$300 dollar round takes out M1A2

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


Well I don't know how the British Challenger-2 got surpised, but I'd say their guerilla tactics are working as the humvees are being uparmored, and now being replaced by MRAPs. The m1's crews are afraid of ieds and the newer generation of rpgs.

I was myself curious as to how you get of 60 rpg shots...that is insane..i would have expected return fire of some sort.

Even a well trained enemy sniper can pick out vital tank optics etc..

reply to post by seeashrink


NO, please let ME clarify somethign here

I'm a former marine tank mechanic out of MCAGCC 1st tank battallion...I have credentials if you need them.

Where the ATGM presumably strikes(if this video is authentic) is NOT, I repeat, NOT reactive armour.

It appears to hit somewhere above the armor skirts....that means either the slip ring or the turret.
It doesn't appear to hit the slip ring, but that'd be a damn lucky shot if it did.

From the video we can see the bustle side of the turret, the bustle rack is a cheaper, but yet less efficient, version of ERA.

It is protected, yes, but it is NOT protected by any type of reactive armour.

A2D

Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
reply to post by Agree2Disagree

 

Well I don't know how the British Challenger-2 got surpised, but I'd say their guerilla tactics are working as the humvees are being uparmored, and now being replaced by MRAPs. The m1's crews are afraid of ieds and the newer generation of rpgs.

I was myself curious as to how you get of 60 rpg shots...that is insane..i would have expected return fire of some sort.

Even a well trained enemy sniper can pick out vital tank optics etc..

edit on 26-3-2011 by THE_PROFESSIONAL because: (no reason given)

The only reason their guerilla tactics are "working" is because they're being smart and picking targets, like humvees. That's why humvees are being uparmored, because they ARE susceptible to rpgs and other small arms fire.

As far as the sniper, they can I suppose...if they know what they're doing and don't get caught. I don't know what they're going to take out though....

Maybe the GPS (gunners primary sight) mirrors or the drivers sight block? But then they'd have to be directly in front of the tank and risk being seen. Other then that, there's not much they can do from the outside as long as the crew stays inside. All the vital equipment is inside, like it should be.

A2D

Oh and actually NO the RPG industry is not ahead of active defense systems... they are still working on decoy rounds and etc... as well as Ultra high velocity missiles but they do not have anything in production yet.

As far as I've read. Then again I actually understand what I'm reading when I do read articles on procurement and R and D.


Edit to add: Oh and NO it did not hit reactive armor... they do not put reactive armor under the bustle racks!

heres why: Explosive Reactive Armor works on the universal principle that explosions like water will tend to take the path of least resistance. What this means is when the warhead hits and pushes inward it triggers the explosive which is sitting parallel to the armor underneath and naturally explodes OUTWARDS away from the tank. This has several effects depending on the type of munition that has impacted the armor but it works quite well on lots of types of weaponry.

Now the ONE thing you can do to make ERA DANGEROUS to the vehicle it's on: Put something OVER it! this will negate the path of least resistance effect and actually make the ERA a liability that can cause more damage.

This is why they DO NOT put ERA under the bustle rack.

THe fact that this keeps getting brought up and the OP at various points has bought it or not depending on who has said something about it proves my point about his core knowledge of the subject matter.

Just a little something I found...(this is 2002 info and doesn't include ERA, only DU plates)

M1A1 Abrams MBT - Estimated Armor Protection Levels (2002)

M1A1HC, M1A1HA, M1A1D
Against Kinetic Energy(in mm of RHAe)
Turret 800-900
Glacis 560-590
Lower Front Hull 580-650

Against Chemical Energy(in mm of RHAe)
Turret 1,320 - 1,620
Glacis 510 - 1,050
Lower Front Hull 800 - 970

RHAe = Rolled Homogeneous Armor Equivalent; an equivalent RHA thickness of a given armor type against a given armor piercing ammunition or missile (i.e. Kinetic Energy penetrators, like APFSDS DU long-rod penetrators or Chemical Energy projectiles, like HEAT ammunition and ATGM's). Modern composite (Chobham) armor may be several times more efficient against Chemical Energy than RHA of the same thickness.


