The Riddle of Humpty Dumpty Solved - Freemasonry and Medieval Riddles

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posted on Mar, 26 2011 @ 11:46 AM
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From my Blog. It seems like this article would fit on ATS well.


Charles Dodgson, better know as Lewis Carroll, wrote the infamous novel, Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland. From my perspective, the secret to the Humpty Dumpty Riddle is contained within his works. This article represents my attempt to solve a riddle that has plagued me since my time in the crib. Am I correct? You decide. If not, it was fun trying and you can leave me a few comments (But play NICE!). And yes I know, he's an egg.

Humpty Dumpty (EGG/DNA) sat on a wall.
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the King’s horses and all the King’s men could not put Humpty back together again.

Mod Note : Posting work written by others.– Please Review This Link.

Also Please include a source link for posted material .

edit on 27-3-2011 by xpert11 because: trim quoted text , mod quote , add external tags
edit on 27-3-2011 by xpert11 because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 26 2011 @ 11:52 AM
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I think a lot could be read into it
it does make the simple point that
life is fragile
it is not within mans' power
to put spilt life back together again...


(like bombing people back to democracy
then you find out it is so people like rob emanual
can have dead people vote for him in chicago)



posted on Mar, 26 2011 @ 11:56 AM
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From the East Anglia Tourist Board in England:


"Humpty Dumpty was a powerful cannon during the English Civil War (1642-49). It was mounted on top of the St Marys at the Wall Church in Colchester defending the city against seige in the summer of 1648. (Although Colchester was a Parliamentarian stronghold, it had been captured by the Royalists and they held it for 11 weeks.) The church tower was hit by the enemy and the top of the tower was blown off, sending "Humpty" tumbling to the ground. Naturally the King's men* tried to mend him but in vain."

* NB: The "men" would have been infantry, and "horses" the cavalry troops.


Source

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Please include a source link to material .
edit on 27-3-2011 by xpert11 because: Mod Edit and note , trimmed quoted text , add external source tags , add link



posted on Mar, 26 2011 @ 12:12 PM
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Charles Dodgson was a Freemason, a devout Roman Catholic and a highly skilled mathematician. Freemasons originate from the Knights Templar (Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon (knowledge)).


It is so exhausting to keep on iterating it, but once again - there is no official connection between knights templar and the freemasons. NONE whatsoever. And once again, you can not be a Catholic and a Freemason as you will be excommunicated from the church if you are.



posted on Mar, 26 2011 @ 12:13 PM
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reply to post by eliteosbo
 


Now that makes some sense.

I was just getting ready to post a message to the effect that,
Maybe it's just a silly poem? Nothing more, nothing less.

But to the OP, good job with the imagination and thanks for posting!



posted on Mar, 26 2011 @ 12:20 PM
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I thought Freemasons originated way before the Knights Templar to the Stone masons that built the pyramids and or King Solomon's Temple.



posted on Mar, 26 2011 @ 03:16 PM
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It was also a Middle Ages drink. The riddles from this time period always had other meanings. Dodgson intended other meaning, clearly. You are right on the cannon idea. It's well documented.


Originally posted by eliteosbo
From the East Anglia Tourist Board in England:

"Humpty Dumpty was a powerful cannon during the English Civil War (1642-49). It was mounted on top of the St Marys at the Wall Church in Colchester defending the city against seige in the summer of 1648. (Although Colchester was a Parliamentarian stronghold, it had been captured by the Royalists and they held it for 11 weeks.) The church tower was hit by the enemy and the top of the tower was blown off, sending "Humpty" tumbling to the ground. Naturally the King's men* tried to mend him but in vain."

* NB: The "men" would have been infantry, and "horses" the cavalry troops.

"Humpty Dumpty" referred to King Richard III, the hunchbacked monarch. At the Battle of Bosworth Field, he fell from his steed, a horse he had named "Wall" (as dramatically rendered in Shakespeare's play "Richard III": "A horse! A horse! My Kingdom for a Horse!") Richard was surrounded by enemy troops in the battle, and was butchered right there, his body being hacked to pieces. Hence the final part of the rhyme: "All the King's Horses and All the King's men couldn't put Humpty together again!"

