Spycraft : Being Homosexual, the Subversive Government Element, and Espionage...

Many American citizens decry homosexuality as a sin against God.

Just as many American citizens demand their rights which they see as denied.

Because of being labeled as a homosexual, lesbian, or "alternative lifestyle".

Both sides of the conflict need to shut the Hell up about it.

Gay people fight for their rights and religiously intolerant people deny those rights.

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It is not one side, or another, it is in fact both sides being quite ignorant.

They do however have the right to share their viewpoints in society, politics, and elsewhere.

Personally, I think Government needs to stay out of everyone's bedroom, and or closet.

I do not believe the Federal Government should have any right, any legislation, or say in what you do, or do not do in your bedroom.

When a Government becomes that nosey they are far too powerful.

But why do so-called Christians hate them so much and why is this a "survival issue"?

The Science of Fear: Why We Fear the Things We Shouldn't--and Put Ourselves in Greater Danger

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Publishers Weekly : Amazon Review :

Gardner, a columnist and senior writer for the Ottawa Citizen, is both matter-of-fact and entertaining in this look at fear and how it shapes our lives.

Although we are capable of reason, says Gardner, we often rely instead on intuitive snap judgments.

We also assume instinctively, but incorrectly, that if examples of something can be recalled easily, that thing must be common.

And what is more memorable than headlines and news programs blaring horrible crimes and diseases, plane crashes and terrorist attacks?

In fact, such events are rare, but their media omnipresence activates a gut-level fear response that is out of proportion to the likelihood of our going through such an event.

It doesn't help that scientific data and statistics are often misunderstood and misused and that our risk assessment is influenced less by the facts than by how others respond.

Gardner's vivid, direct style, backed up by clear examples and solid data from science and psychology, brings a breath of fresh air and common sense to an emotional topic.

(June) Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc.

All rights reserved.

Fear.

Yes, you heard me right, fear.

And among other things, bigotry, ignorance, and or a lack of comprehension.

As a great man once said...

F.D.R.'s First Inaugural Speech: Nothing to fear


But what if in fact that fear is exactly what we have to fear?

Fear of someone different.

Fear of someone willing to do something treasonous?

Fear of espionage not because of who we are but because of who someone else is in fact?

Quote from : Wikipedia : Espionage

Espionage or spying involves an individual obtaining information that is considered secret or confidential without the permission of the holder of the information.

Espionage is inherently clandestine, lest the legitimate holder of the information change plans or take other countermeasures once it is known that the information is in unauthorized hands.

Espionage is usually part of an institutional effort by a government or corporation, and the term is most readily associated with state spying on potential or actual enemies, primarily for military purposes.

Spying involving corporations is known as industrial espionage.

One of the most effective ways to compile information about an enemy (or potential enemy) is by infiltrating the enemy's ranks.

This is the job of the spy.

Spies can bring back all sorts of information concerning the size and strength of an enemy army.

They can also find dissidents within the enemy's forces and influence them to defect.

In times of crisis, spies can also be used to steal technology and to sabotage the enemy in various ways.

Counterintelligence operatives can feed false information to enemy spies, protecting important domestic secrets and preventing attempts at subversion.

Nearly every society has very strict laws concerning espionage, and the penalty for being caught is often death.

However, the benefits that can be gained through espionage are generally felt to outweigh the risks.

See clandestine HUMINT for the basic concepts of such information collection, and subordinate articles such as clandestine HUMINT operational techniques and clandestine HUMINT asset recruiting for discussions of the tradecraft used to collect this information.

This is not a simple exaplantion, nor is it in fact a clear and easily distinguishable fact.

Because it is in fact a very complex, diverse, and sadly heated issue in particular.

Under a current law a marriage is seen as a man and a woman by the U.S. Federal Government.

Quote from : Wikipedia : Defense of Marriage Act

The Defense of Marriage Act (Pub.L. 104-199, 110 Stat. 2419, enacted September 21, 1996, 1 U.S.C. § 7 and 28 U.S.C. § 1738C) is a United States federal law signed into law by President Bill Clinton on September 21, 1996 whereby the federal government defines marriage as a legal union between one man and one woman.