What's the specs for said "tank-killer"? 800mm?

A2D

edit to add: What I found on wiki says RPG29 has 750mm RHA blast yield AFTER reactive armor effects....Again, don't know how effective the bustle rack is as compared to actual ERA, but if it's anything similar, it's safe to assume this round did NOT penetrate the turret.

reply to post by roguetechie

Oh and actually NO the RPG industry is not ahead of active defense systems... they are still working on decoy rounds and etc... as well as Ultra high velocity missiles but they do not have anything in production yet.

Do you have a source that they don't have these rounds?

Thanks Agree2Disagree for all that information. Its makes for good reading.

reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL


The M1 series tanks have greater weaknesses than being vulnerable to explosives. First of all, any 120 mm cannon can eat them for lunch. Second, any attack from the air will destroy them. Their only strength is against light infantry, and most of that is their fast movement, intimidation, and accuracy.

I used to be an M1A1 tanker and I can tell you what the easiest ways to disable a tank are and probably what happened here as well.

1. There's an emergency engine shutoff handle on the right rear (or is it left rear) of every tank. Pull it one time and the tank shuts down and you have to do a restart sequence with a minute or so delay inbetween. It's a big red handle with no cover on it.

2. Wrapping a water hose around the turret will render it completely useless. We used to wash our tanks and when the hose wrapped even halfway around the turret the safety governer that keeps the turret from smashing through trees and houses triggers and stops the entire turret from moving.

3. Throwing barbed wire or any other mess of metal into the track will severely cripple the tank's movement. However, the turret will still be fully functional.

4. Any RPG that wants to destroy an M1 series just needs to aim somewhere other than the front. All of the heavy armor is on the direct front of the tank and you could easily destroy the engine and possibly penetrate the ammunition storage from the side or rear. Just fire the RPG directly after the tank fires, this is when the loader has the door to the ammunition wide open.

The tank in the video probably just had the main weapon sight destroyed and possibly the auxillary sight as well. The main site has the thermal scope and also the laser range finder in it. It wouldn't take much at all to disable that, which is exactly why the aux unit is there.

I doubt the crew was injured, maybe temporarily defened but probably not even that. The main gun breech is in the middle of the turret and when that fires you hardly hear anything at all with your helmet on.

Anyway, enough sabatoge tips.

its a fake video.
look at the RPG.
it is pointing a little to the right.
Not at the tank a little to the left.
the Video Can Not see what he shoots at.
go look again!

OP how about you post a Source to prove ANYTHING you have said?

you are the one making the wild claims with NOTHING to back them up. SO how about YOU provide some proof to your asinine claims?

Oh and you still haven't addressed My point about how the bustle racks are full when the round hits but they show as empty before they launch the rocket.

Oh and the MARINE TANK MECHANIC agrees with me... on every single thing I said... that should give you a hint about who is right here.

Plus I'm not the one that has to keep backpedaling ... what happened to your assertion that the tank is COMPLETELY destroyed? Then it was the "TURRENT" (sic) that was completely destroyed... You couldn't even SPELL the word TURRET correctly until you were corrected in the thread yet you claim to be some sort of defense expert?
Oh and which one of us knew that the racks around the back three sides of the turret are bustle racks?
Or that current anti armor weapons use radar or radio proximity fuzes to achieve proper standoff detonation range?
Or that the reason they put the bustle racks there and then make sure they have equipment in them is to help defeat anti armor weapons because Fabric and composites are radar transparent?

That's right ... it's ME that pointed these things out and has been attempting to inject some LOGIC and REALITY into this thread.

reply to post by buddha


That's what I'm assuming too....usually tanks in theatre don't have their hatches open with a water cooler on the top(note the red and white ice box near the TC's hatch). There's just too much going wrong in the picture with the tank for me to assume that it's actually in a combat zone....

