Why do "saturday night" pistols have such a horrible reputation?

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


I used to work in one of the largest gun shops in the south. There are a few problems with the brands you mention. The most common was that they were finicky about ammo. They were also not made of good quality metal. I used to try to steer people to the 9x18 Makarov instead; it wasn't that much more and it was much better quality.

reply to post by ANNED

not so look at this 380 auto, www.ableammo.com... to me any pistol that has a 2 1/2 or less brl no matter what cal is a SNS Saturday Night Special for a 25 auto www.rrarms.com... but i think you will get the idea there still around just the price has gone up some can still be got for less than $125 or as high as $600. and for that price just get a 9mm or a 45 auto, you might even find a 44 mag.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by webpirate

 

Yeah but .22s don't have as bad a reputation as the .25s and .32s and for the life of me it does not make sense. You don't get better penetration with a .22 than with a .25 because the .25 has more mass than the .22! Ok a .22 might go further and be more accurate due to its slender design but its not more lethal, thats for sure.

As for the .32 people keep forgetting the OSI and army officers used it for a long time. The OSI is the precursor to the CIA.

uh that would bethe "OSS" Office of strategic services".

"OSI" is the Air force Office of Special Investigations(AFOSI)
ONE OF THE DOD THREE: " CID": US ARMY CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIVE DIIVISION"
"NIS": Navy (incl Marine corp) Naval investigative service...

OSI carried S&Wissued .38 revolvers for many years and cutdown ( colt "officer" sized 1911's in strongside pancake style holsters.while I was there.until that Italian brick
(M9) was issued also In a strong side high rise holster,Due to complaints.They eventually cameup witha personal choice holster transition program allowing us to use a shoulder holster if the training regimen was followed.


The.25 is also a center fire cartridge.It is more expensive to manufacture; It has a replaceable primer( though handling and reloading the small case is tedious. and wasoriginally thought to provide more reliable ignition. Though modern manufacturing makes the rimfire extremely reliable.,

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

Can someone tell me why lorcin, hi-points, jennings, jimenez, cobra and many imported "mouseguns" are looked down upon so much?

As others have pointed out... it's not the cartridges in question... modern ammo has made many of these small caliber weapons quite decent... no it is both the rep and poor quality of handguns from the manufactures you listed that make we experienced shooter cringe...
in other words dont waste your hard earned money of some dubious piece of crap if you cant afford a qual new gun then settle for a nice used one rather then buy something you might come regret

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
Hi. I like the .25acp and .32acp rounds more than the "man stoppers" with so-called "hydrostatic shock" due to less recoil and greater accuracy at slighter longer distances. Can someone tell me why lorcin, hi-points, jennings, jimenez, cobra and many imported "mouseguns" are looked down upon so much?

You think .25 and .32 rounds are more accurate at a distance than, say, 9mm or .357 Magnum or .40 S&W or .45 ACP? Who told you that? You need to go smack them.

Taking the guns first, the problem with most SNSs is they are lousy guns. Most of them are poorly designed, poorly manufactured, and of inferior materials.

They became a big issue with anti-gun libs because they were seen as an easy, inexpensive way to get into a life of crime. Truth is most gang members and drug dealers know and prefer quality weapons in serious calibers.

The rounds SNSs usually shoot are poor self defense rounds. While it's true any caliber will kill you some do it better than others. Someone shot with a minor caliber may eventually die but they may still be a threat, especially if armed with a firearm, for many minutes after being shot. The larger, more powerful, rounds tend to put the bad guys down faster. The search for the faster kill is what led law enforcement away from the .38 Special in the 1970s and 1980s. When it became clear the 9mm wasn't the answer either, although many failures of 9mm rounds can be attributed to ammo, the FBI started the process that led to the .40 S&W. Many people still think the .40 S&W is the ultimate combination of magazine capacity, gun size, and lethality for daily carry by law enforcement. A .40 135gr jacketed hollow point has the same ballistics as the all time champion man stopper, the 125gr jacketed hollow point .357 Magnum.

Which brings up another point. There are no really effective man stopper rounds with less than about 400 ft lbs of energy and the best ones are around 500 ft lbs. Most "mouse gun" rounds only have 200-300 ft lbs of energy. Energy by itself does not make a round deadly which is why the 9mm and .45 ACP FMJs are such poor man stoppers. To be effective a round not only needs high kinetic energy but a bullet design that will effectively shed that kinetic energy in the target and damage tissue. Damage to the target is the name of the game and part of the reason larger calibers are more effective. Bigger holes mean faster bleed out. More powerful rounds like the .44 or .41 Magnum and 10mm rounds are not the ultimate man stoppers. Rounds tend to overpenetrate and only shed a portion of their energy in the target.

