A case for chemtrails?

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posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 05:15 PM
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Alright I should start by saying I don't generally have an opinion about chemtrails, I don't doubt their existance though.

We just had a large sudden hailstorm, and being the geek I am, I figured I would check wikipedia about hail. At the bottom of that page it mentioned how Russians had supposedly used cloud seeding to suppress hail and hailstorms and had supposedly had some success in doing so.

My interest piqued I followed the cloud seeding link which had a link about the chemtrail conspiracy theory. I read through it although most information contained I was already aware of.

At the bottom of the page it had several related links...

Operation Dew

Operation Dew was a military experiment that involved releasing aerosol agents from a minesweeper off the coast of Georgia. Operation Dew II was a military experiment that involved releasing agents and spores from a plane.

Operation LAC

Operation LAC was a military experiment that involved releasing zinc cadmium sulfide over most of the United States by plane.

Operation Ranch Hand

Operation Ranch Hand was the US military program that dumped huge amounts of chemicals over Vietnam including Agent Orange

Aren't these the definition of what people to consider to be chemtrails? The assertation now is that chemtrails do not exist and have never existed. If these operations are what would be considered the release of chemtrails, then does that boslter the claim that chemtrails are real not not simply contrails? And if the government engaged in chemtrail experiments as far back as the 50's, is it likely that they are still engaging in those types of experiments?




posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 07:58 PM
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Check out this video, it suggests the use of aluminum barium.


www.youtube.com...



edit on 27-3-2011 by Tygart because: (no reason given)
edit on 27-3-2011 by Tygart because: Fixed Video



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 08:26 PM
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possible reasons for chemtrails:
1) to geo-engineer the planet (weather manipulation)
2) to form a mild shield to protect us from future solar radiation
3) to create a sky screen to facilitate Project Blue Beam
4) to spray chemicals on the humans (population sedation and/or reduction)
edit on 27-3-2011 by CosmicCitizen because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 08:52 PM
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reply to post by ThaLoccster
 


NO!!

Once again, the same junk pseud-science, and non-associated cases in history being MISINTERPRETED!!

"Operation LAC"!! READ it again. You wrote it was a program to release over "most" of the United States.

It DOESN'T say that, in the article!! Reading comprehension 101, please.

Also, with ALL of those cited....look at the dates, and pay particular attention to the details, and methods.

NONE have anything to do, nor relevance, to the modern era.

It is ignorant to suggest otherwise. AND, your links are clearly showing that, to people who bother to actually read them completely.



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 08:57 PM
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reply to post by Tygart
 



That video has been debunked in numerous other threads, already.

The initial premise, as stated at the outset is IMPOSSIBLE!!

It proposes a "plan" to include aluminum in Jet Fuel! Cannot occur. This has been covered at great length, in other ATS threads already.

But, to make it short, consider this comparison:

Try to do the same thing to your car. Dump a load of aluminum dust, or whatever, into your fuel tank. See how "effective" that will be, huh?

(BTW.....ever heard of that old trick to play on your enemies? SUGAR in the gas tank? VERY effective way to destroy an engine. So, think carefully before attempting any "experiments" like the one I facetiously suggested, above.....).



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 09:36 PM
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Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by ThaLoccster
 


NO!!

Once again, the same junk pseud-science, and non-associated cases in history being MISINTERPRETED!!


Calm down, thats why I made the thread, to ask questions and further my and maybe others understanding of the topic.


"Operation LAC"!! READ it again. You wrote it was a program to release over "most" of the United States.

It DOESN'T say that, in the article!! Reading comprehension 101, please.


Once again man, calm down and I apologize. It doesn't say most, it says much. At best I'm guilty of incorrect grammar. The overall point is still valid. I tried to edit it to say much, but It says the 4 hour time limit to edit my post has passed.


Also, with ALL of those cited....look at the dates, and pay particular attention to the details, and methods.

NONE have anything to do, nor relevance, to the modern era.


I thought that was the most curious of all, the dates that is. Like I said, as far back as the 50's they have been doing various experiments involving the dispersal of chemicals by plane over various parts of the United States, and other areas as well. There were wide range of tests, many of which I'm sure are still classified. The Operation LAC report was classified until the 90's and that was seemingly harmless.


It is ignorant to suggest otherwise. AND, your links are clearly showing that, to people who bother to actually read them completely.


I really did not intend to suggest anything, but to ask questions. Some of these experiments do involve the high altitude release of chemicals, the core idea of what people say chemtrails are. I'm not trying to say that crop dusting is proof that chemtrails are real.

