Origin of Ultra-Zionism?

Disclaimer:
Since my previous thread on a similar topic was removed due to allegations of hate speech, and I'd hate for such a reputation to stick , I'd like to clear up a few things in this disclaimer here.
First off, in this thread, I am NOT talking about the ethno-religious group that identifies itself as "Jewish". If you want to involve yourself in racism, anti-semitism, jew-bashing or such activities, then this isn't the thread for you (heck, I don't think ATS is the place for you).

Secondly, EVEN within the confines of talking about judaism as a religion, I am not talking about judaism in general, or even Zionism in general, but rather, an extremist strain within Zionism. I would never apply a blanket condemnation on all adherents of a religion based on the actions or statements of a tiny minority of said group.

However, this minority extremist group justifies it's actions with certain interpretations of certain Jewish scriptures. I will be quoting some of these scriptures, but I am in no way claiming that their violent interpretation of these scriptures to these ends is a correct one, or even one that is followed by any but a minority extremist group within the general zionist population. The problem is that some parts of (or some people who are influenced by) this extremist minority may have made it to positions of power where they can dictate strategic foreign policy and military goals. I realise that the vast majority of the followers of Judeo-Christian beliefs probably do not interpret these passages in this way, and could very likely show how these interpretations are false. This thread isn't about them.

I realise that Judaism as a religion is a vast and diverse ideology, and no one person or group (or even 10 persons or 10 groups) can speak for it in it's entirety. I am in no way making a judgement call on the Jewish religion. I am certain there are many jews (the majority even, probably) who would, along with me, condemn the actions and statements and this minority extremist segment.


Okay, with all that walking on eggshells to state the obvious out of the way, I would like to get to the content of this thread.
Zionists generally believe that the jews have a historical claim to the land of Israel. Non-secular zionists believe it to be a divine and religious right- God's promise to the jews through Abraham and after that, Moses.
The problem is, they draw parallels to the original acquisition of Israel with the current situation in the Middle East involving Palestinians and Arabs.

For example:

Exodus 15
The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestine. Then, the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the might men of Moab, trembling shall take hold on them, all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away. Terror and dread shall fall on them; by the greatness of your arm they shall be as still as a stone; till your people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over, which you have purchased. You shall bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of your inheritance.

Another example is the story of the Sihon, who refused the army passage through his land:

Deut 2
But Sihon king of Heshbon refused to let us pass through. For the Lord your God had made his spirit stubborn and his heart obstinate in order to give him into your hands, as he has now done. The Lord said to me, “See, I have begun to deliver Sihon and his country over to you. Now begin to conquer and possess his land.” The Lord our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army. At that time we took all his cities and completely destroyed them—men, women and children. We left no survivors. But the livestock and the plunder from the towns we had captured we carried off for ourselves. From Aroer on the rim of the Arnon Gorge, and from the city in the gorge, even as far as Gilead, not one city was too strong for us. The Lord our God gave us all of them.

And for that, his kingdom and people were utterly destroyed. Now of course, the historicity of much of the BC Jewish army in the area which I am going to mention in this thread is disputed, and it may not be true, but that is not the issue. The issue is when certain fringe extremists group take these passages as a justification for war and occupation in today's world.

And that is the problem. Such actions may have been relevant or meaningful ~3000 years ago, and they may have been useful to the small jewish community at the time, in order to give them hope and strength, but when groups take them as backing and justification for actions today, there are problems. With this sort of interpretation of the scripture, that would mean that occupying the land is morally justifiable (Gen 15:18-21, Deut 3:28). It would mean that obliteration of those who are currently on that land is morally justifiable (Deut 2:34, Deut 3:6, Deut 20:16, Num 21:3, Num 21:35, Num 31:17), or slavery or servitude (Deut 20:10-14, Num 31:18, Num 31:40, 2 Sam 8:2). It would mean that attacking because a state/country wishes to maintain sovereignty in a way that may be perceived as hindering expansion is morally justifiable(Deut 2:30-31). It would mean that physical and violent opposition to racial and religious integration of different groups is morally justifiable (Deut 20:17-18, Num 25:6-13).


