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A case for chemtrails?

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posted on Apr, 4 2011 @ 11:15 PM
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reply to post by firepilot
 


That alst bit is obsolete now - Uncinus does not hide his identity - his name is on there, as is his photo.

Not quite an anonymouse govt shill ......




posted on Apr, 5 2011 @ 10:54 AM
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reply to post by tsurfer2000h
 


Thanks for the link it was easy to read and really dumbed down but my post is from a scientific experiment carried out in 1995 and has more information than the link you posted me.
also it states that the saturation level must be at 100% and not the 70 % that is often posted here.
If a jet was only producing water without the aerosol then you would not get a contrail.



posted on Apr, 5 2011 @ 12:06 PM
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Originally posted by MathiasAndrew

The fuel additives are used for increasing cloud albedo SRM.



Sorry, wrong type of clouds. For that they need to be low level stratocumulus.

Anyway, I thought you were saying chemtrails are sprayed in the ionosphere, tens of miles above where even the very highest clouds form?

Do make up your mind



posted on Apr, 5 2011 @ 12:10 PM
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reply to post by djcarlosa
 


Have you posted a link to the paper so that we can read it?

Only given the technica nature of such things (I don't understand most of them!) it's easy to misunderstand what is being reported and/or misquote out of context. I'm guessing the paper concerned a particular study and was not referring to contrails as a whole.



posted on Apr, 5 2011 @ 12:20 PM
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reply to post by Essan
 


I have sent you the link via message the experiment in question was contrail's to cirrus clouds time spans and conditions happy reading
nothing I have posted from this report has been taken out of context and I have been studying this paper for 6 weeks and I do understand what is in the report which is why I have begun posting from it
edit on 5-4-2011 by djcarlosa because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2011 @ 12:39 PM
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reply to post by djcarlosa
 


Cheers


I'll have a good read of it later



posted on Apr, 5 2011 @ 11:47 PM
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dj, I appreciate and understand your concern for your family and for our environment because of what you perceive to be "chemtrails" and sincerely feel and believe that they are causing you and them harm.

However, I do not understand your reluctance to post citations to authority until you have had a chance to better understand them. Shouldn't you withhold any reference at all until you understand them or have an opportunity to discuss them with someone who does?

Posting your interpretation before or without a better understanding, is only asking for criticism.

You are also going to face a challenge that you have deliberately misrepresented these articles and even the potential for a charge of plagiarism if you quote certain passages without attribution.

Let me point out some examples in your posts concerning ice nucleation at upper-tropospheric levels.


Originally posted by djcarlosa
 
I have looked at a paper which was on a experiment done in 1995 which states that contrail's will become cirrus clouds after an hour and as another report here has stated that it would take many contrail's to create a visual cirrus cloud so my question to you is how can one plane create a cirrus cloud all by itself that lasts for 6 hours which has been disproved by a report your side has used to debunk us.


First, your "source" does not state a specific time period for cirrus formation from contrails. As has long been established, contrails are cirrus clouds, by definition. Nor is there any specific limitation on the time for persistence - they have been observed by satellites to persist as long as 17 hours - it is a matter of circumstances and conditions.


Also I would like to point out that one of the main factors that effect how long a contrail can last is the aerosol content produced by the plane's engines as these liquid volatile aerosols (mainly composed of H2SO4/H2O), leads to the nucleation of ice crystals so it would follow that in order for a contrail to persist for over 2 hours the aerosol content must be greatly increased.


Here, you have confused the papers' observations of natural cirrus and wave clouds as compared to jet-engine contrails, and the conditions for their formation.

Almost all studies of cirrus have recognized that the major cause of ice crystal (cirrus) formation is the presence of naturally occurring sulfuric acid/water solutions suspended in supercooled air. They have also examined black soot, dust and organics as substrates for ice crystal nucleation.

No papers, including your source, state that jet engines must increase aerosols beyond the normal the products of combustion for contrail formation or persistence! NOT ONE. These studies clearly state that the most important factors in this regard are air temperature and relative humidity, NOT the composition of the vapors subjected to them.

Again, if you'd taken the time to consider the premises and conclusions of these papers, you would know that they focused on conditions for natural cirrus formation, taking into consideration contrail and "orographic wave cloud" formation as well. None of them, going back to the 1950s and extending to the present, discuss the necessity for adding to the processes that ordinarily cause these cloud formations.

Maybe you didn't even stop to think WHY they performed these studies to begin with? To better understand clouds and how they interact with climate!


Originally posted by djcarlosa
 
... my post is from a scientific experiment carried out in 1995 and has more information than the link you posted me. also it states that the saturation level must be at 100% and not the 70 % that is often posted here.