The bottom line is any pistol round is a poor man stopper so you should buy the most powerful caliber you can shoot, put the best ammo in it you can buy, and learn to shoot it as well as you can. With any caliber or round ultimately shot placement and a cool head is going to win the day.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
Hi. I like the .25acp and .32acp rounds more than the "man stoppers" with so-called "hydrostatic shock" due to less recoil and greater accuracy at slighter longer distances. Can someone tell me why lorcin, hi-points, jennings, jimenez, cobra and many imported "mouseguns" are looked down upon so much?

Because they are "jam-a-matics".

I recall in particular one year when I was doing my yearly qualifications for work, another guy from another agency had brought in a Lorcin to qualify with. He failed to qualify, because he couldn't keep the gun running long enough at any one time.

Absolutely NOT something I'd be willing to bet MY one-and-only life on.

Real life experience w/ .25 ACP (don't know what type weapon it came from but it was only one shot so it probably doesn't matter):

Found a man shot lying with his head in the traffic lane around 1985. Nobody helping; long story short, it was a single .25 ACP FMJ through the right nipple. He was definitely not going anywhere. It appeared to be a lung shot with no exit wound. And it must have just happened since no PD or EMS were there and it was maybe 1 mile from the medical center in San antonio. The guy was barely coherent.

A lady drove by and said she would call EMS. His (maybe his) car was nearby and it appeared that there had been an argument with a female, 3 bullets exited out the windshield near the steering wheel, four empty casings and a spilled box of .25 ACP FMJ on the rear floorboard. Looked like he was going over the driver's seat to get at her. She was not around obviously. (I did my own little quick look-see in the car while I could, doors were open, not touching anything).

EMS arrived within about 5 minutes, I don't think he made it because they were there for 20 mins more trying to stabilize him. I asked my EMT buddy why they didn't just take him around the corner to Med Center; he said the policy is to never transport unless stabilized.

I'm a .45 man myself, but that incident made me respect the "mouse gun".

reply to post by trailertrash



I appreciate the ammo offer, my dad works at olin though and I get bricks of 22 ammo through him for $12-15.
When I go shooting I usually make a full day of it and shoot several hundred rounds. One thing I notice with smaller caliber guns is that the residue from firing seems to build up much faster and they require more frequent cleaning. It probably why so many misfires occur, most people have no clue how to maintain firearms. It takes years of firing to wear down even cheaply made guns.

Originally posted by roguetechie

But thanks for trying... if you think a .25 auto is more accurate than a 9mm or .45 you're not just crazy you're also stupid... The fact that you are unaware that the 50 bmg is THE ACME of long range sniping rounds says everything I need to know though LOL

Well handguns are not rifles. The .25acp is 6.35x16mm and the 9mm long is 9x19mm so the .25acp is more slender in relation to the 9mm long. That is just one aspect, then you consider the amount of gun powder used in relation to the bullet mass, barrel lenght,etc.

That is the reason the .22lr stays on target further than the .25acp. Its more aerodynamic!

OH and FYI: the .50 bmg I keep referring to is the round used by the M2 machine gun that is also used for long range sniping in various platforms made by companies such as BARRETT, STEYR, DENEL, ANZIO IRONWORKS, and et cetera. Figured I'd tell you what it is since you really seem to have not even a clue about guns...

Right. If I don't know everything....then I don't know anything!

Maybe the whole the idea of the .50bmg is to increase the possibility of "one strike-one kill" at long distances where it would be almost impossible to get a second chance? The Barrett is constructed as a sniper rifle with lots of power.

It has NOTHING to do with handguns because any caliber can be accurate if other factors are taken into consideration such as the ones we already mentioned.

Just so you know ... just because you own guns doesn't make you an expert... far from it in your case from what I've seen.

I never claimed to be an expert on pistols but thanks for putting words into my mouth. I ONLY claimed to own 3 shotguns and yes my knowledge of guns is limited!

Originally posted by James1982

Like I mentioned earlier in this post, your 9mm shotgun is pretty valuable. Why not sell it and put the money towards a pistol of better quality?

Indeed its pretty valuable but I don't wish to sell it because it has sentimental value to me as well as the L&C Smith double barrel. Both were handed to me by my father and the only purchase I made was the semi-automatic berreta shotgun.

Originally posted by EyesWideShut

(Not towards you VX)

This debate is getting old man... It's basically people that have real world experience vs people that are going through hypothetical scenarios they play out in their mind. I'm not a know it all by any means, but I know a thing or two about this topic.

