Can the sociopath/psychopath be cured?

Originally posted by apacheman


I think there should be screening for it, and forced removal from areas of responsibility: they CANNOT be trusted, by their very nature, literally. No sociopath should be allowed to run for office or run a corporation, any more than a sexual predator should be allowed to run a daycare.

This hit the nail on the head. I have been championing the argument for psychopathic screening for some time, to anyone who would listen.

These individuals should not be given the chance to gain control of military, governmental or corporation positions of power. We are all, collectively, at greater risk because of it.

You can fix the car but you can't fix the driver.

Originally posted by the.lights

Originally posted by apacheman


I think there should be screening for it, and forced removal from areas of responsibility: they CANNOT be trusted, by their very nature, literally. No sociopath should be allowed to run for office or run a corporation, any more than a sexual predator should be allowed to run a daycare.

This hit the nail on the head. I have been championing the argument for psychopathic screening for some time, to anyone who would listen.

These individuals should not be given the chance to gain control of military, governmental or corporation positions of power. We are all, collectively, at greater risk because of it.

I once thought like this. The truth is that the perfect army general is a psychopath, bar none. The best head of state is highly narcissistic, and public corporate leaders would do best to higher a cerebral narcissist.

Until the system itself is changed, we will inevitably have these kinds of people in these positions.

The system won't be changed until it must, and that won't happen until collapse is already realized.

We're bound by forces out of our control, namely, each other, and nature. The reason for such mass sociopathy is, as already been described in the thread, population density AND the amount of available resources within our estate.

It MUST run it's course, then.

Sad, but true.

Originally posted by DogsDogsDogs

If you suspect you're involved with one of these people, RUN! because you really are running for your very life (whether they might literally kill you or not).

Yeah, I wished someone had given me this advice and information a very long time ago.

If they don't literally kill you, the WILL kill your spirit over time and destroy who you are.

No, I don't believe they can be changed. Even if they seem to want to change, it's a big front, part of the manipulation they play everyone they know with.

Harm None
Peace

reply to post by unityemissions


You actually are not wrong, as long as there is inter group competition, (ie, unless and until humanity does begin acting in a "one species" or "one world" mindset,) groups with sociopathic leaders will have a competitive advantage. But only under certain circumstances.

At this point though, we have long passed the threshold where the advantage is actual. In other words we think we are gaining advantage, in the short run, but our actions in fact are extremely disadvantagous to us in the long run.

Sociopaths are horrible long term strategies. They are only good at taking out the competition. And even then, because they are "self" centered, not "group" centered, they must be watched continually for turning on the group. The problem is we are trying to use them without really have a good plan for how to manage them.

Technically, that means they are NOT the best corporate leaders, and for reasons like you see in many collapsing corporations, they eventually end up gutting the corporation for their own ends. Or the nation. Or the military person ceases to defend and becomes a dictator. They should be eliminated once the competition is eliminated. In times of growth via innovation and building and prosperity and peace, they are the worst possible leaders. Because they have nothing to prey on but their own group.

Plato was ALL over this, thousands of years ago.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by unityemissions

 

You actually are not wrong, as long as there is inter group competition, (ie, unless and until humanity does begin acting in a "one species" or "one world" mindset,) groups with sociopathic leaders will have a competitive advantage. But only under certain circumstances.

At this point though, we have long passed the threshold where the advantage is actual. In other words we think we are gaining advantage, in the short run, but our actions in fact are extremely disadvantagous to us in the long run.

Respectfully, I disagree. Even if they are acting in short term self interest, they are unwittingly doing what's best for the species? How so? They keep us sharp, and bring meaning back to our values. Without their extreme selfishness, and psychopathic acts, our species progression would be stifled, civilization would collapse, and it wouldn't be pretty!

They cause us to reassess the stories we tell each other. Through their chaos the potential for spiritual progression and newer, more complex systems of order may arise. Ultimately, it's up to the whole of our species to realize their game before we're all wiped out, and then the cycle repeats. It happens for a reason, and that is because it must.

When I said they make the best heads of states, I meant within the context of the current situation at hand. I still believe, however evil it seems, that more pressures must be reached to cull our numbers and strengthen the herd. Eventually, there will reach an equilibrium where our strength has been maximized, and their hubris will be their own ending. At least, that's the hope!

reply to post by unityemissions


You are incorrect.

I hear your reasoning, but you are just wrong. If you live in a village, having a serial killer on the loose is not "keeping people sharp."

Game theory and evolutionary modeling show over and over again that if the more cooperative do not actively discriminate AGAINST the "cheaters" or sociopaths, the cooperators get over run every single time. The selective advantage of preying on the cooperative is so high, that its inevitable. Its probably been going on in our society for as long as we have had agriculture, the slow increase of sociopaths as a percentage of the population. And at some point, if society is overrun with them, the whole thing will come crashing down.

Why? Because evolution selected for pro-social behavior first, and anti social behavior can ONLY succeed as a small percentage preying on the successful dominant social strategy.

