Why do "saturday night" pistols have such a horrible reputation?

reply to post by ZombieWoof


lol great post star and flag for that one I needed a laugh. Your sig makes it even better I love the 3 stooges.

Did you guys ever see that video of the Deroit police station that a guy raided with a shotgun back in January?

He was shot in the chest and kept standing for a few seconds before he fell. I'm assuming the reason he wasn't able to shoot more officers after he was wounded was because he ran out of shells. I guess he was shot with either a 9mm or .40s&w. The lesson I learned is that it doesnt' so much matter what you shoot, it's where you shoot. Marksmanship first, projectile second, firearm third.

Edit to add; You want to shoot 2 in the chest and 1 in the head for self defence. I find getting quick shots on target is a lot easier with the low recoil of the .22lr, compared to 9mm, .38, .357 and .45acp.

Originally posted by EyesWideShut

I brought my brother in law to my weekly shoot at range today for his first time , my hand to God, as we are leaving the car to walk into the range he says "I should do pretty good, I've been playing call of duty alot"

Haha gotta love stories like that. I had a friend (who is not longer a friend for unrelated reasons) that I went shooting with before, that was a big COD player.

Didn't do anything too ridiculous while shooting, but when me and my other buddy that is also knowledgeable of REAL firearms would get to talking guns, he would chime in with all sorts of gun "info" if you could call it it.

He was under the impression the Desert Eagle is the best combat pistol out there (or Deagle, like the dog breed with a "d" as he called it) Then all sorts of "gun x is better than gun y" which were usually horribly wrong.

He proclaimed that .223 chambered guns were far more powerful than 7.62x39 or even 308! When called on his BS he would, and I'm being honest here, reference COD and say "I think they know a little big more about guns than you guys do" LOL

Anyway, back to the topic at hand...

Originally posted by Aliensdoexist

9mm Rim Fire Shotgun, holy bejesus you've just invented a new round. Please tell us all how you did it, and if you don't mind me asking what the hell is "2 Plugged".

Winchester actually did make a shotgun that was a 9mm Rimfire, the model 36, it's a very odd piece indeed. They are pretty rare from what I understand, and worth a pretty good chunk of change. If the OP owns one of these, I'd suggest he sell it, and spend half the money on a decent pistol, and the other half on a more modern shotgun. Win-win situation!

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07


Hey retard, I own three shotguns

1)12 guage double barrel
2)12 guage semi-auto 5 shots-2 plugged
3)9 mm rim fire shotgun

So I am not exactly a "call of duty" novice. Take your bs expertise to someone else who really is clueless....

Yes I am not a pistol afficionado. I explained why I want a CHEAP pistol and yes I have watched videos, read articles, talked to people, etc If I can shoot my 12 guage out to 60 yards and kill anything with ONE SHOT 90% of the time then that means I am probably pretty good, no?

Owning some guns doesn't instantly give you a broad knowledge base about all types of firearms. The fact is, that what you've been saying about these smaller caliber rounds is just not true. I doubt you are just making stuff up, that means you are simply misinformed, so people are trying to inform you.

If you want a pistol to protect yourself, then get one that can actually do the job. Guns are not something to want to "cheap out" on. Get a smaller TV, a slower computer, or an older car. But I'd suggest not skimping when it comes to personal protection. I wouldn't buy a 1,000 count box of condoms at the dollar store, just like I wouldn't buy some janky .32 to protect myself.

Like I mentioned earlier in this post, your 9mm shotgun is pretty valuable. Why not sell it and put the money towards a pistol of better quality?

One more problem with these smaller caliber pistols, that I don't think has been mentioned yet, is that the vast majority of them are of the direct blowback design. While there are a few reliable models that have been made, this design is less reliable than the delayed blowback mechanism in most other pistols. It is also much more picky about what type of ammunition is used, because the slide's weight, and recoil spring's tension are the only thing that keep the breach locked up. If you use more powerful ammunition this could cause the slide to recoil before it should, which can cause performance and reliability issues.