Even some relatively recent events could be seen in a startling new perspective if investigated from a Biblical point of view. For example, the story of the King of Arad, who attacked and captured some soldiers from the approaching army:

Numbers 21
When the Canaanite king of Arad, who lived in the Negev, heard that Israel was coming along the road to Atharim, he attacked the Israelites and captured some of them. Then Israel made this vow to the LORD: “If you will deliver these people into our hands, we will totally destroy their cities.” The LORD listened to Israel’s plea and gave the Canaanites over to them. They completely destroyed them and their towns; so the place was named Hormah (i.e. Destruction).

Now think of the 2006 Lebanon-Israel conflict involving the captured Israeli prisoners. I'm not suggesting that what Hezbollah did was justified, or even that there is an explicit connection or causality, but it makes an interesting comparison.

Another passage with interesting context in the current situation is:

Deut 20
When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.

You will remember how it recently came in the news about a Rabbi who said that the purpose of the non-jews was to serve the jews?

Now my purpose here, as I've already explained, isn't to show that Judaism is evil. There are many jews who deny that such behaviour is applicable to the situation today, and would condemn the actions and statements of these extremists. However, one has to be seriously worried about the "Ultra-Zionists" (I took that name from a BBC special of Louis Theroux's that I recommend to everybody to watch. It is available on youtube). These are the guys who believe that it is okay to apply the situations described in their book to the present day, and that not only does God condone it, God WANTS it. You can see the results in the instances of brutal violence that occasionally pop up in the Israeli military and politics that occasionally can be seen to support it. For this very reason they're every bit as dangerous (if not more so) as another group that has distorted their religion for their personal goals- the so-called Islamist terrorists.

Part one video. Interesting documentary. It's pretty crazy when you have the American Christians coming to work for free for the Jewish settlers.

And here is part 2, just in case some of you guys weren't able to get to it:


The boy in the camp is particularly disconcerting for me...he's what....17 or something, and absolutely and totally convinced of his moral right and superiority according to his beliefs, and probably willing to die for it.

reply to post by babloyi


Oh gawddddd, another rant from another obssessive compulsive towards Jews and Israel.

Where the hell do you all come from? Don't you people have anything else better to do in life?

Sure there there are ultra orthodox Jews who don't agree with Zionism......but thats why so many of them quite happily immigrated to Israel ??? Thats why so many of them push to keep Arabs out of their suburbs? Thats why so many of them won't rent an apartment to an Arab? Thats why so many of them refuse to give Arabs jobs?

and you allege they are not Zionists??? Some among them claim they are are not Zionists?

Yeah, rightio !!! (rolls my eyes)

reply to post by bluemirage5

I wouldn't call it a rant, but how did you know I am obsessive compulsive? I wouldn't consider it an insult insofar as my posting goes. I just like to be clear about what I mean to say. This sometimes means my posts are a bit long?

I am sorry, aside from the personal attacks, I don't quite understand what you are trying to say. Yes, there are ultra-orthodox jews that do not agree with zionism, and there are also other jews who do not agree with zionism.

I do not have detailed knowledge of the Haradi jews, most of my information of them comes from an "ethnically jewish" israeli friend of mine (who considers himself an atheist). He generally dislikes them, and considers them dirty dudes who are always causing problems and being generally fundamental. My friend, by the way, considers himself a "post-zionist".

Were the majority of jews shown in the video haradi jews?

reply to post by babloyi


Explain to me which group are "ethnically" Jews?

Guess what.......

There are NONE !!!

Your friend does'nt like them because they are squeezing the life out of the Israeli tax payer, barely do IDF service and are about as corrupt as the Mafia both in and outside Israel.

Of course there are Jews who are not inclined to go along with staunch far right wing Zionists.......but believe you me their support for Israel and the international Jewish community at large is undeniable because I know how secular Jews think, talk, walk.

reply to post by bluemirage5

I kinda agree with you about "ethnic jews", which is why I put it in quotes in my previous post. Personally, I consider "jewishness" to be a religion, or perhaps a cultural heritage at most, but some have made it into an entire race. I would use "Semites" when referring to the "race" (if I had any reason to be referring to the race), although this creates even more confusion, because the palestinians and other arabs of the area are also semites.

My friend would, however, describe himself as a jew (unless we were talking in a religious context), which is why I mentioned it. I could've used the term "Secular jew", but that seems something of an oxymoron to me.

But yeah, this thread, as I mentioned, isn't about any race, or racism. This thread is about those "staunch far right wing Zionists" groups you are talking about. I do not know the mind of the "secular jew", or any other individual, but it is my hope that they don't let their support for Israel outweigh the importance of peace and opposition to these violent elements.