So no, they dont keep us sharp. We should be hunting them down and killing them out every chance we get. The problem is, cooperators are sometimes loathe to be that brutal.

Edit to add,

A "common sense" example for those who are not familiar with the modeling or research on alturism and cooperation is your body.

Your body is a social group of cells. And if sociopaths arise, we call them cancer. And cancer always destroys the body if not contained, and prevented from spreading, or eliminated. Your body has pro-social " sociopaths" (although since they act on behalf of the group you really cant call them sociopaths) called "immune cells" which are violently aggressive towards anything that harms the body, the group, but which is gentle as a lamb to the good cells.

THAT is what humanity needs, people who can think like a sociopath, behave like one if need be, but whose "center of the universe" is the group, not themselves.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Well were just going to have to agree to disagree.

I think it would be more intellectually honest if you stated, in your opinion, rather than stating these as facts.

Your reasoning is incomplete, because you fail to see the advantages of forced collapse, or suffering in the first place. It's a eugenic process. Without it, we retard. Sometimes ya gotta take a giant leap back to progress!

Game theory can suck it. Scientists can hardly predict what the weather will be like over the next few days with a high degree of accuracy. No way they're using enough variables in the equation.

reply to post by unityemissions


You can disagree all you want and you are still wrong. This really isnt a matter of opinion. There is plenty of work on the topic that is pretty unambiguous.

I personally went into my study of the topic believing "love and altruism" could save us all, and that discriminating against people, any people, and writing them off as not worth keeping was wrong.

It was a bitter pill for me to accept that no, altruism cannot prevail without discrimination, and that sociopaths must be exterminated.

But I do not blind myself to truth simply to hold onto my own wishes or opinions, and, like I said, there is PLENTY of pretty unambiguous research on this.

Originally posted by unityemissions
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

 

Well were just going to have to agree to disagree.

I think it would be more intellectually honest if you stated, in your opinion, rather than stating these as facts.

Your reasoning is incomplete, because you fail to see the advantages of forced collapse, or suffering in the first place. It's a eugenic process. Without it, we retard. Sometimes ya gotta take a giant leap back to progress!

Game theory can suck it. Scientists can hardly predict what the wether will be like over the next few days with a high degree of accuracy. No way they're using enough variables in the equation.

Its not my opinion, either. I actually have been interested in this topic for over 15 years, and there is plenty of research on the topic. Bunches. As I said, this isnt actually the out come I preferred, its just the outcome the data shows.

And if you are going to just pooh pooh science and modeling and math because you like your idea better, I think its more intellectually honest admit you are just being ridiculous.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Well, to be honest, I've lost respect for your opinion on the matter.

It's totally biased and seems to be unreasonable.

reply to post by unityemissions


Oh well. It going to be hard, but I suppose I will have to force myself to carry on in life with your disrespect for me weighing around my neck like a millstone. Im sorry the studies and modeling do not support your argument that sociopaths are good for the group out side the limited scenarios (inter group competition) pointed out earlier.

But they dont. They all show you HAVE to discriminate against them. Game theory is actually just ONE field of study that shows this, obviously, there are others as well with interest in the topic. From microbiology,

www.annualreviews.org...

www.nceas.ucsb.edu...

rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org...

Originally posted by sepermeru
reply to post by mr-lizard

 

I did not compare them at all. In fact, I specifically pointed out how different they are to someone who did. So either you're confusing posters, or you should probably not expect your own contribution to be taken very seriously when it's clear you're not paying attention.

Forgive me, it seems when i pressed quoted, I tried to quote the person you were replying to, and accidently edited that out of the 'reply'. My apologies.

To my recollection, a psychopath (no longer a technical term used in the head shrinking industry) has mental problems that cannot be "cured". This is a "personality" disorder, characterized by an "Axis II" diagnoses; this is on par with retardation. "why?" you may ask... because this cannot be "cured" and its root is unchanged by treatment. Sure, you can slow someone's roll by giving them some serious pharmacuticals, but that does not change the problem. Thats the best I can come up with. Personally, I know SEVERAL sociopaths, these people will never be cured because they do not believe that they have a problem other than those who they feel are against them (everyone). The few who KNOW they have a serious mental problem, frankly, ought to be locked up.

reply to post by Tarnished Templar


Excelent comments. I can tell you from personal experience, I should have been what you are talking about. For my whole life and even the title of my series of books based on my life the catch phrase is ....

“My whole life has been consumed with the question of why I did not turn out to be a serial killer.”

As you see my childhood was a bit wrong in ways for me to even make the statement. It is in your head, just because I feel a way about something, does not mean I should act upon it. That is the difference of my self thoughts and my parents who taught me. That is the brain, that is realizing inside you are in control not someone with the federal death association.

Take care,
Excelent point,
Ainge

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Go back over our posts.

You're not arguing against me, you're arguing against the time, and where we stand in these models.

We're not yet there.

DUH!!