Originally posted by Darce
Did you guys ever see that video of the Deroit police station that a guy raided with a shotgun back in January?

He was shot in the chest and kept standing for a few seconds before he fell. I'm assuming the reason he wasn't able to shoot more officers after he was wounded was because he ran out of shells. I guess he was shot with either a 9mm or .40s&w. The lesson I learned is that it doesnt' so much matter what you shoot, it's where you shoot. Marksmanship first, projectile second, firearm third.

While I'll agree 100% that marksmanship is incredibly important, in a defense situation it's typical to aim center mass, and try to shoot someone in the torso.

If you don't have a round that's capable of stopping an attacker unless you shoot them in the head, something that's difficult for many people to do at the range, let alone in a dark, adrenaline tainted half-asleep home defense situation, then that marksmanship won't do much good.

reply to post by Darce


You wanna aim center mass period. A gun fight doesn't allow for taking your time and aiming accurately. Much less so at close range. You wanna aim for what you can hit the easiest and that is center mass.

"2 in the chest one in the head" is total BS. If you drop a guy with 2 in the chest and you walk up and pop him in the head it is MURDER, not self defense, and you will be charged.

It ain't a movie or a video game dude.

I like my Series 80 Government Model Colt 380 just fine for concealed carry... It has ridden in my tank bag, faring or jacket pocket many miles through many states.... I have other hand guns of larger caliber that reach out further and I hit well enough to have eradicated my property of wild hogs with a John D. Inglis 9mm High Power. It is a great side arm but can not be concealed in a local that seldom has weather and temperatures that warrant wearing a coat but a few weeks a year at most.... There are .22 magnum handguns that have more Lbs Ft of knockdown power than a .380 that I would feel comfortable carrying concealed but most lack the quality of an enhanced Colt....If I was not confident in my ability to place rounds where I aim while under pressure I suppose I wouldn't carry a concealed weapon at all... My wife packs a Model 38 S&W Airweight when she heads off to the big city and is really more into guns than I am.. I'd just as soon shoot at cans with a .22 as any other caliber pistol or rifle but she likes shooting my .357Magnum Dan Wesson target gun.... I have no interest in having a .25 or .32 pistol.. I have been shot at by both while in my car and they both didn't penetrate the door and my uncle killed a guy with a S&W MP .38 that had already shot him 5 times with a .25 automatic... The pistol I adjusted to immediately that I would choose as a service weapon if I required one is the Colt Double Eagle in 10mm, any Sig Sauer P220 would be nice also.... Cheap guns just won't do what a good one does and good ones aren't cheap.

reply to post by projectvxn


No, I mean getting those three shots off before he hits the ground. That's why I think it's a lot easier to do that with the light recoil of .22lr.

Kinda odd you assumed differently, I lol'd at your computer game comment. I forget what the exercise is called, but it stems from some mercs experience in africa where he had to down a very coked up ak47 weilding gunman in a hallway. I think the story goes he shot the guy in the chest twice with his 9mm pistol and he didn't flinch, so he had to shoot him in the head to down him. That's why you always practice; 2 in the chest, one in the head. It's hard to do that with a 9mm at any range over 7m, but I can do that at 25m with .22lr, in that quick 3 shot burst.

Edit; Can't you?


Edit again; it's the Mozambique drill!

reply to post by Aliensdoexist



Well considering I build and customize firearms as well as put together tactical gear packages for people (including my sibling's entire marine unit!) I'll just assume you are projecting your own inadequacies onto me.

I reload and custom load my own ammo... build and customize firearms ( helpful hint: I can buy a piece of 1mm thickness mild steel sheet and turn it into an AK receiver for you in a few hours including the layout cutting,fit and finish then bending welding heat treating and riveting the receiver together!)

What you THINK you know is not a DROP in the bucket to the thousands of hours I have spent working with firearms and ammunition.