In an incident at the Dugway Proving Grounds in the 60's, a fighter jet released VX nerve agent which was blamed for the deaths of around 600 sheep.

Reports like that and the earlier ones, coupled with government secrecy, for me, only enforce the possibility that today there are actively various tests involving the release of chemicals of some sort into the air by plane.

If you don't believe that to be the case thats fine, but I think you need a better argument than that I can't read. Especially when what I didn't read seems to mesh with what I'm saying.
edit on 3/27/2011 by ThaLoccster because: typo
edit on 3/27/2011 by ThaLoccster because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 09:37 PM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 


My First Chemtrail Video: CT's in the PR Twilight
best viewed full screen explanation on my YT channel




OP i'd be happy to discuss my own CT-conspiracy theory but the usual suspects have arrived and are in a frenzy since i announced that i was going to post a thread on the contrail-conspiracy*

consider this a sneak preview

* not a mistype



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 09:41 PM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 


Chadwickus has posted that aluminum and metals, and organics have been found

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 09:51 PM
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Originally posted by ThaLoccster
Operation Dew

Operation Dew was a military experiment that involved releasing aerosol agents from a minesweeper off the coast of Georgia. Operation Dew II was a military experiment that involved releasing agents and spores from a plane.

Operation LAC

Operation LAC was a military experiment that involved releasing zinc cadmium sulfide over most of the United States by plane.

Operation Ranch Hand

Operation Ranch Hand was the US military program that dumped huge amounts of chemicals over Vietnam including Agent Orange

Aren't these the definition of what people to consider to be chemtrails?


not that I'm aware of.

For starters the chemtrail theory is about aircraft that fly at high altitude.

Secondly there is no evidence for it. With all of those operations yuo listed yuo could go out & take a sample and test it and see what it was. No-one has been able to do so with chemtrails.



If these operations are what would be considered the release of chemtrails, then does that boslter the claim that chemtrails are real not not simply contrails?


since htese operations are not what people consider chemtrails the point is moot.

Indeed how about the opposite? Since these are not chemtrails, they are evidence that chemtrails do not exist?



And if the government engaged in chemtrail experiments as far back as the 50's, is it likely that they are still engaging in those types of experiments?


It is neither more nor less likely because of what they did way back then - the 2 are simply not connected.

That is to say IF they are doing somethign now, it is not BECAUSE they did something then.



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 11:09 PM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 


Question:

Must it be dispersed though the Fuel??? That is not how I would do it, and I don't think that is how they would do it.

I guess I should look at the video again, I might have missed something. ;-)



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 11:39 PM
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Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by ThaLoccster
 


Also, with ALL of those cited....look at the dates, and pay particular attention to the details, and methods.

NONE have anything to do, nor relevance, to the modern era.

It is ignorant to suggest otherwise. AND, your links are clearly showing that, to people who bother to actually read them completely.


Are you suggesting that in our modern era, the government and its entities would not experiment on the people?
They have , and according to recent news reports, it could very well happen again. www.aolnews.com...
www.naturalnews.com...
That is about unethical medical experiments funded by the US government, I could easily see how it could spill over onto the military side, especially since it has happened in the past.



posted on Mar, 28 2011 @ 09:57 AM
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Originally posted by Tygart
reply to post by weedwhacker
 


Question:

Must it be dispersed though the Fuel??? That is not how I would do it, and I don't think that is how they would do it.


No, it wouldn't have to be. But, since the chemtrail theory resides around long lasting, visible contrails, and the only visible thing comes straight from the engine 99% of the time (the other 1% being wingtip and other aerodynamically generated effects, none of which persist).

As such, it does need to be in the fuel if it were there.



posted on Mar, 28 2011 @ 05:05 PM
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reply to post by Tygart
 



Must it be dispersed though the Fuel??? That is not how I would do it, and I don't think that is how they would do it.


We need to back up, firstly.

What is being dispersed, through the fuel? SAME that has been happening ever since fossil fuels were invented to be burned in internal combustion engines.

It is chemistry. The heat of combustion breaks down the molecules that make up the petrochemical fuels....and those molecules (elements) re-combine, according to the various tendencies of the material being discussed.

For OUR purposes, here....what have been hand-waved hysterically, and called "chem"-trails, are nothing BUT water vapor. (FROZEN, actually...so, ice crystals, to be more accurate).