As a "cured," sociopath, I found this discussion to be quite interesting.
I enjoyed and identified with the fight fire with fire comments, similar thoughts have crossed my mind since I filled my void. I even managed to find common ground with the extreme, if slightly ironic, call for our "xenocide." As a consciousness who used to function in that uniquely bewildered, blinded and numbed state, it does make for a perfectly reasonable argument that such apparently dark and awful societal cancer should be eliminated. I personally, and not without an interest in self-preservation at heart, would argue that waiting us out is more advisable, as the human race will most definitely continue for the better following our inevitable extinction from of the gene pool following any number of major positive step in social evolution (The aforementioned one species common denominator could work.) that would make the antisocial personality's function in society unnecessary, and quickly eliminated within a few generations.
Unfortunately there is no cure-all for the emptiness that haunts those with my particular brain chemistry. The urge to reduce boredom and ind pervades even the most controlled of our nice little "subspecies" of vampires, with an especially awful bend towards the morbid in those who seem born with our different perception of reality. But while on the topic of curing this disorder... it can be done with the true and real desire by the individual to tame the bottomless psychological pit driving our consumption.
We genuinely feed off of the normal population, similarly I suppose to vampires, more accurately like a parasite, on both material and emotional levels. Because we are without (natural) empathy, things like suffering and absolute control can fill the void better than any meal fills your belly. The taking of your materials is mostly just because we can when it happens. In any lasting "relationship," we strive to manipulate your identity for our purposes until you barely resemble the marble chunk we pulled out of the quarry anymore. Such hatred is well earned, and we can definitely "help ourselves." We know better, we just don't care.
As far as original discussions about use of psychedelics in curing us:
It may result in me getting banned from the board, but I hope the mods can find it in them to leave it be for discussion's sake. Anecdotal evidence may not be the strongest, but I think you may find some useful insights in a SWIM's (sociopath who isn't me) experience.
This SWIM found them to be... useful, he supposes is the word. They ultimately did assist greatly in bringing about his reform. The first time with "good medicine", and specifically the over-stimulation of novelty centers in the brain, fulfilled his constant crusade against boredom. Given that filling of the void is an ASPD's primary pursuit(it is), it left SWIM floating, sated and amused in a sea of rainbow patterns and warmth, alone and at peace for the first time in his life. As he returned from this unexpected moment of bliss in a world previously filled with nothing, the beautiful patterns coating inside eyelids remained switched on, but milder, dimming slowly for around three weeks. Hasty web research led to a novice diagnosis of HPPD, which he would encourage you to read the wiki on. He did not fit the profile for it perfectly, but he figured that his peculiar brain may somehow be involved in the rapid onset of the condition. The mindset brought about by his state led to finally interesting discussions with the "stupid ******* animals" around him (Yes, that is unfortunately how he used to think of people even those he called 'friends' to their face. He now recognizes the delicious irony of such an erroneous thought.) As he found himself identifying and actually understanding the motivations behind the actions of those around him more and more, his chosen and psychologically reinforced stance as an outsider and user became less attractive. He had, after all, achieved all that he wanted: constant distraction from the emptiness that so consumed every moment he spent alone, and in that stimulation, contentment.
This desire to actually understand the other monkeys led to a planned construction of emotions in his void, and with achieving empathy his purpose. He again immersed himself in a powerful, colorful medicine, this time with intent in mind to begin connecting dots and reorder the his wrong thinking. In short, he succeeded, and reprogrammed his computer.
The result was a new self-determined consciousness, practically slick with exuberance and joy he actually felt.
But three weeks again passed, and he again felt his grasp on empathy begin to fade as the lights in his eyelids died. In desperation, he again reached out to his medicine, and found his construct renewed upon his exit from the other realities.
With continued similar treatment against his nature, his emptiness and the urges to fill it with human pain remain gone.

My English is not very good. sorry for that.

For last few mounths I'have realize that I'm an (socio)psichophat. (check list, houndreds of articles on the net, ect.) I always think that I am hiperemotian :I

The main reason for realise this is my whole life in shadow, fear, without self esteem, jelous, manipulative becouse I dont have my integritet, with the mask of charming and very clever and strange man, or in euphoria with high egoistic episodes, lying, some of stealing, drinking, mariuana,party, mastrubation, sex,sex,sex ect.

Whole time projects without much success. (music, university, dance, yoga, swimmin)

In my childhood was a lot of trauma. I had a fear of the all-male peer. They were bulyng me. (pussy ect.) and physical abuse. I never told to my parrents, becouse I was thinking that tey will think that a am pussy. I hated myself. And I hate myself today. My granfa was alcoholic and schizophrenia. He was very sick. He was treated me very verbaly bad.

In my childhood I was thinking that I must be perfect. I was very unlike myself.

Before one year i started explore my self through levels of personality. Never before I suspect for this dyagnosis. But for me, now everything is clear. 99.999 % (I have very high IQ 140

It is said that the psychopaths and sociopaths

Same thing. Sociopath is the outdated term for psychopath. And no, cannot be cured.