Humpty Dumpty refers to the British use of a machine called a Testudo (an ancient Roman engine of war). The Romans often used this predecessor to the modern tank to cross moats and climb over castle walls. As the story goes, the British army was trying to conquer a castle with a moat, but they had no way to get over the wall, so decide to construct a Testudo. During the night, while the British army was working, the opposing army widened the moat. The next morning when the British attacked, their valuable machine plummeted from the wall into the moat. This failure is why the Testudo was the only Roman warfare technology not widely used by the British Empire. Humpty Dumpty refers to both the look of the machine (it gets its name because it looks like a tortoise) and also to the noise the wheels make as the machine moves forward. This Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall, Humpty Dumpty had a great fall, All the King's Horses and All the King's men, Couldn't put Humpty together again. The rhyme works perfectly. There is an older version of the rhyme that fits even better, but I can't remember it. The whole egg reference only dates back as far as Lewis Carol's Alice in Wonderland.



posted on Mar, 26 2011 @ 03:19 PM
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Not according to Albert Pike in Morals and Dogma. I have read it twice. There is a seamless connection. All secret societies used Hermetic Philosophy as their hidden knowledge. The riddles in Alice were Dodgson's way of hiding his philosophy from the church. He was a Jesuit of high orders making him play both sides of the knowledge. Just like others before him trying to avoid the wrath of the church.



Originally posted by fordrew


Charles Dodgson was a Freemason, a devout Roman Catholic and a highly skilled mathematician. Freemasons originate from the Knights Templar (Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon (knowledge)).


It is so exhausting to keep on iterating it, but once again - there is no official connection between knights templar and the freemasons. NONE whatsoever. And once again, you can not be a Catholic and a Freemason as you will be excommunicated from the church if you are.
edit on 26-3-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 26 2011 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Not according to Albert Pike in Morals and Dogma. I have read it twice. There is a seamless connection. All secret societies used Hermetic Philosophy as their hidden knowledge. The riddles in Alice were Dodgson's way of hiding his philosophy from the church. He was a Jesuit of high orders making him play both sides of the knowledge. Just like others before him trying to avoid the wrath of the church.



Originally posted by fordrew


Charles Dodgson was a Freemason, a devout Roman Catholic and a highly skilled mathematician. Freemasons originate from the Knights Templar (Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon (knowledge)).


It is so exhausting to keep on iterating it, but once again - there is no official connection between knights templar and the freemasons. NONE whatsoever. And once again, you can not be a Catholic and a Freemason as you will be excommunicated from the church if you are.
edit on 26-3-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)



Unfortunately you fail to recognize that Morals and Dogma is a book of one man's opinion. He offered his views on Freemasonry and people fail to recognize it is a subjective work. Not to mention this has nothing to do with the normal "blue lodge" freemasonry (only 3 degrees). His writings are basically for the APPENDANT BODY ( an appendant body is an organization within an organization) of Scottish Rite Freemasonry.



So if you want to agree with this man then it is ok but it is not the written word of Freemasonry at all.

source of course: www.masonicinfo.com...
edit on 26-3-2011 by fordrew because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 26 2011 @ 07:10 PM
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Originally posted by fordrew


Charles Dodgson was a Freemason, a devout Roman Catholic and a highly skilled mathematician. Freemasons originate from the Knights Templar (Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon (knowledge)).


It is so exhausting to keep on iterating it, but once again - there is no official connection between knights templar and the freemasons. NONE whatsoever. And once again, you can not be a Catholic and a Freemason as you will be excommunicated from the church if you are.


I am Catholic (though I really do not practice it) and I am a Freemason. I know many Freemasons who are also Catholic and are actually very involved in the Church. Excommunication these days is not what it used to be in Medieval times, the main thing is we are considered to be in a state of grave sin, and we are not allowed Holy Communion, however many priests still give Holy Communion to those they know are in fact Freemasons.