Under the law, also known as DOMA, no state (or other political subdivision within the United States) may be required to recognize as a marriage a same-sex relationship considered a marriage in another state.

The law passed both houses of Congress by large majorities.

That is according to U.S. law passed through Congress.

It is however not my thought on a domestic partnership in the least.

Before I go further I will state a disclaimer.

I am a single, white, heterosexual male, highly educated, both street smarts and book smarts.

I was raised under a Christian household with very Conservative views on marriage and family.

I would be what you might define as a right-wing extremist by the age of 18.

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I am however now 37 and I learned to lean the other way so to speak.

No, not from heterosexual, into homosexual proclivities, but towards the left-wing attitude.

Meanwhile, I am a registered Independent, and see both sides of the conflict as wrong.

This thread is an examination into the mindset of the Eastern verses Western mindset.

Through the eyes of survivability and dashing into espionage when and where it has happened.

The Multi-Orgasmic Man: Sexual Secrets Every Man Should Know (Paperback)

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According to many books in particular, but the one above, specifically, the Western mind is repressed.

Sexually.

Being raised within the Western world but understanding the Eastern mind I tend to agree.

Understanding the Art of War as I do I can see just how we, the West, after having originated due to an emasse migration of Puritanistic people who were persecuted in Europe, for this is how the foundation of America happened, repressed people were shunned, stigmatized, and treated as not welcome in Europe and essentially migrated into what was then seen as the "New World".

Quote from : Wikipedia : Puritan Migration to New England

The Puritan migration to New England was very marked in its effects in the two decades from 1620 to 1640, after which it declined sharply for a while.

The term Great Migration usually refers to the migration in this period of English settlers, primarily Puritans to Massachusetts and the warm islands of the West Indies, especially the sugar rich island of Barbados, 1630-40.

They came in family groups, rather than as isolated individuals and were motivated chiefly by a quest for freedom to practice their Puritan religion.

...

King James I of England made some efforts to reconcile the Puritan clergy in England, who had been alienated by the conservatism blocking reform in the Church of England.

Puritans adopted Calvinism (Reformed theology) with its de-emphasis on ritual and an emphasis on preaching, a growing sabbatarianism, and preference for a presbyterian system of church polity.

They opposed religious practices in the Church that at any point came close to Roman Catholic ritual.

This is a large part of how the founding of our nation happened due to religious persecutiong.

Quote from : Wikipedia : Puritan Migration to New England : Relgious Freedom and Tolerance

The Puritans created a deeply religious, socially tight-knit, and politically innovative culture that is still present in the modern United States.

They hoped this new land would serve as a "redeemer nation."

They fled England and in America attempted to create a "nation of saints": an intensely religious, thoroughly righteous community designed to be an example for all of Europe.

Roger Williams, who preached religious toleration, separation of Church and State, and a complete break with the Church of England, was banished and founded Rhode Island Colony, which became a haven for other refugees from the Puritan community, such as Anne Hutchinson.

Quakers were brutally expelled from Massachusetts, but they were welcomed in Rhode Island.

I am neither defending nor denouncing heterosexual or homosexual's to this point.

However, I will say that according to the Bible, it says "be fruitful and multiply".

According to the Bible and a mandate brought about because of a proclamation, God, or "God" if you choose not to believe, wanted people to procreate, in order to increase the populace of the Hebrew nation, remember the Old Testament had to do more with Talmudic Law then after the birth of the "Savior", Jesus Christ.

Quote from : Wikipedia : Talmud

The Talmud (Hebrew: תַּלְמוּד talmūd "instruction, learning", from a root lmd "teach, study") is a central text of mainstream Judaism, in the form of a record of rabbinic discussions pertaining to Jewish law, ethics, philosophy, customs and history.

The Talmud has two components: the Mishnah (c. 200 CE), the first written compendium of Judaism's Oral Law; and the Gemara (c. 500 CE), a discussion of the Mishnah and related Tannaitic writings that often ventures onto other subjects and expounds broadly on the Tanakh.

The terms Talmud and Gemara are often used interchangeably.