That is completely false!

Even your "source" recognized in 1995, with limited capabilities and scope, that the effective humidity ranged from super-saturation, to water-saturation (100%RH) to 66%RH, all dependent upon temperature, not the composition of the nuclei.

An expression is given for the peak RH with respect to water in the wave clouds (RHhn), which decreases from 100% above −39°C to 73% at −56°C; RHhn represents the condition required for ice nucleation in the wave clouds and is shown to be more consistent with the homogeneous freezing of sulfuric acid solution droplets than ammonium sulfate solution droplets.
Aircraft measurements made in cirrus during FIRE II show highly ice-supersaturated regions in clear air, placing a lower bound on the RH required for cirrus formation approximately equal to (RHhn–10)%.
(73%RH - (10%) = 66%RH)

journals.ametsoc.org...


If a jet was only producing water without the aerosol then you would not get a contrail.


Jet engines DO NOT "only produce water!" They emit the ordinary products of hydrocarbon fuel combustion; that is all it takes for ice crystal nucleation at the temperature and humidity ranges studied.

Also worth noting, is that some of these studies go back to the 1950s, '60s, '70s and '80s; long before the "chemtrails" hysteria began.

More importantly, NOT ONE the the dozens of studies of cirrus and contrails even so much as mentions "chemtrail" or any ill effects on people or the environment!

So, I have to ask: "Did you just not understand, or were you deliberately misrepresenting the reports?"

If you want to see the follow-up study to yours, and the dozens of others since then that DO NOT REPORT "CHEMTRAILS," check these sources:

Relative Humidity and Temperature Influences on Cirrus Formation and Evolution (your source and 48 recent cites to it)

ICE NUCLEATION - A REVIEW

Ice Formation Processes in Upper Tropospheric Conditions

And, your "source"'s own follow-up, which found they underestimated the lower humidity bounds!
Upper-tropospheric relative humidity observations and implications for cirrus ice nucleation

You might want to look at the programs that produced the data for these studies:

SUCCESS (the "Subsonic aircraft: Contrail and Cloud Effects Special Study" experiment)
FIRE-II (the “First ISCCP Research Experiment, Phase II”)

deny ignorance
jw
edit on 5-4-2011 by jdub297 because: closed quote



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 07:12 AM
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reply to post by jdub297
 


point 1 if you read what I wrote properly I stated that if a jet only produced water there would be no contrail not that a jet produced only water the point being that without the aerosol there can not be a contrail.
secondly how you can say that contrail's are cirrus clouds as soon as they are produced is wrong because the ice particle size and numbers is far more dense than in a cloud and you have to wait 1 hour before the particles have decreased in no's before they become the same as a cirrus cloud.
secondly I do not believe I have ever given you my source of information so how can you comment on a paper if you've never read it unless of course that information was passed on to you by a third party and if that is the case then it says to me that alas none can be trusted.
Also I would like to point out that this experiment states that a contrail is hard to follow after an hour as it becomes so thin it hard to spot whereas the contrails we see here everyday are clearly visible for over 6 hours so why the increase my point is still valid here in that if you need aerosol to create nucleation for ice particles to form then if you want them to persist then would it not follow that this would need more aerosol's to create more ice particles.
quote;However, I do not understand your reluctance to post citations to authority until you have had a chance to better understand them.
so are you saying you are an authority figure ?
edit on 6-4-2011 by djcarlosa because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 08:30 AM
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reply to post by djcarlosa
 


Just for the record, I've not said to anyone what paper it is you are reading.

However, I don't think it's fair to argue points based on a scientific paper unless everyone else is aware of what you're reading. I will desist therefore from commenting at this time and wait till you've finished reading and digesting it all



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 09:15 AM
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reply to post by Essan
 


if you have read through that paper i have another one i'm working through as well
www.atmos-chem-phys-discuss.net...
curry.eas.gatech.edu...
edit on 6-4-2011 by djcarlosa because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 04:18 PM
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Originally posted by djcarlosa
reply to post by jdub297
 


point 1 if you read what I wrote properly I stated that if a jet only produced water there would be no contrail not that a jet produced only water the point being that without the aerosol there can not be a contrail.


"Aerosol" is particles suspended in air, all jet exhaust is aerosol. What do you think jet exhaust is? Every one of the studies I've cited, including yours, includes at least a passing reference to the composition of jet fuel combustion exhaust AS MEASURED IN REAL TIME! All are "aerosols."


secondly how you can say that contrail's are cirrus clouds as soon as they are produced is wrong because the ice particle size and numbers is far more dense than in a cloud and you have to wait 1 hour before the particles have decreased in no's before they become the same as a cirrus cloud.