But thanks for trying... if you think a .25 auto is more accurate than a 9mm or .45 you're not just crazy you're also stupid... The fact that you are unaware that the 50 bmg is THE ACME of long range sniping rounds says everything I need to know though LOL

OH and FYI: the .50 bmg I keep referring to is the round used by the M2 machine gun that is also used for long range sniping in various platforms made by companies such as BARRETT, STEYR, DENEL, ANZIO IRONWORKS, and et cetera. Figured I'd tell you what it is since you really seem to have not even a clue about guns...

Just so you know ... just because you own guns doesn't make you an expert... far from it in your case from what I've seen.

en.wikipedia.org...

Rhodesian Mike Rousseau was serving as a mercenary in Mozambique at the time. While engaged in fighting at the airport of Lourenco Marques (modern-day Maputo), Rousseau was armed with only a Browning HP35 pistol. As he turned a corner, he bumped into a FRELIMO guerrilla armed with an AK-47. Rousseau immediately performed a "double tap" maneuver, a controlled shooting technique in which the shooter makes two quick shots at the target's torso. Rousseau hit the target on either side of the sternum, usually enough to incapacitate or kill a target outright. Seeing that the guerrilla was still advancing, Rosseau made a clumsy attempt at a head shot that luckily hit the guerrilla through the base of his neck, severing the spinal cord.

reply to post by roguetechie


Wrong "reply to" perhaps? I don't think aliensedoexist was disputing what you were saying.

Or perhaps it looked that way because of the double quote, but I think he was talking to "earthcitizen"

reply to post by James1982


James I really have to agree with the saying "It might be more difficult to hit them with the .45, but you only have to hit them once."

The thing is; missing your first, 2nd, 3rd shot because the threat isn't within 10m kind of defeats the purpose. I can't hit the target very often with the old 1911 at 25m. With a .22lr pistol it's possible to get every shot on paper at 25m though. .22lr packs a good punch at 25m. Obviously it dives outside of 75m and might not even kill a bunny outside of 175m. At 25m though, it should kill, unless we're talking about body armour here.

reply to post by Darce


So technically it was a lucky shot...

Not something to put into practice in a real firefight. If I double tap a dude and he doesn't go down I'm gonna keep tapping the chest until he does. Especially if said dude has a long arm.

Is it just me or does anyone feel like shooting paper at 7m is a big waste of ammo? I've heard the saying "most handgun engagements occur within 7m" but at that range aren't you just pointing, not really aiming? That's fun to practice, the reactionary shooting, but in IDPA (handgun competitions) you're expected to shoot a lot farther than that. Why isn't 15m concidered the bare minimum for practicing aimed shots?

reply to post by Darce


Not sure. With my Ruger SR9(9mm) I can hit targets at 30 yards...not extremely accurately mind you, but I can hit 'em.

Closer targets within 10 to 15 yards are a lot easier when you practice at that range.

reply to post by projectvxn


The "2 in the chest 1 in the head thing" is called a "failure drill" or "Mozambique Drill" It's basically Hammers center mass and 1 in the brain housing group. The purpose for the head shot is if the BG is wearing body armor , or if the Hammers fail to stop him for some other reason. It's hammers... assess... head shot if need be.

Nice Avatar BTW!
___________________________________________________________________________________________

(Not towards you VX)

This debate is getting old man... It's basically people that have real world experience vs people that are going through hypothetical scenarios they play out in their mind. I'm not a know it all by any means, but I know a thing or two about this topic.

That being said, I wouldn't volunteer to get shot with a sub caliber round. It all boils down to effeciency... Service caliber hits stop the threat faster 100% of the time. Pick the right tool for the job. I'm sure I could cut down an oak tree eventually with the saw on my swiss army knife, It's just not my first pick... this is what this debate feels like to me.

Originally posted by roguetechie
reply to post by Aliensdoexist

 

Well considering I build and customize firearms as well as put together tactical gear packages for people (including my sibling's entire marine unit!) I'll just assume you are projecting your own inadequacies onto me.