Indeed it IS getting a little old. I keep reading people say "wait till you amass $400+ to get "a real gun" when they can spend much less and have some protection with a half-way decent gun. Of course saturday night "pieces of #" are not heirloms and will not last 50 years...thats a given!

BUT if you live in detroit, nyc, dc, la, chicago where gangs run wild maybe its better to have that "piece of #" rather than nothing at all. Its much better than a switchblade which is also illegal. If you can afford to spend more, then of course you should buy the better gun. That is obvous!

All I am saying is that cheap guns are really not all that bad. Most of the hysteria is just hype by gun snobs and the government that wants most people disarmed. Its easier to make it hard to own one by passing strict regulation and taxing the # out of everything, rather than to ban guns like they did in the UK and many european countries.

Maybe they fear racial wars or more jarred loughners. Who knows...........

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
Hi. I like the .25acp and .32acp rounds more than the "man stoppers" with so-called "hydrostatic shock" due to less recoil and greater accuracy at slighter longer distances. Can someone tell me why lorcin, hi-points, jennings, jimenez, cobra and many imported "mouseguns" are looked down upon so much?

Because they are "jam-a-matics".

I recall in particular one year when I was doing my yearly qualifications for work, another guy from another agency had brought in a Lorcin to qualify with. He failed to qualify, because he couldn't keep the gun running long enough at any one time.

Absolutely NOT something I'd be willing to bet MY one-and-only life on.

From what I understand the .25acp and .32acp rounds were more popular in europe and thus the guns made there were more reliable. But of course europeans drive smaller cars, live in smaller homes, drive on smaller roads, etc.

Nothing wrong with either culture, they just have different outlooks of life. To be fair though, most law enforcement agencies have upgraded to .380acp and 9mm quite some time ago. I think the smaller rounds are a thing of the past with marginal acceptance in todays world. It has evolved into a poor man's gun and/or target practice.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Originally posted by roguetechie

But thanks for trying... if you think a .25 auto is more accurate than a 9mm or .45 you're not just crazy you're also stupid... The fact that you are unaware that the 50 bmg is THE ACME of long range sniping rounds says everything I need to know though LOL

Well handguns are not rifles. The .25acp is 6.35x16mm and the 9mm long is 9x19mm so the .25acp is more slender in relation to the 9mm long. That is just one aspect, then you consider the amount of gun powder used in relation to the bullet mass, barrel lenght,etc.

That is the reason the .22lr stays on target further than the .25acp. Its more aerodynamic!

OH and FYI: the .50 bmg I keep referring to is the round used by the M2 machine gun that is also used for long range sniping in various platforms made by companies such as BARRETT, STEYR, DENEL, ANZIO IRONWORKS, and et cetera. Figured I'd tell you what it is since you really seem to have not even a clue about guns...

Right. If I don't know everything....then I don't know anything!

Maybe the whole the idea of the .50bmg is to increase the possibility of "one strike-one kill" at long distances where it would be almost impossible to get a second chance? The Barrett is constructed as a sniper rifle with lots of power.

It has NOTHING to do with handguns because any caliber can be accurate if other factors are taken into consideration such as the ones we already mentioned.

Just so you know ... just because you own guns doesn't make you an expert... far from it in your case from what I've seen.

I never claimed to be an expert on pistols but thanks for putting words into my mouth. I ONLY claimed to own 3 shotguns and yes my knowledge of guns is limited!

edit on 28-3-2011 by EarthCitizen07 because: add information

All the more reason to listen to what people that know more than yourself have to say in regards to firearms. You start your thread asking questions, people with experience answered your questions, yet you will not and cannot accept other peoples opinions and/or experiences in regards to firearms. Your knowledge of firearms is obviously very limited and you even stated that much in a few previous posts, my question to you is why did you open a thread basically asking for opinions and/or answers you got the answers from many posters with actual experience and yet you still cannot accept that the guys with experience are in fact right and even with your said "limited" experience with handguns you still take your word over they guys trying to talk some sense into you?

Its like you want people to give you answers and yet when they give them to you, you don't wanna hear what they have to say because you have it dead set in your brain that the .25acp and .32acp are a superior handgun cartridge and trumps all others well your so wrong with your thinking.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

All I am saying is that cheap guns are really not all that bad.

