Spycraft : Being Homosexual, the Subversive Government Element, and Espionage...

reply to post by Epiphron


Let me stop you right there.

People are not born the way they are.

If they are born deformed, yes, this is something I agree with.

Being homosexual however is a choice.

It is not as simple as just deciding one day "I'm going to be gay" either.

It comes down to many different things which make that person choose to become what they become.

An actor is not born an actor.

He studies, learns, or is naturally adept at skills some of us cannot hope to accomplish.

A construction worker is not born wearing a hard-hat and boots.

His father might have been a construction worker and he took after his father.

Your limiting this to someone being born into homosexuality makes it sound as if a man does not have a choice in seeking male or female, they might just be born that way, it is so many other elements, from family upbringing, to rebellion to authority, to having sex at an early age, to being introduced into a relationship at an influencial age, to making personal choices.

Then there is as well people being forced into their sexuality.

Quote from : Wikipedia : Transsexualism

Transsexualism is an individual's identification with a gender inconsistent or not culturally associated with their biological sex.

A medical diagnosis can be made if a person experiences discomfort as a result of a desire to be a member of the opposite sex, or if a person experiences impaired functioning or distress as a result of that gender identification.

Transsexualism is stigmatized in many parts of the world but has become more widely known in Western culture in the mid to late 20th century, concurrently with the sexual revolution and the development of sex reassignment surgery.

Discrimination and negative attitudes towards transsexualism often accompany certain religious beliefs or cultural values.

There are cultures that have no difficulty integrating people who change gender roles, often holding them with high regard, such as the traditional role for 'two-spirit' people found among certain native American tribes.

To belittle someone so as to state they are born who they are is absurd unless the above is true.

This is a whole lot more complicated an issue than you're specifying.

Known any transsexuals?

I have.

Did I treat them differently?

No.

I discussed controversial topics with the few I've known.

People change, people make choices, people experiment, people accept or deny society.

As I referenced earlier I was raised Christian, and right-wing, to an almost extremist viewpoint.

I changed that however.

Did I not?

Or was I born a right-wing Christian with my head up my ass?

Possibly I saw where the church was wrong, my parents were wrong, where society was wrong?

I did figure out that what we see as a society is not the whole of who we are.

It is instead our experiences which make us into the individuals we become.

Your stance is exactly why I posted this thread the way I did.

Due not only to societies ignorances and biases against homosexuals.

But as well to the complexity of the issue and some of the ramifications society is responsible for.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

Let me stop you right there.

People are not born the way they are.

If they are born deformed, yes, this is something I agree with.

Being homosexual however is a choice....

I am going to have to agree that I think you are correct.

If there is a genetic component for male homosexuality it is a "Lethal" in that the gene would not be passed down to children. For females, because of rape, the gene could be passed on.

However given that the sex drive is one of the strongest biological drives BECAUSE it passes your genes to your offspring, homosexuality does not make biological sense.

Here are some articles that show what I mean.

Some 800 years ago, a fearsome, charismatic warrior named Temujin united the nomadic tribes of Mongolia. In 1206, he assumed the title Genghis Khan, often translated as emperor of emperors, and started invading surrounding territories. Massacring many of the people that he conquered, so as to leave no enemies and to strike fear in would-be foes, Genghis Khan ultimately controlled a massive empire ranging from today's Afghanistan across China. His male descendants continued the dynasty for many generations.

It appears that Genghis Khan left a mark on more than history: His influence may persist in the DNA of men today. According to an international team of geneticists, about 1 in 12 men in Asia--and therefore 1 in 200 men worldwide--carry a form of the Y chromosome that originated in Mongolia nearly 1,000 years ago. Today's unusual prevalence of this chromosomal variant is most likely the result of Genghis Khan's military success, the investigators say. Even more provocatively, the researchers suggest that Genghis Khan himself had this particular version of the Y.

Unlike other chromosomes, the Y exchanges little DNA with its partner, the X chromosome, when the sperm's DNA joins with the eggs. As a result, the Y chromosome retains a largely undisturbed record of mutations.

Using some 30 natural genetic markers, Chris Tyler-Smith of the University of Oxford in England and his colleagues classified the Y chromosomes of more than 2,100 men from locations across Asia. The markers included DNA deletions and insertions, as well as more subtle changes in the Y's DNA sequence. Other crucial markers were so-called microsatellites, regions of repetitive DNA that can expand or shrink from one generation to the next. findarticles.com...

This article is even more interesting:

Khan had a great many children, both with his wives and with other women. His sons, who expanded the Mongol Empire into Europe, had many children of their own. Although the empire broke up in the decades following Khan's death in 1227, his male descendants ruled large chunks of it for centuries. And like their ancestor, they had many children as well.

If the geneticists are right, Khan and his descendants spread his distinctive Y chromosome to about half a percent of the world's male population alive today, or some 16 million men. Strikingly, the region where almost all of those men live matches the boundaries of the old Mongol Empire.

Other kings appear to have achieved similar kinds of genetic success. Irish geneticists have discovered a marker carried by one in five men from northwestern Ireland. They also noticed something else these men shared in common: their last names.

People with certain Irish surnames, such as O'Neil, have long been thought to have descended from a dynasty of Irish kings known as Uí Néill. And the Uí Néill dynasty is traditionally thought to have been founded by a fifth-century warrior known as Niall of the Nine Hostages. Recent genetic studies suggest that Niall bequeathed his Y chromosome to over 2 million Irish men alive today.

...We'll never know exactly who first carried those adaptive genes. But ultimately that doesn't matter. It's the genes, not the people, who have achieved this kind of greatness. The starkest proof of this comes from a gene called microcephalin, which is involved in brain development. All humans carry some version of microcephalin. One version is far more common than the others, found in 70% of all people.