I reload and custom load my own ammo... build and customize firearms ( helpful hint: I can buy a piece of 1mm thickness mild steel sheet and turn it into an AK receiver for you in a few hours including the layout cutting,fit and finish then bending welding heat treating and riveting the receiver together!)

What you THINK you know is not a DROP in the bucket to the thousands of hours I have spent working with firearms and ammunition.

But thanks for trying... if you think a .25 auto is more accurate than a 9mm or .45 you're not just crazy you're also stupid... The fact that you are unaware that the 50 bmg is THE ACME of long range sniping rounds says everything I need to know though LOL

OH and FYI: the .50 bmg I keep referring to is the round used by the M2 machine gun that is also used for long range sniping in various platforms made by companies such as BARRETT, STEYR, DENEL, ANZIO IRONWORKS, and et cetera. Figured I'd tell you what it is since you really seem to have not even a clue about guns...

Just so you know ... just because you own guns doesn't make you an expert... far from it in your case from what I've seen.

Umm I'm pretty sure you quoted the wrong person "Me", nowhere in any of my post did I question anyones knowledge of firearms except for the "OP", usually its very easy to see when someone knows very little when it comes to knowledge of firearms and the OP is clearly very misguided with the information that he has imbedded into his head. I am no gunsmith but i can shoot pretty damn well with my handguns and my .308 Kimber 8400 Tactical with US Optics 3.5-15x44 SSDS scope and can back it with proof.

reply to post by James1982


"He proclaimed that .223 chambered guns were far more powerful than 7.62x39 or even 308! When called on his BS he would, and I'm being honest here, reference COD and say "I think they know a little big more about guns than you guys do"

Classic, what's worse is waiting in line at the gun shop while a group of these dudes comes in and damn near drives the counter guy to assault by asking him 1000 questions and trying to finger *&@$ every weapon on display, and you're just trying to pick up ammo.

yep it's call of duty versus those of us who actually work with and understand firearms...

I have weapons of both type and while honestly I would always PREFER to carry my most capable weapon, I have the others because that's not always possible!

Honestly I am not even a "handgun guy" the Handguns I have are all under a thousand dollars MSRP and most are under 300!! This is simply due to the fact that the only reason to use a handgun is to FIGHT YOUR WAY TO A RIFLE.

Also on a related note for some people the .25 or .32 may be their ideal weapon due to the old maxim that the best gun for the job is the one YOU HAVE IN YOUR POSSESSION! Any of them are better than double ought high heels or your fists.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

I had a relative who sold a 25acp pistol that ended up being used in a mafia shooting in Chicago in the 1970's. The "target" was shot at point blank range with the "shooter" expending the entire magazine into his head. BOTH men went to the hospital, the "target" was treated for gun-shot wounds to the head, the "shooter" had an appointment with the coroner as he was beaten to death by the "target". There is no doubt that any caliber can kill, although alot depends on shot placement. The bigger the bullet the more damage it will do. A bigger, slower moving projectile will do more damage than a smaller, faster one. Just think about it, what kind of vehicle survives a crash better? A pinto or a cadillac?, the pinto will cause damage to the caddy, but if the caddy hits the pinto...

May as well add my 2 cents.

If I could carry my 40 S&W Glock 22 all the time - I would. What I can carry concealed all the time, is my Keltec P32. A 32 caliber pistol in the pocket is better than the Glock 22 sitting in the gunsafe because I'm wearing a Tshirt and shorts that day.

Why I chose the Keltec 32:
Keltec is the lightest semi-auto pistol out there (If I'm not mistaken)
With a 32, I get one more round in the magazine than a 380 of the same size.
Had 380 colt, it was larger, heavier in the pocket, had a worse trigger and kicked more than the 32 Keltec.
22 LR is just too damn small for me to bet my life on.
25 ACP - got to be the most worthless round on the market! Better off with 22 Mag.

Not just theory, I carry all the time. (Doesn't mean anyone has to agree with me!)

I'm a former Marine and survived 2 knife attacks when I was unarmed, I don't want to push my luck on a third time.