews.com...

"The data clearly shows what we have long suspected: that abortion is harmful rather than helpful to women," said Elliot Institute director Dr. David Reardon, one of several researchers working on the study..example, found that women who had abortions were three-and-a-half times more likely to die within the next year as women who carried their pregnancies to term..They also presented studies that found higher rates of depression, mental illness, miscarriages and substance abuse among post-abortive women compared to women who gave birth.."We can't expect an immediate change in attitudes, of course, but I'm confident that we were able to plant some seeds www.afterabortion.org...

A conspiracy of silence seems to surround the well-documented excess of suicide deaths among women with a history of abortion.Dr. Barry Garfinkel, head of the University of Minnesota's Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Department, surveyed teenagers to determine what factors contributed to depression, stress, and thoughts of suicide. The study found that girls who had abortions were four times as likely to attempt suicide as girls who had not aborted.
"Suicide More Likely Among Aborted Teens" National Right to Life News 4 Apr. 2, 1987

Dr. Carl L. Tishler found that post-abortion teenagers are more likely to commit suicide on or near the anniversary of their abortions than at any other time.
Carl L. Tishler, Ph.D., Adolescent Suicide Attempts Following Elective Abortion: A Special Case of Anniversary Reaction Pediatrics 670-671 Nov 1981 realchoice.0catch.com...

A report released by the National Institutes of Health (NIH) shows that the suicide rate among teen girls and young women has tripled in the past 25 years, despite an overall drop in suicide rates across the United States.

NIH reports that suicide is now the third leading cause of death among American young people, and the sixth leading cause of death for children between the ages of 5 and 14 www.physiciansforlife.org...

It is also worth noting the suicide rate among women in China is the highest in the world. Indeed, 56 percent of all female suicides occur in China, mostly among young rural women.(12) It is also the only country where more women die from suicide than men. For women under 45, the suicide rate is twice as high as that of Chinese men. Government officials are reported to be at a loss for an explanation..Given the known link between abortion and suicide, can there be any doubt that maternally-oriented Chinese women who are coerced by their families and communities to participate in these atrocities are more likely to commit suicide? www.abortiontv.com...

While white women obtain 60% of all abortions, their abortion rate is well below that of minority women. Black women are more than 3 times as likely as white women to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are roughly 2 times as likely.

Who's having abortions (marital status)?
64.4% of all abortions are performed on never-married womenwww.mswm.org...

one night after an abortion had taken place I went to pick up a green Gideon NT that had been left on the kitchen bar by the same who had gotten one (whose very name first and last as well as human descent is so accurate to the scriptures it is frightning) and as I started to open just the cover an audible voice like a friend sitting on my left would said my name then "I am Jesus, I died for your sins, believe in Me and you will never perish" then after a while came across these scriptures

Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died

He will not quarrel nor cry out,Nor will anyone hear His voice in the streets.

And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony.

for the twins not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls

the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes

And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female

"Father of Modern Genetics"

Dr. Lejeune explained that within three to seven days after fertilization we can determine if the new human being is a boy or a girl. "At no time," Dr. Lejeune said, "is the human being a blob of protoplasm. As far as your nature is concerned, I see no difference between the early person that you were at conception and the late person which you are now. You were, and are, a human being."

Etymology
From Latin testiculum, testicle, literally little witness, from testis, witness + diminuitive suffix -ulum
open-dictionary.com...

And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

“Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’

For who has despised the day of small things? For these seven rejoice to see The plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. They are the eyes of the LORD, Which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth.”

For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day

Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever.

Therefore He says: “ Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light.”

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished.

For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!’ But wisdom is justified by her children.”

your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth.

And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.

Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.

the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands



In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace

Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested.

It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion was in labor, She gave birth to her children.

A woman, when she is in labor, has sorrow because her hour has come; but as soon as she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world.

And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.



But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Woe to him who says to wood, ‘Awake!’ To silent stone, ‘Arise! It shall teach!’ Behold, it is overlaid with gold and silver, Yet in it there is no breath at all.

I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.

I heard a loud voice from the throne say, “God lives with humans!