Recently scientists at the University of Chicago compared the different versions of microcephalin to figure out how long ago they all originated from a single ancestral gene. The answer was startling: over a million years ago--long before our species emerged. But weirder still, the most common version of microcephalin only began to spread 37,000 years ago. What was that version of microcephalin doing in the intervening time?

The best explanation for this finding is that the most common version of microcephalin in our species came to us from Neanderthals...

Their Neanderthal-human hybrid children carried genes from both species, but it appears that most of the genes from the Neanderthals gradually disappeared from the human gene pool.

Microcephalin was different, though. Humans who carried the Neanderthal version had more children than those who didn't, and the gene spread steadily.

Scientists don't yet know why this particular Neanderthal gene gave humans such a reproductive edge. But scientists do know that microcephalin helps build brains. Its name--which means "tiny head"--comes from the devastating birth defects that can be produced when the gene is crippled by a mutation.... www.forbes.com...

So next time some idiot in HR wants to know your ancestry you can safely list Neanderthal! And really screw up his filing system.

reply to post by crimvelvet


Neaderthal.

No, I see enough of what I classify as mindless barbarians, I prefer not to go there.

Thank you for chiming in more in depth.

I'm really enjoying this conversation so far within this thread.

It will be good to continue decidedly encouraging discourse.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

President Bush insists that we will prevail, yet as Unger so effectively concludes, "Never before has an American president been so closely tied to a foreign power that harbors and supports our country's mortal enemies."

That is not quite true. We have had traitors to the USA in the White House on a rather routine basis.

We can start with Colonel Edward Mandell House who literally lived in the White House as an advisor to President Woodrow Wilson. Col. House is the guy who helped to pick the charter members of the original Federal Reserve Board.

Edward Mandell House had this to say in a private meeting with President Woodrow Wilson:

“[Very] soon, every American will be required to register their biological property in a national system designed to keep track of the people and that will operate under the ancient system of pledging. By such methodology, we can compel people to submit to our agenda, which will effect our security as a chargeback for our fiat paper currency. Every American will be forced to register or suffer being unable to work and earn a living. They will be our chattel, and we will hold the security interest over them forever, by operation of the law merchant under the scheme of secured transactions.

Americans, by unknowingly or unwittingly delivering the bills of lading to us will be rendered bankrupt and insolvent, forever to remain economic slaves through taxation, secured by their pledges. They will be stripped of their rights and given a commercial value designed to make us a profit and they will be none the wiser, for not one man in a million could ever figure our plans and, if by accident one or two should figure it out, we have in our arsenal plausible deniability. After all, this is the only logical way to fund government, by floating liens and debt to the registrants in the form of benefits and privileges. This will inevitably reap to us huge profits beyond our wildest expectations and leave every American a contributor to this fraud which we will call “Social Insurance.” Without realizing it, every American will insure us for any loss we may incur and in this manner, every American will unknowingly be our servant, however begrudgingly. The people will become helpless and without any hope for their redemption and, we will employ the high office of the President of our dummy corporation to foment this plot against America.”

www.gemworld.com...

Rather a prophetic statement isn't it???

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


Speaking of Spies in the White House...
Let's move on to the "great and much admired" FDR... May he rot in the ninth circle of Hades!

Col House

F.D.R. - My Exploited Father-in-Law
by Curtis B. Dall
Pg. 111:
Harry Hopkins, to aid the internationalists' program, was planted in the White House by the Advisors after Louis Howe's death. Thus, Harry Hopkins became a "second Colonel House", close to FDR. Hopkins operated far more openly as an internationalist puppet, pointing to one world government via a long range strategy route, operating right from the White House....
www.thirdworldtraveler.com...

Dall, who was married to Franklin Roosevelt's daughter Anna, spent many nights at the White House and often guided FDR around in his wheelchair. He was also a partner at a Wall Street brokerage....

could not avoid several disheartening conclusions in his book. He portrays the legendary president not as a leader but as a "quarterback" with little actual power. The "coaching staff" consisted of a coterie of handlers ("advisers" like Louis Howe, Bernard Baruch and Harry Hopkins) who represented the international banking cartel. For Dall, FDR ultimately was a traitor manipulated by "World Money" ....

But FDR advisers Henry Morgenthau and Harry Dexter White arranged for U.S. treasury printing plates to be sent to Russia so the Communists could print their own US money. They arranged $8 billion in lend lease aid to Russia after the war was over. Col. Dall personally confronted Louis Howe over Russian agents he saw meeting Howe in the White House. FDR Advisors as Wall Street Bankers were for supporting Communism... hubpages.com...

Harry Dexter White was a soviet agent and a senior U.S. Treasury department official. He was the man behind the Bretton Woods Conference, that gave us of the World Bank and the IMF (International Monetary Fund). (This is where a lot of US tax payer money ends up including the "Bank Bailouts") hubpages.com...

The world Bank and IMF strong arm third world countries and are the cause of much suffering by the people and profit for the bankers and corporations. (Think "Confessions of an Economic" Hitman" by Perkins)

Structural Adjustment Program: www.whirledbank.org...

Letter of resignation from IMF: 'To me, resignation is a priceless liberation, for with it I have taken the first big step to that place where I may hope to wash my hands of what in my mind's eye is the blood of millions of poor and starving peoples. Mr. Camdessus, the blood is so much, you know, it runs in rivers.'

FDR was the President responsible for the confiscation of US citizen gold which he gave to the bankers. Excerpts from Congressman McFadden's Speeches:

..."Some people who think that the Federal Reserve Banks United States Government institutions. They are private monopolies which prey upon the people of these United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign customers;...