The Gemara is the basis for all codes of rabbinic law and is much quoted in other rabbinic literature.

The whole Talmud is also traditionally referred to as Shas (ש"ס), a Hebrew abbreviation of shisha sedarim, the "six orders" of the Mishnah.

Here is how and why this is not so much a relgious debate, as a survival debate, at least as I see it.

If a society, whether we're discussing the United States, or any other nation for that matter, is to see homosexuality as "evil", which is rather absurd, it is something which threatens not only those people who are in fact "homosexual", but those people who repress that mindset through "Christian" values, an adopted mindset because of the New Testament within the confines of the Bible.

In many different background checks if you are seen or understood as "gay" you will fail it.

No, of course this is never discussed with the individual, but there are cases I am sure.

The Craft of Intelligence: America's Legendary Spy Master on the Fundamentals of Intelligence Gathering for a Free World

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Amazon Review :

If the experts could point to any single book as a starting point for understanding the subject of intelligence from the late twentieth century to today, that single book would be Allen W. Dulles's The Craft of Intelligence.

This classic of spycraft is based on Allen Dulles's incomparable experience as a diplomat, international lawyer, and America's premier intelligence officer.

Dulles was a high-ranking officer of the CIA's predecessor-the Office of Strategic Services-and was present at the inception of the CIA, where he served eight of his ten years there as director.

Here he sums up what he learned about intelligence from nearly a half-century of experience in foreign affairs.

In World War II his OSS agents penetrated the German Foreign Office, worked with the anti-Nazi underground resistance, and established contacts that brought about the Nazi military surrender in North Italy.

Under his direction the CIA developed both a dedicated corps of specialists and a whole range of new intelligence devices, from the U-2 high-altitude photographic plane to minute electronic listening and transmitting equipment.

Dulles reveals much about how intelligence is collected and processed, and how the resulting estimates contribute to the formation of national policy.

He discusses methods of surveillance, and the usefulness of defectors from hostile nations.

His knowledge of Soviet espionage techniques is unrivaled, and he explains how the Soviet State Security Service recruited operatives and planted "illegals" in foreign countries.

He spells out not only the techniques of modern espionage but also the philosophy and role of intelligence in a free society threatened by global conspiracies.

Dulles also addresses the Bay of Pigs incident, denying that the 1961 invasion was based on a CIA estimate that a popular Cuban uprising would ensue.

This account is enlivened with a wealth of personal anecdotes.

It is a book for readers who seek wider understanding of the contribution of intelligence to our national security.

I will bring up an example of a "East meets West" mentality from the book above.

Without delving into America as being the specific nation which was the target.

Instead let us examine the instance of Alfred Redl and espionage.

Quote from : Wikipedia : Alfred Redl

Alfred Redl (March 14, 1864 – May 25, 1913) was an Austrian officer who rose to head the counter-intelligence efforts of Austria-Hungary.

He was one of the leading figures of pre-World War I espionage.

His term in office was marked by innovation, and he used very high technology for the time to ensnare foreign intelligence agents.

But he was himself a spy for the Russians.

Claims that Redl also worked for secret services of France and Italy have appeared much later but they were neither confirmed nor disproved reliably.

...

Redl's motives for treason are still unclear.

He may have been caught in a compromising position by Russian agents, since he was homosexual and being exposed as such would have been fatal to his career prospects.

Actually, Russian military intelligence, based in Warsaw at the time, under the command of Colonel Nikolai Batyushin, had discovered Redl's homosexuality as early as 1901, information that was used to blackmail him into revealing classified information.

He was paid well for his services, and had a lifestyle far above what his official salary could cover.

It is not unusual for people to be blackmailed into spying and then being well-paid for it as a means of ensuring that they continue.

It would appear that there was also a strong element of vanity involved, as well as a taste for the dangers.

A Russian report of 1907 describes Redl as "more sly and false than intelligent and talented", a cynic "who enjoys dissipation."

The simple fact that the Russian's, using subversive tactics, were able to turn Redl using blackmail is evidence of the fear-factor that goes into the mindset of not being accepted, due to predjudices, religious views, and or beliefs and a denial of acceptance if someone is "outed".