Nope. As soon as the aerosols of jet exhaust meets appropriate temps and RH (relative humidity), the nuclei initiate ice crystal formation = cirrus cloud.
Again these studies note that natural cirrus generally have three layers, the lowest is sublimating and evaporating, the middle is persistent and the top is supersaturated and propagating if conditions persist.


secondly I do not believe I have ever given you my source of information so how can you comment on a paper if you've never read it


I have not only read it, I have subscribed to the Journal. I've read the authors' 1996 and 1998 follow-ups as well. I've read others who have cited it as a "source" even within the last couple of years.
Did you think you are the only person on ATS who knows or learns about ice crystal nucleation? In "chemtrail" v. contrail discussions?

Why don't you quote the relevant passages if you think you are able to paraphrase them?


unless of course that information was passed on to you by a third party and if that is the case then it says to me that alas none can be trusted.


"In that case" you are extremely paranoid and possessive. What did you think people would do when you post things that are not your own words? All anyone (ask Mathias) has to do is post a few key words or phrases like "H2SO4/H2O," "ice nuclei," "1995," and "contrail," and voila: dozens of studies pop up of contrail formation and the conditions for ice nuclei to form in cirrus. It might take a little tweaking, and fine-tuning, but even Mat can do this.

If you want help understanding the article, just ask. The parts I've quoted pretty much establish that you either did not or purposely chose to misrepresent the findings about RH and temps and contrails/cirrus.


Also I would like to point out that this experiment states that a contrail is hard to follow after an hour as it becomes so thin it hard to spot whereas the contrails we see here everyday are clearly visible for over 6 hours so why the increase


It says no such thing. In fact the same institutions that sponsored your "source", with other participants has documented contrails that last 17 hours!:

Contrail cirrus initially form behind cruising aircraft as line-shaped contrails and transform into cirrus-like clouds or cloud clusters in favourable meteorological conditions, occasionally covering large horizontal areas. They have been tracked for up to 17 h in satellite observations. They remain line-shaped, and therefore easily distinguishable from natural cirrus, for only a fraction of their lifetime. The impact of aircraft soot emissions on cirrus in the absence of contrails depends on the ice-nucleating properties and the ice-active number concentration of soot-particle emissions.

www.nature.com...

Funny, I posted this article in a new thread this past weekend, why didn't you read it?
Dangerous contrails


my point is still valid here


No, you cited the article as saying cirrus/contrails required 100% RH, when they found them forming down to 66%.


if you need aerosol to create nucleation for ice particles to form then if you want them to persist then would it not follow that this would need more aerosol's to create more ice particles.


You need three things for "more ice particles:" a catalyst for nucleation (e.g., normal jet exhaust), the correct temperature range, and the appropriate amount of water already in the air (from 66% RH to "supersaturation" in these studies). Persistence and spreading are a function of these three elements.



;However, I do not understand your reluctance to post citations to authority until you have had a chance to better understand them.

so are you saying you are an authority figure ?


Not by any means. I know how to read and interpret scientific reports, though. And, I especially know how to accurately report findings with appropriate citations to an "authority figure."

Unfortunately, the best "authority figure" I've seen for "chemtrail" believers are YouTube or Wikipedia links.

deny ignorance
jw
edit on 6-4-2011 by jdub297 because: closed quote



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by djcarlosa
reply to post by Essan
 


if you have read through that paper i have another one i'm working through as well
www.atmos-chem-phys-discuss.net...
curry.eas.gatech.edu...
edit on 6-4-2011 by djcarlosa because: (no reason given)


How Funny! Both of these cite your 'secret source!'

AND, they go all the way back to the '50s for discussion of cirrus/contrails. AND, AND absolutely NO MENTION whatsoever, of "chemtrails!"

You finally find good science in the study of cirrus and contrails, and none of them even so much as mention "chemtrails."


Don't you wonder why?

jw



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 07:18 PM
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reply to post by djcarlosa
 

if you want them to persist then would it not follow that this would need more aerosol's to create more ice particles.


No, and even an elementary-school children's experiment proves this. You do not need a continuous introduction of nuclei once you have initiated crystallization.

Have you never grown crystals? Have you never seen or heard of experiments using supersaturated solutions and the introduction of a single "nucleus" to "grow" crystals? Hell, you can buy a kit for this at most toy/science stores; when I was a kid, they called it "Magic Rocks."