"These twelve private credit monopolies were deceitfully and disloyally foisted upon this Country by the bankers who came here from Europe and repaid us our hospitality by undermining our American institutions. Those bankers took money out of this Country to finance Japan in a war against Russia. They created a reign of terror in Russia with our money in order to help that war along. They instigated the separate peace between Germany and Russia, and thus drove a wedge between the allies in World War. They financed Trotsky's passage from New York to Russia so that he might assist in the destruction of the Russian Empire. They fomented and instigated the Russian Revolution, and placed a large fund of American dollars at Trotsky's disposal in one of their branch banks in Sweden so that through him Russian homes might be thoroughly broken up and Russian children flung far and wide from their natural protectors. They have since begun breaking up of American homes and the dispersal of American children. "Mr. Chairman, there should be no partisanship in matters concerning banking and currency affairs in this Country, and I do not speak with any.... www.apfn.net...

"By his unlawful usurpation of power on the night of March 5, 1933, and by his proclamation, which in my opinion was in violation of the Constitution of the United States, Roosevelt divorced the currency of the United States from gold, and the United States currency is no longer protected by gold. It is therefore sheer dishonesty to say that the people's gold is needed to protect the currency.

"Roosevelt ordered the people to give their gold to private interests- that is, to banks, and he took control of the banks so that all the gold and gold values in them, or given into them, might be handed over to the predatory International Bankers who own and control the Fed.

"Roosevelt cast his lot with the usurers. "He agreed to save the corrupt and dishonest at the expense of the people of the United States.

"He took advantage of the people's confusion and weariness and spread the dragnet over the United States to capture everything of value that was left in it. He made a great haul for the International Bankers.

"The Prime Minister of England came here for money! He came here to collect cash!

"He came here with Fed Currency and other claims against the Fed which England had bought up in all parts of the world. And he has presented them for redemption in gold.... home.hiwaay.net...

So what has happened to all the gold the citizen's gave to the US government???

The Great American Disaster: How Much Gold Remains In Fort Knox?

....The US dollar of August, 1971 is as of 2009 worth just over 18 cents, according to the Inflation Calculator. Thus, in purchasing power, the dollar has lost over 80% in the past 39 years.

Only foreigners were legally able to turn in their US dollars and get gold from the US Government from 1934 to 1971. August 15 of that year closed off that last power of convertibility.

In 1934, gold was confiscated from US citizens, melted from coins into bars, and gathered over the next few years into a new storage facility at Ft Knox, Kentucky....

The peak amount of gold held in Fort Knox reached 701 million ounces of gold. This was in 1949. This amount equaled 69.9% of all the gold in the world...

From then until 1972, at least 75% of official US gold left the nation in exchange for paper dollars which can be printed at will. However, I think the total amount of real gold which remains is even less. The exact amount that remains is now officially listed at 147.3 million ounces. From the peak, that is a decline of 79%....

When President Nixon closed the gold window exactly 39 years ago, Durell began hearing rumors that made him concerned about the amount and quality of the gold that remained in Fort Knox....

...on September 23, 1974 Mary Brooks, the Director of the US Mint, led six Congressmen and one Senator on a tour of Ft Knox. It was the first time since Franklin Roosevelt visited on April 28, 1943 that anyone except Mint and Treasury officials had been allowed inside of Ft Knox. Too my
knowledge, no outsider has been inside ever since.

The only audit that has ever been done of the gold inside Ft Knox was done days after Dwight Eisenhower became President in January of 1953...

The central problem was that it wasn't much of an audit. To sum it up:

1. Representatives of the audited group were allowed to make the rules governing the audit. No outside private experts were allowed.

2. Those government bureaucrats involved were inexperienced in their tasks, by their own admission.

3. The entire audit of the largest gold hoard ever concentrated in history lasted only seven days.

4. Only a fraction of the gold was actually tested. Later, the officials put this fraction at just 5%.

5. Based on that fraction, the official committee reported that, in their opinion, all the holdings would have matched their records if they'd all been tested.

6. If the audit was accurate, the fact remains that almost 80% of it went overseas in the coming years. If the audit was not accurate, the amount of gold lost could have been even more.

The shocking admission Ft Knox holds very little good delivery gold was made to Mr. Durell by the chief official of the General Accounting Office (GAO). This happened a few months after the September 1974 tour.

www.lewrockwell.com...

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


Last, we come to the "Much Loved" Bill Clinton with the blood of millions of starving children on his hands.

Let's start with his campaign Contributions:

Justice Department Investigation

• Overview: In late 1996, a Justice Department task force started investigating allegations of campaign fund-raising abuses by the Clinton reelection campaign. Critics accused Attorney General Janet Reno of botching the investigation and demanded that she appoint an independent counsel.....

Huang to Offer Guilty Plea
May 26, 1999
The Justice Department announced that John Huang has agreed to plead guilty to a single felony charge as part of an agreement that legal sources said promises that he will not be prosecuted in connection with his fund-raising for President Clinton.

Trie to Plead Guilty
May 22, 1999
Controversial fund-raiser Yah Lin "Charlie" Trie entered into a plea agreement with the Justice Department, winning leniency in exchange for telling all in an investigation of improper campaign contributions originating in China.

Not Chinese Agent, Chung Says
May 12, 1999
Former Democratic fund-raiser Johnny Chung told a congressional committee that he received $300,000 from a Chinese general interested in influencing the 1996 presidential election. But he insisted that he "never acted as an agent for the Chinese government."

You can read the rest HERE: www.washingtonpost.com...

At this point it should be noted that China has built its own "Fort Knox" and is amassing gold.


Clinton set up the present economic mess ON PURPOSE with the ratification of WTO, NAFTA, entry of China into the WTO, The “Freedom to Fail” 1996 Farm bill. He even admits it!

Today's global food crisis shows "we all blew it, including me when I was president," by treating food crops as commodities instead of as a vital right of the world's poor, Bill Clinton told a U.N. gathering on Thursday. UNITED NATIONS, Oct. 23, 2008

President Bill Clinton... publicly apologized last month for forcing Haiti to drop tariffs on imported, subsidized US rice during his time in office. The policy wiped out Haitian rice farming and seriously damaged Haiti’s ability to be self-sufficient. www.democracynow.org...