OF course, there may not be any OFFICIAL connection, that does not mean there is no connection. There is ample evidence to suggest, Freemasons united with Knights Templar. I myself have attended informative and educational talks that link in most cases without a doubt, the parallels of Freemasonry with Knights Templar. Other evidence suggets, Templars took upon Masonry and transfered their knowledge for safe keeping. There are many different scenarios, out of them, one may be correct, several may be correct, and true, perhaps none are correct. In the end, You were not there during those times and neither was I, so neither one of us can say that there is absolutely NO connection. And to be fair we can not say that there infact IS, however I personally believe that Freemasonry is an extension of the orde of Knights Templar, Freemasonry in my opinion is the legacy of the Templars.



posted on Mar, 26 2011 @ 07:14 PM
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reply to post by SuperiorEd
 


Anyway, to get back on track, this is a very interesting theory. It makes a lot of sense. I will be looking further into this matter good work!



posted on Mar, 26 2011 @ 07:19 PM
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Originally posted by JohnTheStarChild
I thought Freemasons originated way before the Knights Templar to the Stone masons that built the pyramids and or King Solomon's Temple.


Pretty much you are right. The way I have seen it is, The knights Templar developed their Masonry skills along with the found knowledge that was said to be buried in the temple during their excavations and restoration, finding ancient building secrets and perhaps implementing new ideas of their own. Perhaps it seems, they themselves became Stone Masons and either adopted Masonry and/or took over becoming a "supreme council" more or less of the craft.



posted on Mar, 26 2011 @ 07:35 PM
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Isn't it about the fall of cardinal wolsey? That's what i have always thought.



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 09:21 AM
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Originally posted by fordrew
And once again, you can not be a Catholic and a Freemason as you will be excommunicated from the church if you are.


This does not seem to apply at all times as there are several members of my lodge who are Knights of Columbus and their monsignor is aware of their dual membership status and they have not been excommunicated despite them joining the Masons almost three years ago.



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 09:46 AM
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reply to post by eliteosbo
 
My wife and I were just talking about the old nursery rhymes a few nights ago, and I asked her how do we know Humpty Dumpty was an egg. We both thank you for answering the question! No doubt you'll find this hard to believe, but neither my wife or myself give a damn where you got your information.



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by fordrew


Charles Dodgson was a Freemason, a devout Roman Catholic and a highly skilled mathematician. Freemasons originate from the Knights Templar (Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon (knowledge)).


It is so exhausting to keep on iterating it, but once again - there is no official connection between knights templar and the freemasons. NONE whatsoever. And once again, you can not be a Catholic and a Freemason as you will be excommunicated from the church if you are.


That is not true. It was true for awhile, but not now. The Catholic Church no longer excommunicates people for being Freemasons. Some of the parishes frown upon it and some encourage it. We have many Catholic members these days.



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 10:20 AM
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reply to post by getreadyalready
 


reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 




Didn't know that. I guess im stuck in the past . Thanks for the info! Rather interesting that now they do not excommunicate people....


Anyways, back to humpty dumpty ... Back then they did not know about DNA or genes let alone anything smaller than their hair or a louse!



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Not according to Albert Pike in Morals and Dogma. I have read it twice.
And this, Masonic Light would argue, is one point where Pike was wrong. Or, at least, he was mislead and in later books changed his stance on that relationship. Coincidentally this is the origin of the oft quoted Pike passage about low level Masons being mislead by high level Masons. He wrote that because the blue lodge degrees don't mention the Templars at all, and he was told (incorrectly) later that there WAS a connection. He considered the lack of education on the Templar topic to the blue lodge degrees an example of omission based on rank. But, again, he was wrong.

No Mason should consider Pike's word as gospel anyway. As others have written, it's just one man's opinion.



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 02:01 PM
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I will try not to fail this time.