This may in fact have something to do with the beliefs of some "same-sex relationships".

I am specifically speaking of course about their desire to "be out of the closet".

Or being honest about who they are.

Whether we as a nation agree with that or not.

This is after all a protected right through Freedom of Speech correct?

Or is it?

If the religious people have their say it is not in fact.

According to their beliefs in their right to the same protected Freedom of Speech.

Blackmail : Keep Your Friends Close, Keep Your Enemies Closer, The Threat of Subversion Through Fear

But who in fact is the subersive element within Government?

Those who suppress other people through religious intolerance and make "gay" people hide?

Or those people who hide who they are because they cannot and will not be accepted?

Perhaps it is those people who prey upon both sides and use that information as blackmail?

I say it is a little of all three sides in fact.

Quote from : Wikipedia : Lever

In physics, a lever (from French lever, "to raise", cf. a levant) is a rigid object that is used with an appropriate fulcrum or pivot point to either multiply the mechanical force (effort) that can be applied to another object or resistance force (load), or multiply the distance and speed at which the opposite end of the rigid object travels.

This leverage is also termed mechanical advantage, and is one example of the principle of moments.

A lever is one of the six simple machines.

Early Use:

The earliest remaining writings regarding levers date from the 3rd century BC and were provided by Archimedes.

"Give me a place to stand, and I shall move the earth with a lever" is a remark of Archimedes who formally stated the correct mathematical principle of levers (quoted by Pappus of Alexandria).

A simple lever and fulcrum shows us this in fact.

You cannot have a collapse of integrity without a catalyst or that which initiates it.

Simple logistics show us that in fact.

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But we as a society ignore this because we would much rather bicker over who is right or wrong.

The Tao Of Spycraft: Intelligence Theory And Practice In Traditional China

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Amazon Review :

In The Tao of Spycraft, for the first time anywhere Ralph Sawyer unfolds the long and venerable tradition of spycraft and intelligence work in traditional China, revealing a vast array of theoretical materials and astounding historical developments.

Encompassing extensive translations of relevant portions of theoretical military manuals previously unknown in the West (such as the T'ai-pai Yin-ching, Hu-ling Ching, and Ping-fa Pai-yen), the book spans centuries to trace the development and expansion of agent concepts, insertion and control methods, recruitment, and covert practices such as assassination, subversion, and sexual entrapment and exploitation, going on to explore counter-intelligence and all aspects of military intelligence, including objectives, analysis and interpretation.

But The Tao of Spycraft is more than an examination of military tactics, it also provides a thorough overview of the history of spies in China, emphasizing their early development, ruthless employment, and dramatic success in subverting famous generals, dooming states to extinction, and facilitating the rise of the first imperial dynasty known as the Ch'in.

The cases discussed-particularly those exploiting women and sex-not only became part of China's general mindset over the ages, but coupled with the theoretical writings remain the basis for the study and teaching of contemporary spycraft methods and practices as the PRC trains and aggressively deploys thousands of agents throughout the world, including the United States.

The Russian's, Chinese, and other countries see this and laugh at us.

Because they can use this leverage to flip spies into betraying their nation.

With little to no effort upon their part except to threaten to tell and or incriminate someone.

KGB Alpha Team Training Manual: How The Soviets Trained For Personal Combat, Assassination, And Subversion

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Amazon Review :

A rare glimpse into how Soviet Spetsnaz and KGB units protected and defended their country from perceived enemies - inside and outside its borders.

Includes special sections for Alpha Teams on assassination, sabotage and kidnapping.

Assuredly the divisiveness of humanity is easily ployed by experts in subversion.

Quote from : Wikipedia : Espionage : History

Incidents of espionage are well documented throughout history.

The ancient writings of Chinese and Indian military strategists such as Sun-Tzu and Chanakya contain information on deception and subversion.

Chanakya's student Chandragupta Maurya, founder of the Maurya Empire in India, made use of assassinations, spies and secret agents, which are described in Chanakya's Arthasastra.

The ancient Egyptians had a thoroughly developed system for the acquisition of intelligence, and the Hebrews used spies as well, as in the story of Rahab.