Clinton's signing of laws that repealed the McFadden Act of 1927, the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 and the Bank Holding Company Act of 1956 lead to the Formation of Mega Banks. He is also responsible for the Housing and Community Development Act of 1992 and the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 that was responsible for marginal mortgage loans doomed to fail and the unregulated CDSs used to insure the banks against foreclosure.

The housing market collapse lead to a drastic drop in land prices and no buyers. It is absolutely NO coincidence that the Food Safety Modernization Act of 2010, guaranteeing the loss of America's independent farmers and Obamacare containing the 1099 change severely hampering small business growth and formation were just passed.

The idea is to force farmers to sell their land at rock bottom prices because they can no longer afford to keep the land or keep farming. 40% of the USA is rich farm land. Most pays low property taxes. If farmers can not farm they can not afford the taxes. If they do try to keep farming they will lose the land to fines by the US government.

To give you an idea of what farmers are facing in 2012, this is from HR 875.and is cut and paste directly from HR 875 with nothing added.

Civil Penalty
(A) IN GENERAL- Any person that commits an act that violates the food safety law (including a regulation promulgated or order issued under the food safety law) may be assessed a civil penalty by the Administrator of not more than $1,000,000 for each such
B) SEPARATE OFFENSE- Each act described in subparagraph (A) and each day during which that act continues shall be considered a separate offense.

Criminal Sanctions-
(1) OFFENSE RESULTING IN SERIOUS ILLNESS- Notwithstanding section 303(a) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (21 U.S.C. 333(a)), if a violation of any provision of section 301 of such Act (21 U.S.C. 301) with respect to an adulterated or misbranded food results in serious illness, the person committing the violation shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, fined in accordance with title 18, United States Code, or both.
(2) OFFENSE RESULTING IN DEATH- Notwithstanding section 303(a) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (21 U.S.C. 333(a)), if a violation of any provision of section 301 of such Act (21 U.S.C. 331) with respect to an adulterated or misbranded food results in death, the person committing the violation shall be imprisoned for not more than 10 years, fined in accordance with title 18, United States Code, or both.
... each food production facility to have a written food safety plan that describes the likely hazards and preventive controls implemented to address those hazards;

include, with respect to growing, harvesting, sorting, and storage operations, minimum standards related to fertilizer use, nutrients, hygiene, packaging, temperature controls, animal encroachment, and water

include, with respect to animals raised for food, minimum standards related to the animal's health, feed, and environment which bear on the safety of food for human consumption

Over 40% of the US land mass is farmland and Clinton and his buddies have other plans for it. Al Gore even stated: "our production agriculture is being shifted out of the U.S. to the Third World."

If you want to know what the plans for all that land is you might also like to look into the UN Bio-Diversity Treaty ratified by Clinton. Also look at a Wildlands bills that almost made it through Congress during Clinton's Admin. It wipes out land ownership in the USA and moves the population to a tiny portion of the land - the Green areas on the MAP.

Congressional Record S13790, Friday, September 30, 1994. OPPOSING CONSIDERATION OF THE CONVENTION ON BIO-DIVERSITY

One of Bill Clinton's most insidious executive orders was EO 12986, which was issued on January 9, 1996. The decree extended immunity from lawsuits to the International Union for the Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources, IUCN, which is an accredited scientific advisory body to United Nations. The IUCN has more than 880 affiliates in 133 countries, including scores of state and federal governmental agencies and non-government organizations in the U.S. that seek to promote "alternative model for sustainable communities and lifestyles, based on ecospiritual practices and principles." Toward that end, the IUCN created the "Wildlands Project," a scheme to transform at least one-half the surface area of the continental United States into a vast "eco-park" purged of modern industry and private property.

The Wildlands project was to be incorporated as part of the United Nations Convention on Biodiversity, which was signed by Bill Clinton in July 1995. One month later, the Environmental Protection Agency issued a directive instructing "Natural resource and environmental agencies" to develop "a joint strategy to help the United States fulfill its existing obligations (e.g. Convention on Biodiversity, Agenda 21 ). Agenda 21... www.bitterroot.com...

WHO does Clinton actually owes allegiance to?

Cecil Rhodes, one of the wealthiest men in the world, left Leopold de Rothschild (1845-1917) to administered his estate after his death in 1902 and set up the Rhodes Scholarship. Leo was the youngest son of of Nathan Mayer Rothschild.

Before Tony Blair became British Prime Minister in May 1997, he was Chairman of the Fabian Society...

...the Rhodes Scholarship Program at Oxford to indoctrinate promising young graduates for the purpose, and also establish a secret society for leading business and banking leaders around the world who would work for the City to bring in their Socialist world government.

Rothschild appointed Lord Alfred Milner to implement the plan.

At first the society was called Milner's Kindergarten, then in 1909 it came to be called The RoundTable.

It was to work closely with the London School of Economics founded in 1894 by Fabian Socialist leader Sidney Webb (Lord Passfield).

Today former Rhodes Scholars (such as Bill Clinton), Fabian Business Round Table members, and graduates from the London School of Economics (the primary Fabian Socialist training school in the world) dominate the global banking, business and political systems in every country...

The British Fabian Society plan to takeover the world by the City of London financial community was first published in a book entitled "All These Things" by a New Zealand author and journalist, A. N. Field....

Centered around City of London ...the Bankers Industrial Development Company, the essence of the document "Freedom and Planning" was (and still is) to gradually"Sovietize" the world based on their "Five Year Plan" inaugurated in Moscow in 1927-28 in the Soviet Union.

Basically the plan involved the subtle transfer of the entire productive capacity of each country throughout the world into a series of great "State-owned" departments, which would then be "corporatized", then "privatized" to City of London Corporation International banks and corporations which they control.

Individual property ownership would be severely restricted, with most of the land, sea, fisheries, rivers, lakes, ports, railways, communications, media, roads, electricity, energy, food, water, waste management, housing, farms, commercial property, schools, hospitals, police, social welfare, Inland Revenue etc. transferred into statutory corporations, companies or land trusts which indirectly would be owned by City of London banks.