Despite the toy's name, dj, this is not magic. Once a supersaturated environment is "tripped" by the introduction of appropriate nuclei, the crystallization process can continue without the need for any new stimulus for so long as conditions permit.

Look it up.

jw



posted on Apr, 7 2011 @ 05:27 AM
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reply to post by jdub297
 


1.have i used the word chemtrail's in this thread once no
2.have i said the papers where on chemtrail's no
3.Have i posted about contrail's and how they are formed conditions and key elements yes
in fact i have dropped the use of chemtrail's until it becomes proven instead i have taken the time to get educated on contrail's and how they are formed and everything i have posted is from those papers because i was told to get educated and that is what i have done.
i still have an open mind and the ability to question what i see and what i know with the premise that i maybe wrong.
essan even though we sit on opposite sides of this debate we treat each other with respect which is more than i can say about you.
I think that it is bad that you can attack me when i'm trying so hard to prove my point by using sources that are not vids from u-tube.
So your attempts to make me look stupid are really counter productive and its people like you that pushes me back of the fence so to speak therefore i will no longer be wasting my time in replying to you.
As a side note the paper's you are quoting to me are not the paper i am reading and again its interesting that someone who is such an expert on this has the time to waste disproving what most think is a hoax this is not the action's of an intelligent person why not put that expertise to a better use for mankind.
After all if people like you stood up and said these contrail's are damaging our environment perhaps they would do something about it.

edit on 7-4-2011 by djcarlosa because: (no reason given)
edit on 7-4-2011 by djcarlosa because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 7 2011 @ 02:21 PM
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reply to post by djcarlosa
 
First, I never said that you linked the contrail studies to "chemtrails."

You seem to be the only one "on the other side of the fence" who actually reads and tries to understand the science, so I simply pointed out that none of the 50+ years of cirrus and contrail studies ever once so much as mentions "chemtrails." If anything, that should at least keep you "on" the fence, if not well over onto the other side.

I do fault you for stating things that are not in the reports, but which you seem to have interpreted them to say.
Post a quote, and let's look at it objectively.

See, I think the real problem here is a matter of sincerity versus objectivity.

I am certain that many people are very sincere in their belief and their intuition and their suspicion that airplanes are harming them, their families and our world. I don't fault anyone for sincerely held beliefs; that is what faith and religion depend upon - there is no "proof" of a Creator or Supreme Being, many of us just "know it is so."

The real problem is when people try to color their faith with objectivity. The beautiful thing about the most devout people is their complete rejection of objectivity - they don't have to prove their God for non-believers; their faith alone is sufficient for them.. When the faithful or devout become crusaders, they demand others accept their beliefs without proof as well. That is where the clashes arise.

When advocates try to clothe their faith with objectivity, they become defensive, and sometimes cruel, to those who show that objective consideration of the facts doesn't support what they offer.

In a different thread, someone stitched in a fake post from a scientist and offered "leading questions" to him to support their belief.
I posed a series of "yes, no, explain" questions that would allow the scientist to state his own position rather than assuming anything he would say in advance.

See the difference?

Posting clip after clip and trying to weave a thread into a blanket only offers opportunities to unravel the threads.

State a hypothesis, offer your support, then step back and test it. That is science. Most hypotheses are disproved. Some are incapable of proof. Those that withstand falsification stand as planks upon which we can build a theory.
Taking dozens of possible pieces and throwing them together will never help complete the puzzle.

You are consciously trying to find the basic information that will enable you to state your hypothesis. You do not need to color the facts with your belief. The facts will speak for themselves, and once you have gathered enough, you will know what you need to know. There may not be answers in them for your beliefs, but at least you know not to try to make them appear to.


After all if people like you stood up and said these contrail's are damaging our environment perhaps they would do something about it.


Did you read my thread? Did you read the posts?
Some people welcomed such an admission that the real boogeyman is right in front of us, and that we can face him down.

Others, chose to dismiss the truth and to continue to look for the "real" boogeyman of their faith, against whom we are helpless.

I do not understand why people are so eager to ignore obvious threats in favor of ephemeral ones, but that is human nature.

If you do not believe you ever can win, it is best to show that the game is unwinnable, no?

jw



posted on Apr, 19 2011 @ 06:16 AM
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reply to post by jdub297
 



In a different thread, someone stitched in a fake post from a scientist and offered "leading questions" to him to support their belief. I posed a series of "yes, no, explain" questions that would allow the scientist to state his own position rather than assuming anything he would say in advance.


The only thing fake around here are your statements and conclusions.

Why don't you post something besides your same old opinions that have already been proven to be wrong.






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