Spies were also prevalent in the Greek and Roman empires.

During the 13th and 14th centuries, the Mongols relied heavily on espionage in their conquests in Asia and Europe.

Feudal Japan often used ninja to gather intelligence.

More recently, spies played a significant part in Elizabethan England (see Francis Walsingham).

Many modern espionage methods were well established even then.

The Cold War involved intense espionage activity between the United States of America and its allies and the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China and their allies, particularly related to nuclear weapons secrets.

Recently, espionage agencies have targeted the illegal drug trade and those considered to be terrorists.

Different intelligence services value certain intelligence collection techniques over others.

The former Soviet Union, for example, preferred human sources over research in open sources, while the United States has tended to emphasize technological methods such as SIGINT and IMINT.

Both Soviet political (KGB) and military intelligence (GRU 3) officers were judged by the number of agents they recruited.

While surely the might "Russian bear" has fallen this is still a worry within Government.

Political Currency : Secret Societies, Those They Blackmail, and the Corrupt Currency...

Not necessarily at all levels anymore but far too many people would rather disagree.

Then let people be people and mind their own damned business when it comes to the bedroom.

I know many gay and lesbian people and I am perfectly comfortable around them.

Labels and those who use them are ignorant and a sign of an ignorant society towards keeping tabs.

Did we not learn the lessons of hatred during WWII?

IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance Between Nazi Germany and America's Most Powerful Corporation

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Amazon Review :

Was IBM, "The Solutions Company," partly responsible for the Final Solution?

That's the question raised by Edwin Black's IBM and the Holocaust, the most controversial book on the subject since Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's Hitler's Willing Executioners.

Black, a son of Holocaust survivors, is less tendentiously simplistic than Goldhagen, but his thesis is no less provocative: he argues that IBM founder Thomas Watson deserved the Merit Cross (Germany's second-highest honor) awarded him by Hitler, his second-biggest customer on earth.

"IBM, primarily through its German subsidiary, made Hitler's program of Jewish destruction a technologic mission the company pursued with chilling success," writes Black. "IBM had almost single-handedly brought modern warfare into the information age [and] virtually put the 'blitz' in the krieg."

The crucial technology was a precursor to the computer, the IBM Hollerith punch card machine, which Black glimpsed on exhibit at the U.S. Holocaust Museum, inspiring his five-year, top-secret book project.

The Hollerith was used to tabulate and alphabetize census data.

Black says the Hollerith and its punch card data ("hole 3 signified homosexual ... hole 8 designated a Jew") was indispensable in rounding up prisoners, keeping the trains fully packed and on time, tallying the deaths, and organizing the entire war effort.

Hitler's regime was fantastically, suicidally chaotic; could IBM have been the cause of its sole competence: mass-murdering civilians?

Better scholars than I must sift through and appraise Black's mountainous evidence, but clearly the assessment is overdue.

The moral argument turns on one question: How much did IBM New York know about IBM Germany's work, and when?

Black documents a scary game of brinksmanship orchestrated by IBM chief Watson, who walked a fine line between enraging U.S. officials and infuriating Hitler.

He shamefully delayed returning the Nazi medal until forced to--and when he did return it, the Nazis almost kicked IBM and its crucial machines out of Germany.

(Hitler was prone to self-defeating decisions, as demonstrated in How Hitler Could Have Won World War II.)

Bolded and underlined by SKL

Just how much hatred can we have to drive us apart?

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Be careful what you wish for because it may become a Government directive.

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Maybe : Your Political Rhetoric, Your Political Affiliation, Your Belief System, Needs To Change...

I must say, Excellent page. I totally agree with you on all your points. Whereas I fully understand the bias against homosexuals I completely disagree with it. Other than the people involved in a relationship, no one else should be involved. I applaud you and your vision. Fear is an amazing tool, which our government has put to use.

Originally posted by hope4better
I must say, Excellent page. I totally agree with you on all your points. Whereas I fully understand the bias against homosexuals I completely disagree with it. Other than the people involved in a relationship, no one else should be involved. I applaud you and your vision. Fear is an amazing tool, which our government has put to use.