The"peasants" would still be allowed to own their own clothes, and small assets like furniture, cars and boats etc., but the main assets of each country would be owned by their multi-national corporations and banks. www.halisa-eu.net...

Sure sounds like Col. House in the first of my three posts!

Col. House Fabian Society Connection:

...The story of the British connection to the Council on Foreign Relations may be traced back to George Peabody, J.P. Morgan, Andrew Carnegie, Nicholas M. Butler and Col. Edward House -- all who may be described a British loyalists. A Secret Society was established by Cecil Rhodes in connection with Rothschild, Morgan, Carnegie, and Rockefeller. A small highly secret group called the Round Table directed operations...

A Texan named House was a key individual before and during the Wilson administration. He helped establish the income tax, the Federal Reserve System, coined the phrase "league of nations," drafted the covenant for the League of Nations and presided over the creation of the Council on Foreign Relations (C.F.R.).

Col. Edward M. House (the title came from a Texas Governor) inherited a fortune estimated at around $1.5 million. He was born in Houston, Texas -- the son of a wealthy planter and banker. (38) Originally the House ("Huis") family was Dutch. House's family had lived in England for 300 years before his father came to Texas. (39) Thomas William House came to Texas to fight under Sam Houston and was an American agent for London Banking interests "said by some to the House of Rothschild..." (40) Edward House attended school in England for several years as a young boy: "Much of his youth and adult life was spent in the British Isles, which he regularly visited." (41) The elder House said he wanted to raise his sons to "know and serve England." (42) House surrounded himself with prominent members of the Fabian Society. (43) Between 1892 and 1902 he elected four Texas Governors. (44)

In the winter of 1911-1912, House wrote Philip Dru: Administrator. House said he was working for "Socialism as dreamed of by Karl Marx..." The book was a fictional plan for the conquest of America by gaining control of both the Republican and Democratic parties and using them to create a socialist world government.... www.sweetliberty.org...

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
People are not born the way they are.

If they are born deformed, yes, this is something I agree with.

Being homosexual however is a choice.

And there it is. The real reason for your odd wording. The "blinking red warning lights" don't lie.

Such an insightful in-depth post - - - - and then this archaic belief. Such a shame.

EDIT TO ADD: I agree you can choose your behavior - - but not your "hard wiring". I support the sliding scale theory - - and that most people are closer to the middle. However - - in the 20+ years I've been following gay information - - - even bi-sexuals I've talked to state they do have an orientation to one gender or the other.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

Your limiting this to someone being born into homosexuality makes it sound as if a man does not have a choice in seeking male or female, they might just be born that way

Research shows that there are biological components to homosexuality. For example:

Using a strict criterion for determining homosexual orientation, the researchers found a concordance rate (the percentage of pairs in which both twins are homosexual) of 20% among identical male twins and 0% among pairs of male fraternal twins. The corresponding rates for female identical and fraternal pairs were 24% and 10.5%, respectively (Bailey et al., 2000). The markedly higher concordance rates for identical twin pairs provide strong evidence of a genetic component to sexual orientation in some individuals.

Prenatal levels of sex hormones have a masculinizing or feminizing influence on the developing fetal brain. Laboratory research on animals has demonstrated that hormones given prenatally can masculinize female fetuses and feminize male fetuses, which results in same-sex social and mating behavior when the animals mature (Vandenberg, 2003). Other prenatal conditions besides hormone levels probably influence development of sexual orientation (Lippa, 2003; Rahman & Wilson, 2003).

Sexuality Textbook

Most likely, sexual orientation is determined by a combination of biological, developmental, and social influences. Being homosexual is no more of a choice than is being schizophrenic or clinically depressed, in the sense that even though experiences may play a role in it’s onset, that doesn’t mean that it’s a choice.

A construction worker is not born wearing a hard-hat and boots.

His father might have been a construction worker and he took after his father.

You seem to believe that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice. It’s not, it’s sexual attraction. Even if you wanted to, you wouldn’t be able to choose to be attracted to men. It’s not a matter of wanting to go out and rebel and have sex with other males just to do it, it’s a matter of biological orientation.

If you can’t consciously choose who you’re attracted to, then it’s not a choice. It’s only possible to agree or disagree with opinions or beliefs, like lifestyles or religions, not biological predispositions.

Or was I born a right-wing Christian with my head up my ass?

Beliefs are not biological or chemical. Sexual attraction is.

It is instead our experiences which make us into the individuals we become.

Yes, to a certain extent, but you can’t deny that biological or genetic factors may play a role in that as well.

Someone can come back from war and develop PTSD. Yes, it’s an experience that shapes who they are, but that doesn’t mean it was a choice they made. I don’t hear anybody saying that they don’t believe in PTSD.

reply to post by crimvelvet


You do realize the first portion you quoted was the Amazon book review, right?

That is the book authors assertion, not mine, careful there with reading quotes.

We have had many, many traitors in the White House, every President who was Skull and Bones.

If they chose their Secret Society over their Oath of Office as President.

According to The Order, or more commonly known, Skull and Bones their oath supercedes all oaths before and after their loyalty to their secret brotherhood, which makes an Oath of Office as President null and void.

So, in essence, any President who swore their oath as President, was lying, and instead loyal elsewhere.

Typical.

This is why no honest politician, if there is such a thing, will ever make it to the Presidency.

To gain that lofty office the person have to in essence commit treason against America.

Swearing an oath to a secret organization, nulling out an oath, like the Presidency, is treason.

reply to post by crimvelvet


Ah yes, treason is afoot, and the White House was a part of it.

Let us not forget those heroes who stopped treason in F.D.R.'s White House though.

None other than Smedley Butler, the hard-charging, "Fighting Quaker".