I suppose I could have just posted the entire scriptures

Jesus will return (to judge the living and the dead)

Jesus spoke of a day of unequaled destruction and suffering


In Matthew 24:21-22, Jesus says that there would come a time of unequaled suffering. Many people have offered their opinions about this prophecy, claiming that it has already happened, or that it is happening, or that it will happen in the future. Some opinions involve claims of widespread disease and famine, or terrorism, or nuclear war, etc. And, so, it can be easy to overlook the good news contained in this prophecy: No matter what happens in this world, no matter how bad things get, God ultimately is in control. And, as we learn from other verses, such as John 3:16, no matter what happens, those who believe in Jesus are given the gift of salvation and eternal life with God.
Isaiah 66:7-8
Isaiah prophecied that Israel would become a nation again and that it would happen in one day!
Bible passage: Isaiah 66:7-8
Prophet: Isaiah
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: 1948

In Isaiah 66:7-8, the prophet foreshadowed the re-birth of Israel, which happened "in one day." The woman giving birth before going into labor represent Israel. This accurately describes what happened on May 14, 1948 - when the Jews declared independence for Israel as a united and sovereign nation for the first time in 2,900 years.

During that same day, the United States issued a statement recognizing Israel's sovereignty. And, only hours beforehand, a United Nations mandate expired, ending British control of the land. During a 24-hour span of time, foreign control of the land of Israel had formally ceased, and Israel had declared its independence, and its independence was acknowledged by other nations. Modern Israel was literally was born in a single day.

Isaiah said the birth would take place before there would be labor pains. And that too is precisely what happened. A movement called Zionism began in the 1800s to encourage Jews worldwide to move to Israel, which at that time was called Palestine. Within hours of the declaration of independence in 1948, Israel was attacked by the surrounding countries of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

When reading Isaiah 66:7-8, keep in mind that Israel's status as a sovereign nation was established and reaffirmed during the course of a single day, and that it was born of a movement called Zionism, and that its declaration of independence was not the result of a war but rather the cause of one.

If you have never accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, but have come to realize His reality and the approaching End of the Age, and want to accept His FREE Gift of Eternal Life, you can also do so now, in the privacy of your home. Once you accept Him as Savior, you are spiritually Born Again, and are as assured of Heaven as if you were already there. Then, you can rest assured that the Kingdom of Antichrist will not touch you spiritually.

Gonna throw a theory of mine that I do believe.

This is a topic that is not new. Number 1

I do believe in my Scribe to Scribe theory.

Some books were made by a scribe by one of the apostles, such as peter 2. Perhaps a scribe was writing down what Peter said. Then afterwards, you would have a finish product.

It may become distorted more if more scribes were to copy the original Peter 2 scripture.

This thread is just to place holes in christianity, majority of the holes have been filled by scholars. I respect and enjoy debating with Bert Erhman. He is nothing new on the scene. Ehrman is just a air head

Originally posted by Jordan River
Gonna throw a theory of mine that I do believe.

This is a topic that is not new. Number 1

I do believe in my Scribe to Scribe theory.

Some books were made by a scribe by one of the apostles, such as peter 2. Perhaps a scribe was writing down what Peter said. Then afterwards, you would have a finish product.

It may become distorted more if more scribes were to copy the original Peter 2 scripture.

This thread is just to place holes in christianity, majority of the holes have been filled by scholars. I respect and enjoy debating with Bert Erhman. He is nothing new on the scene. Ehrman is just a air head

You respect him and you call him an air head? Remind me not to earn your respect!

I think that you're on the right track, as regards one of the major issues regarding "transmission error" that EightBits referred to. There is hard evidence to indicate that such errors did occur (generally innocent mistakes made -- it's a lot of work to exactly copy word after word in a world where there is no such thing as a copy machine,) but we also have sufficient "horizontal" coverage (multiple copies of the same generation of a text) to allow us to identify where this translation went wrong, or that translation slipped up.

Recognizing that was one of the reasons that I've adopted my holistic view of the text, as opposed to expecting each and every word to be infallible.