Backing up, as I started this....to basics. A "down to earth" example. Have you ever noticed that water will sometimes form in the exhaust pipe of your car? Surely, people have all seen this, before? The chemistry at work there is not much different than with jet turbine engines. HEAT, that is common to both. The fuels are slightly different, in make-up, but at their most basic, they are STILL petroleum-based.

HYDROCARBONS. Emphasis on the "hydro", there. Short for "hydrogen".

What is water composed of? Well....H2O of course. Hydrogen atoms (2) and an oxygen atom, chemically (atomically) bonded together. THAT resulting molecule we know as common water. Hydrogen, and oxygen, BY THEMSELVES are a gas, at room temperature, correct? Isn't it interesting how so very, very different they "are" when combined? NOW, they are a commonplace liquid, at room temp.

SO....in your car tailpipe, or out the jet turbine engine exhaust, the WATER comes from the same place. The hydrogen is supplied by the fuel (broken out from its more complex molecular form, within the fuel) and the oxygen of course, is in the air that is being used to oxidize ("oxidize" = oxygen, get it?) the combustion process.

Of course, there are also AMBIENT amounts and varying quantities of water vapor also present in air, most of the time. "Varying", because conditions are always different, as the atmosphere is not homogeneous. BOTH the quantity (expressed as "Relative Humidity") and the temperature play roles in aircraft engine CON ("CON" is short for "condensation") trail formation. Both "if", and "how big" and "what shape" and "how persistent" they will be....they VARY in appearances, accordingly. Just as clouds do.....

....because, contrails are nothing other than clouds!! At the very, most basic nuts and bolts of them....CIRRUS clouds, in fact is what they most resemble in make-up. Because they consist of frozen ice particles.

The only "chem" aspect to them is the normal, everyday, and unavoidable pollutants (the other byproducts of burning petroleum fuels) .... the same sorts of "chem" and pollutants that are present in your CAR exhaust, too. (Getting back to the car, again.

All the rest of this "chem-trail" baloney?? SO much ignorant nonsense.



posted on Mar, 31 2011 @ 12:40 AM
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Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Tygart
 



Must it be dispersed though the Fuel??? That is not how I would do it, and I don't think that is how they would do it.


We need to back up, firstly.

What is being dispersed, through the fuel? SAME that has been happening ever since fossil fuels were invented to be burned in internal combustion engines.

It is chemistry. The heat of combustion breaks down the molecules that make up the petrochemical fuels....and those molecules (elements) re-combine, according to the various tendencies of the material being discussed.

For OUR purposes, here....what have been hand-waved hysterically, and called "chem"-trails, are nothing BUT water vapor. (FROZEN, actually...so, ice crystals, to be more accurate).

Backing up, as I started this....to basics. A "down to earth" example. Have you ever noticed that water will sometimes form in the exhaust pipe of your car? Surely, people have all seen this, before? The chemistry at work there is not much different than with jet turbine engines. HEAT, that is common to both. The fuels are slightly different, in make-up, but at their most basic, they are STILL petroleum-based.

HYDROCARBONS. Emphasis on the "hydro", there. Short for "hydrogen".

What is water composed of? Well....H2O of course. Hydrogen atoms (2) and an oxygen atom, chemically (atomically) bonded together. THAT resulting molecule we know as common water. Hydrogen, and oxygen, BY THEMSELVES are a gas, at room temperature, correct? Isn't it interesting how so very, very different they "are" when combined? NOW, they are a commonplace liquid, at room temp.

SO....in your car tailpipe, or out the jet turbine engine exhaust, the WATER comes from the same place. The hydrogen is supplied by the fuel (broken out from its more complex molecular form, within the fuel) and the oxygen of course, is in the air that is being used to oxidize ("oxidize" = oxygen, get it?) the combustion process.

Of course, there are also AMBIENT amounts and varying quantities of water vapor also present in air, most of the time. "Varying", because conditions are always different, as the atmosphere is not homogeneous. BOTH the quantity (expressed as "Relative Humidity") and the temperature play roles in aircraft engine CON ("CON" is short for "condensation") trail formation. Both "if", and "how big" and "what shape" and "how persistent" they will be....they VARY in appearances, accordingly. Just as clouds do.....

....because, contrails are nothing other than clouds!! At the very, most basic nuts and bolts of them....CIRRUS clouds, in fact is what they most resemble in make-up. Because they consist of frozen ice particles.