Thank you.

It was inspired by another thread.

I will refrain from pointing it out.

While many right wing and zionist Christians go to great lengths to extol the dangers of Sharia law, and Islam, they too have a tendency to want to legislate morality that fits their religious thinking.

Amazingly enough it's not uncommon for their religious leaders to turn out to be gay themselves in one of those ironies that just makes you wonder why so many people are hung up on sex and sexuality.

It is as if people are conditioned and want to condition others to believe our own primordial animal instincts and desire to propogate and fornicate are some how inherently evil even though it is this very process that not only sustains and creates life but is one of the most enjoyable parts of life, physically, emotionally and spiritually.

As a man with 5 children and 1 grand child, who has at times struggled mightily to pay financially to keep them secure and well nourished and housed, I often have been known to tease my gay friends with "Had I only been born Gay".

Yet I know the other side of that too is that Gays and Lesbians often love their partners just as deeply and faithfully as heterosexuals do and face the same heartbreaks as well.

Early pre-Christian religion was often based on sexual ritual, and I sometimes suspect that sex as it's perscribed through Abrahamic Religions is in part designed to prevent us from connected with the more spiritual aspects of life and the universe through sex and sexuality and is actually a form of repressive brainwashing.

I think it's shameful people can't love one another unconditionally and have to attempt to validate their own habits and lifestyles by insisting all others act and live the same.

Thank heavens people by and large reject that because I know it would be a very boring and depressing world if people weren't diverse, and couldn't celebrate and embrace that.

Great post my friend.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Whether we're talking "right-wing" Christians or Muslim and Israeli "Zionist's" it is quite clear.

Something has to be done prior to one side stomping on the other.

And everyone getting caught in the middle.

Especially when hatred comes into the mix and or racial divisiveness.

The Crusades never truly ended they only changed names and centuries.

Now, throw into the mix, straight or homosexual?

Just one more domino in the wall of our own control.

With differences being pushed and secret agendas to eliminate each other.

Through manipulation and machinations of control mechanisms.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

One thing is for certain and that there is a very frightening type of person who looks to and sees government as something that can literally be used as a tool to make everyone and everything conform to their thinking and lifestyle.

Scarier still they know the only way the government can do that is through organized violence and intimidation yet they try to sell that as being necessary to achieve peace and that they are peaceful people and this is why they must violently impose their will and lifestyle and rules on everyone.

Its about the darndest thing I ever have seen.

One thing is for sure the crusades sure have not ended and are very much in full swing.

The sad part is that I think the people orchestrating them at the very top have an outcome in mind that includes eliminating all the people fighting them, and not letting any one faction come out on top, but using them as a means to eliminate all the factions involved.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Of course.

Divide and Conquer.

Divide the populace's mind and you conquer them without lifting a finger.

Strategy 101.

Make people's hatred of each other through primal thinking come to a head.

Keep broadcasting hatred, racism, violence, and sell newspapers.

Meanwhile, propaganda wins the war, while we fight each other.

And an adopted mindset keeps everyone else fearing for their lives or dependent upon Government.

Or both.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


The funny thing about fears is that they are almost always purely imagined. It is rare indeed when someone's fears actually workout the way that they imagine them too.

Fear is almost always based on a lack of information, from a lack of communication, and a lack of trust in the communication process.

Usually when most people confront their fears and explore them, they usually find out that they were not only real, and not true, but they really never had anything to fear at all.

No Fear!

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Yes, it is dangerous, in fact it is a historical precendence.

Many people do not realize its danger and or the subversive nature of it until it is too late.

By then it is far too late and they are being herded right next to those people they denied freedom.

Because of their fervor.

If we are not careful it can go too far.

Too few American's realize we almost had Fascist Concentration Camps dotted across our landscape.

Thank you for the great post and more information/confirmation.

I have this one friend who hates homosexuals and hates all genres of music except his one it sickens me how all this influence from past times has shaped peoples minds so much, I told him he's not going to have an interesting life if he only has two interests.

Originally posted by eathis
Thank you for the great post and more information/confirmation.