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fd136c068568.jpg[/atsimg]

Quote from : Wikipedia : Smedley Butler

Smedley Darlington Butler (July 30, 1881 – June 21, 1940), nicknamed "The Fighting Quaker" and "Old Gimlet Eye", was a Major General in the U.S. Marine Corps, and at the time of his death the most decorated Marine in U.S. history.

During his 34-year career as a Marine, he participated in military actions in the Philippines, China, in Central America and the Caribbean during the Banana Wars, and France in World War I.

By the end of his career he had received 16 medals, five of which were for heroism.

He is one of 19 people to twice receive the Medal of Honor, one of three to be awarded both the Marine Corps Brevet Medal and the Medal of Honor, and the only person to be awarded the Brevet Medal and two Medals of Honor, all for separate actions.

In addition to his military achievements, he served as the Director of Public Safety in Philadelphia for two years and was an outspoken critic of U.S. military adventurism.

In his 1935 book War is a Racket, he described the workings of the military-industrial complex and, after retiring from service, became a popular speaker at meetings organized by veterans, pacifists and church groups in the 1930s.

In 1934 he was involved in a controversy known as the Business Plot when he told a congressional committee that a group of wealthy industrialists had approached him to lead a military coup to overthrow Franklin D. Roosevelt.

He lead the charge to stop treason and a coup against the White House.

War is a Racket: The Antiwar Classic by America's Most Decorated Soldier

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fe7a69a5e2f5.jpg[/atsimg]

Amazon Review :

Originally printed in 1935, War Is a Racket is General Smedley Butler's frank speech describing his role as a soldier as nothing more than serving as a puppet for big-business interests.

In addition to photos from the notorious 1932 anti-war book The Horror of It by Frederick A. Barber, this book includes two never-before-published anti-interventionist essays by General Butler.

The introduction discusses why General Butler went against the corporate war machine and how he exposed a fascist coup d'etat plot against President Franklin Roosevelt.

Widely appreciated and referenced by left- and right-wingers alike, this is an extraordinary argument against war - more relevant now than ever.

If not for Butler, the plans of these men was to have Fascist Concentration Camps, dotting the American countryside.

To match those Nazi Concenrtration Camps dotting all over Europe.

While yes, F.D.R. practiced "never let one hand know what the other is doing", he was almost overthrown.

And by the wrong people.

People tied in fact to Nazi Germany with disastrous plans for America.

Some of those same said people, at least their businesses, still exist to this day.

Never dismantled for treason, nor torn asunder, in fact absorbed in Government instead.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
People are not born the way they are.

If they are born deformed, yes, this is something I agree with.

Being homosexual however is a choice.

And there it is. The real reason for your odd wording. The "blinking red warning lights" don't lie.

Such an insightful in-depth post - - - - and then this archaic belief. Such a shame.

EDIT TO ADD: I agree you can choose your behavior - - but not your "hard wiring". I support the sliding scale theory - - and that most people are closer to the middle. However - - in the 20+ years I've been following gay information - - - even bi-sexuals I've talked to state they do have an orientation to one gender or the other.

edit on 26-3-2011 by Annee because: (no reason given)

Orientation is just another way of saying programming.

For someone nitpicking over choices of wording you sure pick odd wording.

Which particular definition are you using for "orientation" there?

Quote from : Dictionary.com : Orientation

1.the act or process of orienting.

2. the state of being oriented.

3. an introduction, as to guide one in adjusting to new surroundings, employment, activity, or the like: New employees receive two days of orientation.

4. Psychology, Psychiatry . the ability to locate oneself in one's environment with reference to time, place, and people.

5. one's position in relation to true north, to points on the compass, or to a specific place or object.

6. the ascertainment of one's true position, as in a novel situation, with respect to attitudes, judgments, etc.

7. Chemistry .

a. the relative positions of certain atoms or groups, especially in aromatic compounds.

b. the determination of the position of substituted atoms or groups in a compound.

All of those definitions fit into programming, as in being directed, or ushered into a choice.

Even chemicals influence those choices or L.S.D. would never work in programming assassins.

Of course there is another set of words used to describe "programming".

Quote from : Wikipedia : Mind Control

Mind control (also known as brainwashing, coercive persuasion, mind abuse, thought control, or thought reform) refers to a process in which a group or individual "systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated".

The term has been applied to any tactic, psychological or otherwise, which can be seen as subverting an individual's sense of control over their own thinking, behavior, emotions or decision making.

Theories of brainwashing and of mind control were originally developed to explain how totalitarian regimes appeared to succeed in systematically indoctrinating prisoners of war through propaganda and torture techniques.

So, which is it, "orientation", or mind control?

You started nitpicking word choice.

Instead of choosing to agree to disagree you trying stating "archaic beliefs".

"Such a shame" like I am not worth debating because I do not choose to believe your views.

My views have changed over the almost four decades I've been alive.

I am open-minded enough to admit I do not know everything.

But to be talked down to because of a choice of wording is almost an insult.

So, according to your belief system, someone has to believe your views, or they're wrong?

And to the exact wording?

How boring.

Kind of judgmental there Annee.

I choose to say the words I use due to my education, my experiences, and my views.

While I certainly disagree with your particular stance, the sliding scale, I do respect your views.

Even if you do not respect mine.

Agree to disagree.

That's fine.

reply to post by Epiphron


Sorry, I concurrently disagree, I see it as a choice.

Yes, biology has a factor, yes environment has something to do with it, being around it.

Like Annee, "orientation", is a type of programming.

Sexual orientation, a direction of leaning one way, or perhaps another.

Yes, developmental is a part of it, a factor indeed.

But, a choice still had to be made, male persuing female, or male persuing male.

Or female persuing male, or even female persuin female, a choice for the very first time.

And of course I spoke of being born into the wrong body through transsexualism.

I've seen male or females who struck me as being the opposite sex.