Until they fail, which is frequently and many people with lots of knowledge here have told you so. What are you going to do if you put a small caliber round in someone that is attacking you, your gun jams and he's still coming? You're either going to run fast or if he has a weapon you could very possibly be dead. I would ask yourself this; What is my life worth, $100, $200, etc? I would take the advice given here and buy a good quality used firearm 38 and up, that way you have some piece of mind and not wandering if your firearm has enough power or is reliable. No caliber is a gauranteed kill but bigger is usually better when it comes to self defense. I would look for a good used 40, there's a lot of them out there since it's standard issue for most LEO agencies. Glock 27 sub compact is a great gun although a little boxy for summer carry, for summer carry the S&W 642 38spl+ is my friend.

My real problem with SNS weapons is FTF/FTE problems and lack of force applied to the firing pin/striker that would turn decent ammo in to duds.

Hi-Points, and other SNS weapons are simply to low quality in material and workmanship to put my trust into it. I want a well made, well worth my money weapon that will fire each and every time I squeeze the trigger.

I know because I've bought a few for 1000 round tests.Makarov, Bersa, hi-point, and others are simple junk. Believe it or not the difference between one of these at $150 is another $150.

Just spend the money on something you KNOW will go boom.

Originally posted by Aliensdoexist
All the more reason to listen to what people that know more than yourself have to say in regards to firearms. You start your thread asking questions, people with experience answered your questions, yet you will not and cannot accept other peoples opinions and/or experiences in regards to firearms.

I accept all opinions that are posted in a respectful manner but that does not mean I have to agree with each and every one. And not all experts agree as to what reliable protection is--some say .32acp is still reliable, others say you need at least .380acp, while others say .40s&w Obviously there is no consensus.........

Your knowledge of firearms is obviously very limited and you even stated that much in a few previous posts, my question to you is why did you open a thread basically asking for opinions and/or answers you got the answers from many posters with actual experience and yet you still cannot accept that the guys with experience are in fact right and even with your said "limited" experience with handguns you still take your word over they guys trying to talk some sense into you?

Because I don't like hidden agendas and exaggerations. Some people are trying to make the small rounds and cheap guns look completely worthless, when in reality that is not even close to being true. Just look at YouTube videos and tell me how many of those idiots are really "experts".

At least I admit I am not an expert in handguns but that does not mean I am not entitled to MY OWN OPINIONS of what I see, read and hear. If you can't see the purpose of my thread then perhaps your one of those people that also believes the government should outlaw large magazines in rifles

Its like you want people to give you answers and yet when they give them to you, you don't wanna hear what they have to say because you have it dead set in your brain that the .25acp and .32acp are a superior handgun cartridge and trumps all others well your so wrong with your thinking.

Wow what bs school did you attend? I NEVER said that! What I DID say is that slender rounds are usually more accurate than bulky rounds BUT I will also say they carry less punch(knock-down power) then the bigger rounds. It really is commen sense so why argue with that?

Its a slight trade-off between accuracy and power but not much. When your shooting close range such details make no difference and even less of a difference is "one shot-one kill" or "two shots-one kill".

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

Some people are trying to make the small rounds and cheap guns look completely worthless, when in reality that is not even close to being true.

It's because they are......and these are not just "some" people, these are people with lots of shooting experience trying to help you not make a mistake that could ultimatly cost you your life. If you want a small caliber cheap POS, go for it, but if you really need to use it some day, don't be suprised that you may not be around for us to tell you "I told you so".

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
If you can't see the purpose of my thread then perhaps your one of those people that also believes the government should outlaw large magazines in rifles

Huh where the heck did this come from??? You seriously make very little sense in your posts, personally I'd rather you not own any firearms at all, you are all over the place in your posts with the only thing that is consistant is the .25acp and .32acp bandwagon that you've gladly jumped on like a fly attracted to a bug zapper. Would love to find out where this quote came from though, because nowhere in any of my posts as long as i've been on this sight have I supported the Governments infringement on our 2nd Amendment Rights. Go ahead and create some dilusional answer from your twisted mind and please sell your firearms because I honestly think that you should not own any weapons unless cleared by a doctor. I'm being serious.

reply to post by agentblue


yep i can confirm that and i wasent even the original owner got it 90$ used from a pawn shop in mt i heard about the warrenty and sent it in they sent me a brand new one with a mag for it! and its suprisingly accurate for being cheap(first hand gun ive owned)and if i can hit things with it im sure others can as i was a shotgun and mosin shooter before this! its not even that picky with ammo failed to feed once with hollow points but the target stuff i have a lot of has no problems

reply to post by projectvxn


www.gunsamerica.com...

there is one for sale at 899 dont know if thats a good price and the guy didnt include a picture but i found at least one for sale for ya

www.gunsamerica.com...

that one is in .357 and 989?