Albert Pike was the founder of the Scottish Rite Freemasonry. It cannot be said one way or another, but the evidence exists that there is an obvious connection. The connection is obvious by fact that the Masons have always held Hermetic and Egyptian philosophy as central to their inner knowledge. The early Knights Templar are the first to search for and discover this knowledge which then branched out to all orders of esoteric knowledge and degree assertion organizations. The true origin of all these came from the greater and lesser mysteries and the initiation process of antiquity. They are all interconnected.

Here are links to connect the Knights Templar to Freemasonry and others that refute it. Either way, Albert is the final word as far as I am concerned.

1. Wikipedia

2. Wikipedia 2

"Some historians and authors have tried to draw a link from Freemasonry and its many branches to the Templars. This alleged link remains a point of debate. Degrees in the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite such as the Knight of Saint Andrew, the Knight of Rose-Croix, and the 32nd Degree in Consistory make reference to a "Masonic Knights Templar" connection, but this is usually dismissed as being ceremonial and not historical fact."

According to Uncle Albert,

"The Templars, or Poor Fellow-Soldiery of the Holy House of the Temple intended to be re-built, took as their models, in the Bible, the Warrior-Masons of Zorobabel, who worked, holding the sword in one hand and the trowel in the other. Therefore it was that the Sword and the Trowel were the insignia of the Templars, who subsequently, as will be seen, concealed themselves under the name of Brethren Masons. [This name, Frères Masons in the French, adopted by way of secret reference to the Builders of the Second Temple, was corrupted in English into Free-Masons, as Pythagore de Crotone was into Peter Gower of Groton in England. Khairu_m or Khu_r-u_m, (a name mis-rendered into Hiram) from an artificer in brass and other metals, became the Chief Builder of the Haikal Kadosh, the Holy House, of the Temple, the Ἱερος Δομος; and the words Bonai and Banaim yet appear in the Masonic Degrees, meaning Builder and Builders.]


Originally posted by fordrew

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Not according to Albert Pike in Morals and Dogma. I have read it twice. There is a seamless connection. All secret societies used Hermetic Philosophy as their hidden knowledge. The riddles in Alice were Dodgson's way of hiding his philosophy from the church. He was a Jesuit of high orders making him play both sides of the knowledge. Just like others before him trying to avoid the wrath of the church.



Originally posted by fordrew


Charles Dodgson was a Freemason, a devout Roman Catholic and a highly skilled mathematician. Freemasons originate from the Knights Templar (Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon (knowledge)).


It is so exhausting to keep on iterating it, but once again - there is no official connection between knights templar and the freemasons. NONE whatsoever. And once again, you can not be a Catholic and a Freemason as you will be excommunicated from the church if you are.
edit on 26-3-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)



Unfortunately you fail to recognize that Morals and Dogma is a book of one man's opinion. He offered his views on Freemasonry and people fail to recognize it is a subjective work. Not to mention this has nothing to do with the normal "blue lodge" freemasonry (only 3 degrees). His writings are basically for the APPENDANT BODY ( an appendant body is an organization within an organization) of Scottish Rite Freemasonry.



So if you want to agree with this man then it is ok but it is not the written word of Freemasonry at all.

source of course: www.masonicinfo.com...
edit on 26-3-2011 by fordrew because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 27 2011 @ 02:10 PM
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True, but they did have the obsession to find the tree of life and the keys to immortality. DNA is the obvious conclusion to draw through history for us, but they were just in amazement by the fact that seeds can raise to the mighty oak and and egg can turn into a chicken. The egg was the universal symbol to use on may levels. The dream of every king was to cheat death and keep the kingdom and riches forever. The reference to impenetrability was his way of saying that it was impossible. God is in control. The other interesting fact about the Alice stories is that he locked algebra equations throughout. The symbolism in these books has never really been fully investigated. I only touched on one aspect. Read his early poetry to see that he was obsessed with retaining youth.


Originally posted by fordrew
reply to post by getreadyalready
 


reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 




Didn't know that. I guess im stuck in the past . Thanks for the info! Rather interesting that now they do not excommunicate people....


Anyways, back to humpty dumpty ... Back then they did not know about DNA or genes let alone anything smaller than their hair or a louse!





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