I have this one friend who hates homosexuals and hates all genres of music except his one it sickens me how all this influence from past times has shaped peoples minds so much, I told him he's not going to have an interesting life if he only has two interests.

edit on 25-3-2011 by eathis because: (no reason given)

Well, it is interesting to see different perspectives, if only to disagree.

I do not particularly agree with homosexuality, but it is because of a personal preference, not a bias.

Not a predjudice.

That is however not where I came from with how I was raised.

I was raised within a predjucial mindset and I overcame it.

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
I do not particularly agree with homosexuality, but it is because of a personal preference, not a bias.

How do you agree or disagree with homosexuality?

That is an odd statement.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
I do not particularly agree with homosexuality, but it is because of a personal preference, not a bias.

How do you agree or disagree with homosexuality?

That is an odd statement.

I do not participate in it.

I do not believe in it.

I am heterosexual and happily single as well as quite a lover as well as a fighter.

I do not belittle or look down on people who do.

I do befriend people who are gay.

I tend to do what I want, when I want, whether other people like it or not.

I prefer to fight for other people's rights because I cannot stand bullies on either side of a conflict.

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
I do not believe in it.

You do not believe in it?

Another odd statement.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

Personally, I think Government needs to stay out of everyone's bedroom, and or closet.

I do not believe the Federal Government should have any right, any legislation, or say in what you do, or do not do in your bedroom.

When a Government becomes that nosey they are far too powerful.

I could not agree with you more.

The religion clauses in the 1st Amendment is:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

That means the government is SUPPOSED to stay out of it completely. I do not even think the government should have any say in the institution of MARRIAGE!

The full text of the First is:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

So the yes the idiot bigots have the right to spout their venom BUT the do not have the right to enact it into law.

Given the Declaration of Independence states:
...We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness....

It seems to me our founding document protects the rights of whatever two consenting adults want to do together, whether it is play chess or anything else as long as it harms no one else.

Personally after spending the last two hundred years passing laws, I think it is time for Congress to spend at least a hundred years REPEALING laws

I am getting sick and tired of tripping over government officials and regulations every time I turn around.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
I do not believe in it.

You do not believe in it?

Another odd statement.

An odd statement yourself.

Selecting bits and pieces selectively.

It goes with the other bits and pieces together.

If I do not participate in it?

Not believing in it follows.

Meaning if someone tempted me with man-flesh I would turn them down.

If a guy grabbed my crotch he would be lucky to be alive after waking up in a coma.

If a guy wants to be with a guy, fine.

If a woman wants to be with a woman, fine.

Just do not invite me into the two guy's bedroom.

I will however willingly go into the two females bedroom.

Again, a personal preference, as in I do not participate in homosexual male-to-male sex.

Come on, Annee, you're smarter than that, I know that for a fact.

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
Come on, Annee, you're smarter than that, I know that for a fact.

I find it odd after all you posted that you would use certain phrasing.

You give your explanation of what it means, OK. But - it was/is like a blinking red light to me.

I do appreciate the approach you have taken on this subject.

reply to post by crimvelvet


Too few in fact know what is going on in politics to begin with.

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House of Bush, House of Saud: The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties

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Amazon Review :

The perilous ramifications of the September 11 attacks on the United States are only now beginning to unfold.

They will undoubtedly be felt for generations to come.

This is one of many sad conclusions readers will draw from Craig Unger's exceptional book House of Bush House of Saud: The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties.

As Unger claims in this incisive study, the seeds for the "Age of Terrorism" and September 11 were planted nearly 30 years ago in what, at the time, appeared to be savvy business transactions that subsequently translated into political currency and the union between the Saudi royal family and the extended political family of George H. W. Bush.

On the surface, the claim may appear to be politically driven, but as Unger (a respected investigative journalist and editor) probes--with scores of documents and sources--the political tenor of the U.S. over the last 30 years, the Iran-Iraq War, the war in Afghanistan, the birth of Al Qaeda, the dubious connection between members of the Saudi Royal family and the exportation of terror, and the personal fortunes amassed by the Bush family from companies such as Harken Energy and the Carlyle Group, he exposes the "brilliantly hidden agendas and purposefully murky corporate relationships" between these astonishingly powerful families.