The only "chem" aspect to them is the normal, everyday, and unavoidable pollutants (the other byproducts of burning petroleum fuels) .... the same sorts of "chem" and pollutants that are present in your CAR exhaust, too. (Getting back to the car, again.

All the rest of this "chem-trail" baloney?? SO much ignorant nonsense.





You don't see it? Your kidding rignt?

Why do they keep making all the cross patterns, for the fun of it. I don't think you really know the cost to fly a jet.

Do con trails create clouds?

There is reports of an in crease of aluminum in our soil and water. Have you heard anything about this?
edit on 31-3-2011 by Tygart because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 31 2011 @ 01:02 PM
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reply to post by Tygart
 



Why do they keep making all the cross patterns, for the fun of it.


What? You don't understand that airplanes fly in all directions, from place to place?? Why do roads and highways have intersections, huh? Think about it. Look at any airline Route Map. Or, better yet, see it in video action:

Just ONE AIRLINE (FedEx) in only 24 hours -- just in the USA "lower 48" --



Another, pulling back and seen from higher, from satellite heights, seeing more real estate -- ALL flights:



This one made to show the complexities of the Air Traffic Control system, in the USA:



Got it, yet?????




I don't think you really know the cost to fly a jet.


NO, of course not..


Except, I have flown airplanes for nearly forty years....almost 24 at a MAJOR US airline. So, no I guess I don't know anything......



Do con trails create clouds?


Yes, actually. Contrails are clouds. Indistuingishable from normal cirrus, in make up. Only their initial shapes are "artificial", because they aren't formed "naturally". (Meaning, by Nature and natural atmospheric processes).



There is reports of an in crease of aluminum in our soil and water.


And, any and ALL of those "reports" draw false conclusions. Aluminum contamination is the result of GROUND-BASED sources, mostly. YOU might even be part of it....depending on what kind of underarm antiperspirant you use. Take a look at the ingredients list. SOME are "all natural", because of fears of aluminum in our body products and cosmetics.


Here, read this to find out the REAL reason for aluminum in our environment:

www.istc.illinois.edu...


"Another source of air emissions from primary aluminum production processes occurs during the reduction of aluminum oxide to aluminum metal. Hydrogen fluoride gases and particulates, fluorides, alumina, carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide and volatile organics are produced. Electrolytic baths often use anode pastes in the cell. The paste must be continually fed into the cell through a steel sheet with an opening. This continual feed allows the gas to escape."


edit on 31 March 2011 by weedwhacker because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2011 @ 04:37 AM
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Don't believe the disinfo people. Trust your instincts and your own eyes.

www.patentstorm.us...

oai.dtic.mil...



Accession Number : ADD003645

Title : Aluminum Soap Demisting Agent in Jet Fuel.

Descriptive Note : Patent,

Corporate Author : DEPARTMENT OF THE NAVY WASHINGTON D C

Personal Author(s) : Adicoff,Arnold

Report Date : 30 NOV 1976

Pagination or Media Count : 2

Abstract : Compositions of matter comprising a mixture of a jet fuel and an aluminum di-acid soap of a saturated carboxylic acid having from 8 to 20 carbon atoms are disclosed. The compositions of matter are useful as fuels for jet aircraft. (Author)

Descriptors : *Patents, *Aluminum soaps, *Fuel additives, *Jet engine fuels, Saturated hydrocarbons, Carboxylic acids, Chemical composition, Mixtures

Subject Categories : FUELS

Distribution Statement : APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE



Belfort Group - CASE ORANGE REPORT
saive.com...

United States Government Accountability Office
www.gao.gov...

Geoengineering Cost Analysis Final Report Prepared Under Contract
people.ucalgary.ca...

Rosalind Peterson: The GeoEngineering Cover-Up



FULL DOCUMENTARY : www.youtube.com...
edit on 1-4-2011 by MathiasAndrew because: add text



posted on Apr, 1 2011 @ 05:13 AM
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www.freepatentsonline.com...

BARIUM RELEASE SYSTEM
United States Patent 3751913



ORIGIN OF THE DISCLOSURE

The invention described herein was made in the performance of work under a NASA contract and is subject to the provisions of section 305 of the National Aeronautics and Space Act of 1958, Public Law 85-568 (72 Stat. 435; 42 USC 2457).

This invention relates generally to a chemical release system and relates in particular to a system for releasing barium in the vapor phase so that it can be ionized by solar radiation and also be excited to emit resonance radiation in the visible range. The ionized luminous cloud of barium then becomes a visible indication of magnetic and electric characteristics in space and allows determination of these properties over relatively large areas of space at a given time compared to rocket borne or orbiting instruments. For example, a geomagnetic field line could be illuminated by the present invention from pole-to-pole.