Whether an effeminate male or masculine female it could be environment, it could be hormones and chemical imbalances, or perhaps the soul was supposed to be one gender, and landed into a different gendered body, or even a doctor delivered a baby with two sets of genitalia, and decided which one and cut off the penis or sewed up the vagina.

All of these are factors but a choice has to come into play somewhere.

Attraction certainly has a play in it as well.

If I am not attracted to males, being male, I will seek female companionship.

If I were attracted to males, I would seek male companionship, at least for the first time.

What about females or males experimenting with the same sex?

But they choose to stay with the opposite sex?

Curiosity has an influence of course.

And a P.T.S.D. suffering vet who climbs in a clock tower with a sniper rifle has to choose to pull the trigger.

Unless he is mentally distubred, gone off the deep end due to no medication, or perhaps programmed through MK-ULTRA.

You can fight choices, instinct, and beliefs.

Many people do it in fact.

Fight or flight is one such instance.

A mother might step in front of a car to save her child.

Or the same mother might be scared and let her child die.

If it were just a choice though then those people who deprogram would not succeed.

People can break patterns even if they're predispositioned to go one way.

With or without assistance.

No, I am not stating I believe homosexual, or heterosexual people need or even necessarily want to be deprogrammed, although some families, friends, and loved ones might be ignorant enough to believe that, but there are as well people out there just narrowminded enough to demand it of people even if they are not actually within a cult.

But living a lifestyle or believing a certain way, or according to you, predispositioned is not a cult.

Life is about choices, not all of them are good or bad, not all of them are right or wrong.

Yes, chemically, or "hard-wiring" might influence those choices, but those can be fought.

Or even fought for.

If someone wants to do it.

If they know how to do it.

If they even realize they made a choice or did not.

Not making a choice is still a choice.

The original intent of the thread was discussing spycraft.

The original intent of the thread was discussing being homosexual.

The original intent of the thread was discussing the subversive government element.

The original intent of the thread was discussing espionage.

Not one or another but all of the above.

While I will certainly debate the merits of Annee and your views sticking to one particular area narrows the scope of the thread itself, and turns this into a debate about sexuality, homosexuality, and lesbianism, which I have no problem debating with anyone, but the overall intent of the thread was built around discussing those Government's, organizations, or agencies, and their uses of subversion of the self against people in order to gain and or collect sensitive, classified information, or commit acts of treason, because of their views and or beliefs and the repression which builds that inherent hiding of someone's choices, whether "hard-wired" or not, they then turn around and choose to commit said treason, espionage, and or murder to keep their own secrets hidden instead of other repercussions.

When one person, or even many, live within society they either accept it or deny it.

If all of society said heterosexuality was the only way people would rebel.

If all of society said homosexuality was the only way people would rebel.

Instead we are a mixture of beliefs throughout society.

The Bible teaches homosexuality and lesbianism is bad.

I say it says so much more than that.

It says through content, context, and intent that homosexuality or lesbianism will stifle the gene pool.

As in if everyone practiced same-sex marriage society would eventually dwindle to nothing.

This is of course back when the known society of the Hebrew nation may not have numbered more than 10, 20, or 30,000 people, or more, or less, and stifling and or stagnating the gene pool could have actually and eventually become detrimental.

And wipe out a race of people.

Now we have test tube babies, wars which kill off people through population control, and more disease and famine, or more education of it, and the ability to fight it off by going to the doctor and seeking medication, or surgery, or whatever.

Because of the expansion of the population and gene pool.

It takes one person, organization, or Government to see one view.

It takes one person, organization, or Government to see another view.

It takes one person, organization, or Government to exploit those differences.

It is the dynamic of that which is important.

Sexual choice, sexual orientation, or sexual hard-wiring or not it still happens.

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
Like Annee, "orientation", is a type of programming.

NO NO NO - - No its not.

I use orientation because it is the preferred term of gays - - - who are adamantly opposed to the term "Life Style".

Did you just ignore/skip over that I stated gender attraction is Hard Wired?

I stated that even those who consider themselves BI - - - are not truly BI in their Hard Wired orientation - - meaning they are born with attraction to one gender or the other - - - but choose their behavior of being BI.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

But, a choice still had to be made, male persuing female, or male persuing male.

I still don’t think you are understanding the biological basis of attraction. It’s not a conscious decision. There are several factors that determine our sexual orientation and we have no direct control over it.

Biology and sexual orientation is the subject of research into the role of biology in the development of human sexual orientation. No simple, single cause for sexual orientation has been conclusively demonstrated, but research suggests that it is by a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences,[1] with biological factors involving a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment.[2] Biological factors which may be related to the development of a heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual or asexual orientation include genes, prenatal hormones, and brain structure.

WIkipedia - Biology and Sexual Orientation

Your insistence that it all comes down to a choice of whichever sex we want to be attracted to is naively simplistic and goes against scientific knowledge on the subject.

our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation."[30]

I highly recommend you read that wikipedia article. It's very informative and covers the research that has been done on the subject.

Yes, chemically, or "hard-wiring" might influence those choices, but those can be fought.

Nope, not true. It’s been tried before.

William Reiner, a psychiatrist and urologist with the University of Oklahoma has evaluated more than a hundred cases of children born with sexual differentiation disorders. In the 1960s and 70s, it was common in developed countries for doctors to castrate boys born with a micropenis and have them raised as girls. However, this practice has come under attack, because even though these boys were raised as girls, they nearly all report as adults that they are sexually attracted to women. This suggests that their sexual orientation was determined at birth. The only cases Reiner found where children born with a X and Y chromosome are attracted to males as adults were those where testosterone receptors were absent, which prevented the male sex hormones from masculinizing the fetus.