His evidence is persuasive and reveals a devastating story of Orwellian proportions, replete with political deception, shifting allegiances, and lethal global consequences.

Unger begins his book with the remarkable story of the repatriation of 140 Saudis directly following the September 11 attacks.

He ends where Richard A. Clarke begins, questioning the efficacy of the war in Iraq in the battle against terrorism. We are unquestionably facing a global security crisis unlike any before.

President Bush insists that we will prevail, yet as Unger so effectively concludes, "Never before has an American president been so closely tied to a foreign power that harbors and supports our country's mortal enemies."

--Silvana Tropea

Too few focus on what they see and what they know.

To most the image of Bush holding the Saudi royal's hand thinking "homosexuality".

Instead of focusing on the custom an relationship which this shows between these two.

No, I am not stating Bush was homosexual, this is a Middle Eastern custom, similar to a lie-detector.

At least as how I understand it.

But people narrow-mindedly see one thing without going deeper than the surface issue.

Just one minor example of predjudicial thinking and what it belies.

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One of the most famous cases where a "homosexual" was turned was Kim Philby.

Quote from : Wikipedia : Counterintelligence Failures : UK Counterintelligence Failures, Kim Philby, and U.S. Counterintelligence Failures

A group of Soviet sympathizers, in respected positions in British society, formed the Cambridge Five, sometimes called the Cambridge Four, and it has never been established how many active agents were involved.

Of these, the most devastating was Kim Philby.

Other confirmed members included Donald Duart Maclean, Guy Burgess, and Anthony Blunt.

See Cambridge Five for other suspets.

Kim Philby was an effective Soviet agent while in the British counterintelligence service, warning the Soviets of countersurveillance, while casting suspicion on loyal officers.

Philby came under suspicion but was able to escape to the USSR.

Philby even was, at one time, considered as a possible head of MI5.

He was able to protect numerous Soviet operations in Britain.

British intelligence also suffered from internal suspicion that may or may not have been directed at the right targets, but caused suspicion to be thrown at the highest counter-intelligence officers, with severe effects on morale.

Peter Wright, while later extremely controversial about revelations his 1987 book, Spycatcher: The Candid Autobiography of a Senior Intelligence Officer, also developed techniques that allowed the UK to track numerous Soviet clandestine agents, and agents under diplomatic cover (Wright 1987).

Kim Philby

US counterespionage failures

James Jesus Angleton, the legendary CIA director of counterespionage and a poet himself, used T. S. Eliot's term "an infinity of mirrors" to describe the intricacies of agent to double agent to triple agent so common in counterespionage, with works describing him as paranoid, while others described him as brilliant.

Perhaps the truth may only emerge with the novelist's pen.

It is clear that searches for foreign penetration, whether present or not, came close to paralyzing US intelligence.

Bolded by SKL.

If you're familiar with the film The Good Shepherd and the story between Philby and James Jesus Angleton you know what I mean.

The Good Shepherd Trailer


A Hollywood adaption, sure, but close enough to the actual story to be certain.

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Of course we need some laws repealed just as need more speficity to regulate ones overlooked.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
Come on, Annee, you're smarter than that, I know that for a fact.

I find it odd after all you posted that you would use certain phrasing.

You give your explanation of what it means, OK. But - it was/is like a blinking red light to me.

I do appreciate the approach you have taken on this subject.

Okay, fair enough, I use wording as it comes to me.

Remember, I said I was raised Christian, and I would have been classified as "right-wing".

Maybe some of that came across due to my stances.

And thank you for the appreciation.

I felt it was time ATS delved into this topic at a higher level instead of delving into stupidity.

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
I do not believe in it.

I do not particularly agree with homosexuality

As Annee pointed out, there does seem to be something inherently wrong with these statements. What if I said "I don't believe in black people" or "I don't agree with being black"? It sounds utterly absurd, doesn't it? They are born that way, it was not a choice.

Same thing with homosexuals. How can you disagree with what someone is? Would you tell a woman that you don't particularly agree with them being a woman?