Presently, barium release systems are used to create ion clouds in the upper atmosphere for the study of geophysical properties of the atmosphere. These known systems utilize a solid chemical system using a thermite mixture of barium and copper oxide as the heat-producing reaction and an excess of barium to be vaporized. This system is launched by a suitable rocket and, at a predetermined time, the ingredients are ignited and released from a canister through a burst diaphragm and nozzle. The resulting barium cloud gives a brilliant color that can be observed and studied from earth to give indications of wind currents and the like. This known system of barium release has proved effective but is inherently of low efficiency in producing barium vapor yielding, in practice, only from 2 to 4 percent of the total chemical weight when actually up to 48 percent is available. In addition, the barium-copper oxide mixture is a fire hazard when mixing and pressing into the canister and must be done under inert atmospheric conditions which proves time-consuming and costly in operation. Also, little, if any, ionization takes place in this known system due to the initial heat generating reaction.

It is therefore an object of the present invention to provide a new and novel barium release system for atmospheric and space studies.

Another object of the present invention is a system for releasing barium in the vapor phase so that it can be ionized by solar radiation and excited to emit resonance radiation in the visible range.

Another object of the present invention is a novel chemical mixture for releasing a good yield of free atoms and barium ions.

A further object of the present invention is a binary liquid hypergolic chemical release system in which barium is formed as a vapor at the time of release.

The foregoing and other objects are attained in one aspect of the present invention by providing a liquid fuel, in which barium salts are dissolved, and a high energy oxidizer which spontaneously ignites the fuel on contact. The barium release is accomplished by impinging fuel and oxidizer jets in an open-ended combuation chamber which expels the reaction product gases or plasma and which includes the desired barium neutral atoms (Ba° ) and barium ions (Ba + ) as individual species.

A more complete appreciation of the invention and many of the attendant advantages thereof will be readily apparent as the same becomes better understood by reference to the following detailed description when considered in connection with the accompanying drawings wherein:

FIG. 1 is a schematic representation of the fuel and oxidizer tanks connected to an open-ended combustion chamber in a launch rocket for release of barium according to the present invention; and

FIG. 2 is a plot of triangular coordinates which defines the barium nitrate- barium chloride-hydrazine mixtures of the present invention.



posted on Apr, 1 2011 @ 12:36 PM
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reply to post by MathiasAndrew
 


I think he is one of them.



posted on Apr, 1 2011 @ 03:49 PM
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Originally posted by MathiasAndrew


The foregoing and other objects are attained in one aspect of the present invention by providing a liquid fuel, in which barium salts are dissolved, and a high energy oxidizer which spontaneously ignites the fuel on contact. The barium release is accomplished by impinging fuel and oxidizer jets in an open-ended combuation chamber which expels the reaction product gases or plasma and which includes the desired barium neutral atoms (Ba° ) and barium ions (Ba + ) as individual species.


The key point being that this is for an open ended combustion chamber, usually known as a rocket, not a jet engine. So this basically proves nothing for your case as it is for the wrong type of engine.

As well as that, do you really believe that Barium ions are visible? You need something about three orders of magnitude bigger to even reflect a photon of light, and even bigger for it to be visible.

You don't seem to know anything about what you post, just the results of some patent search with keywords "barium, dispersal, atmosphere".

As to the "Aluminium Demisting Agent", I wonder if you read that patent either. It tells you what it is for (reducing the chance of explosions in the event of a crash), and the weight involved, being 0.1 - 1.0% of the fuel it is in. Considering this is a very small fraction of the fuel mass, I can't see how that would cause it to persist. For a Boeing 777 - 300, this works out as 1.4 metric tons as a high end estimate, to be spread over 6,000 miles. I can't see how that can possibly create the trails you describe.
edit on 1-4-2011 by apex because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2011 @ 04:43 PM
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reply to post by apex
 


That open ended rocket on a jet is called an afterburner. That patent was from NASA in 1958, I'm sure they have improved upon it by now don't you think?

As for the Aluminum soap that causes the fuel to gel. I posted that because people have been saying that Jet fuel doesn't contain aluminum additives. That aluminum soap is not they only additive that can be added to fuel. It was just an example of the absolute lies and cover up attempts by chemtrail debunkers.



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