Having looked at the Reiner and Meyer studies, we in the Johns Hopkins Psychiatry Department eventually concluded that human sexual identity is mostly built into our constitution by the genes we inherit and the embryogenesis we undergo."
McHugh says "I have witnessed a great deal of damage from sex-reassignment. The children transformed from their male constitution into female roles suffered prolonged distress and misery as they sensed their natural attitudes. ... We have wasted scientific and technical resources and damaged our professional credibility by collaborating with madness rather than trying to study, cure, and ultimately prevent it."

Sexual Reassignment

The reason there is so much contention and debate over homosexuality is simply because most people are misinformed. Ignorance is what's perpetuating discrimination and intolerance. Instead of adopting beliefs based on personal experience, it’s much wiser to look at scientific evidence and go off of that.

Not making a choice is still a choice.

Okay, so by your logic, you made a choice to be male? Why didn’t you choose to be female?

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas

So, according to your belief system, someone has to believe your views, or they're wrong?

Has nothing to do with my belief system or view. Still believing that gay is a choice IS archaic.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
Like Annee, "orientation", is a type of programming.

NO NO NO - - No its not.

I use orientation because it is the preferred term of gays - - - who are adamantly opposed to the term "Life Style".

Did you just ignore/skip over that I stated gender attraction is Hard Wired?

I stated that even those who consider themselves BI - - - are not truly BI in their Hard Wired orientation - - meaning they are born with attraction to one gender or the other - - - but choose their behavior of being BI.

So, all gays, hate the word lable "lifestyle"?

Or just some of them?

Perhaps in your experience?

You cannot speak for the entire population of homosexual or lesbians in the world.

Unless you're in contact with every single one around the world.

As I stated to Epiphron the topic is not just about homosexuality and or lesbianism.

And, no, I did not skip over anything.

I did tell you I disagreed with you, and agree to disagree, you have not suppled any evidence to sway me.

I am discussing this particular aspect with you in detail.

Even if it sways the scope to a narrower focus but we need to go towards the entire thread topic.

Not just one tiny section of it.

Do you think people, organizations, or Government's perhaps exclude homosexual or lesbians due to the original premise, or that they hide their sexual proclivities due to predjudices, and judgments, and or do other people, organizations, and or Government's perhaps utilize this as a leverage point of blackmail towards the end of gaining classified information with regards to espionage?

Or is that something you disagree with?

Narrowing the focus because of our disagreement of viewpoints only turns this into a pro/con discussion.

Which is completely boring as Hell and a waste of my time.

Sorry, I was trying to make this a different thread, where civil discussion happened.

Without limiting it to those supporting or hating homosexuals or lesbians.

I can go fling poo all I want back in the trees with monkeys but I crave intelligent discussion.

When it comes down to our disagreement of viewpoints it ends up becoming semantics.

And nothing more.

Splitting hairs just to split hairs and nothing more.

I still disagree with choice and lifestyle and respect your right to disagree with me.

I chose to be straight, just as I could choose to experiment with men, or I could choose to be bi-sexual.

Top, bottom, dominant, submissive, switch, sex is sex if someone just wants pleasure.

However, the topic is not just sexual orientation, but the elements as above.

Subversion of self.

Subversion of Government.

Subversion through espionage.

And as well those who would influence, manipulate, and or blackmail someone because they're different.

Why else would I start this thread off with a discussion about sex and the Eastern and Western mind?

And submit a book on multiple orgasm for men, a book on Chinese spying, and Russian subversive behaviors.

It is an all encompassing discussion and a diverse topic.

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
While I will certainly debate the merits of Annee and your views sticking to one particular area narrows the scope of the thread itself, and turns this into a debate about sexuality, homosexuality, and lesbianism, which I have no problem debating with anyone, but the overall intent of the thread was built around discussing those Government's, organizations, or agencies, and their uses of subversion of the self against people in order to gain and or collect sensitive, classified information, or commit acts of treason, because of their views and or beliefs and the repression which builds that inherent hiding of someone's choices, whether "hard-wired" or not, they then turn around and choose to commit said treason, espionage, and or murder to keep their own secrets hidden instead of other repercussions.

Spycraft - - as in the game?

Is homosexuality really a part of that game? If it is - - they should have accurate scientific data.

I find it pathetic using this minority group - - with current fights for their rights going on - - as entertainment in an espionage game.

What did you expect using Homosexual in your thread title?

reply to post by Epiphron

....I still don’t think you are understanding the biological basis of attraction. It’s not a conscious decision. There are several factors that determine our sexual orientation and we have no direct control over it.....

The information you bring up is rather interesting.

As I stated, from the point of view of the species as a whole same sex orientation is a evolutionary dead end.

You also showed an article that seems to indicate the mother's hormone levels have a lot of influence on the sexual orientation.

This make me wonder if "crowding" or changes in the foods eaten are effecting the hormone levels of the mother.

In a crowding situation same sex orientation would have an evolutionary advantage for the species because it would limit population growth while still producing "food gatherers"

It would be a rather interesting study....

reply to post by Annee

Spycraft - - as in the game?

Is homosexuality really a part of that game? If it is - - they should have accurate scientific data.

I find it pathetic using this minority group - - with current fights for their rights going on - - as entertainment in an espionage game....

Foreign enemies use what ever "handles" they can find to subvert key people. Homosexuality is a biggie, adultry, drug use and gambling are other traditional "handles"

This is one of the reasons secret clearance checks of people in sensitive positions are so through. You want to uncover the weakness BEFORE the enemy does.

" the game" is a term used within the security field and does not refer to people playing games like "go fish" but games of "Chess" with real live pawns - like us and our nations.

Originally posted by crimvelvet
In a crowding situation same sex orientation would have an evolutionary advantage for the species because it would limit population growth while still producing "food gatherers"

It would be a rather interesting study....

Just a point. There is nothing wrong with a homosexual reproductive system. They have been producing offspring for centuries - - with the opposite gender. But - how would you feel if you had to have sex with same gender to fit into society?

Heteros choosing not to reproduce - - is the same as Homosexuals - - no longer living a lie. Both can reproduce if they choose.