A2D

Originally posted by roguetechie
OP how about you post a Source to prove ANYTHING you have said?

you are the one making the wild claims with NOTHING to back them up. SO how about YOU provide some proof to your asinine claims?

I haven't made any asinine claims. Which one of my claims is asinine. Everyone has backed me up on my RPG-29 claims saying it is tandem warhead, and capable of penetrating 750mm of RHA and defeating ERA.

You are the one who claimed that the dual rpg which are designed to defeat active systems are nonexistent. Since you claimed it you prove it.

Everyone verified my claims.

reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL



edit to add: the RPG 29 does indeed have a TANDEM warhead however it is to defeat ERA not APS.. dual charge warheads have been the standard since the late 80's. They have nothing to do with active protection systems... the fact that you don't know that... LOL

edit again to add: Oh and I NEVER said the rpg 29 doesn't have a tandem warhead... as a matter of a fact I mentioned several times that modern anti armor weapons are dual charge generally... or did you not know that TANDEM and DUAL were the same thing? Again I have to say LOL your attempts to prove your point are laughable and you're still cherry picking which of my questions you want to bring up.... is that because you can't address the other ones? or just that you are too LAZY to do the work and then NOT MAN ENOUGH to admit I AM RIGHT?

So how about you answer some of my questions then? Oh and yes there are groups RESEARCHING APS defeating methodologies currently, but as far as I know none are in service or have been used yet. Quite frankly a revision of TTP's will work just fine to defeat APS systems by revising tactical doctrine. Multiple launches from opposite sides of the tank would work just fine... also in Urban Combat many APS systems need to be turned off due to their danger to people and property around the tank.

reply to post by roguetechie


Which question of yours is so concerning to you, that you need my expert advice on?

Also I don't remember the name of the rpg warhead, but I think they already made the dual, active protection system defeating warhead. Now you need to tell me who told you that they did not already make it.

Aha, I think I found it: RPG-30

Unlike the RPG-27 however, there is a smaller diameter precursor round in addition to the main round. This precursor acts as a false target spoofing the APS into engaging it and allowing the main round (following the precursor after a slight delay) a clear path to the target, while the APS is stuck in the 0.2-0.4 second delay needed to start its next engagement[1]. The PG-30 is the main round of the RPG-30. The round is a 105 mm tandem shaped charge with a weight of 10.3 kg and has a range of 200 meters and a stated penetration capability in excess of 600 mm RHA (after ERA), 1500 mm reinforced concrete, 2000 mm brick and 3700 mm of earth[1].

This was unveiled in 2008[

The Russian State Research and Production Enterprise (SPE) have unveiled the latest RPG, the RPG-30. The system has been designed with one purpose: to bypass Western (and no doubt Chinese) active protection systems and possibly reactive armor.

www.thefirearmblog.com...

It is already in production and there is no APS in place yet. I would say RPG technology is ahead of tank technology.

I'm gonna try to diffuse this situation. Both of you had aspects of your arguments that were correct.

The OP was incorrect to state the tank was rendered useless and that the turret is blown.
However, he is correct in stating that an RPG29 can "defeat" ERA...it CAN, up to 750mm RHA after ERA. That doesn't mean it penetrated this Abrams though, the Abrams has upwards of 800mm RHA, and that's not including ERA.

It's a misunderstanding and doesn't warrant name calling or any other crude remarks. We're here to deny ignorance, not breed it.

A2D

Hmm... ... Ok just because that is what they say it's for doesn't mean it works or is in service yet... I knew they were working on them but I still don't see anything proving they are in use anywhere.

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


edit to add: The Israelis and the russians will both be upset to know that there are no APS systems in active production yet... LOL again with the amazing stuff that proves my point about you. It's funny how you have to misconstrue what I am saying either due to maliciousness or sheer lack of reading comprehension to find something "wrong" with what I say.

It's the OP that calls people stupid and who fell for a FAKE vid and refuses to admit it... and no the OP has not been right about JACK!!

I do appreciate you trying to make peace but his ignorance and constant belittling of people that disagree with his opinion have seriously hacked me off! And I will continue to do anything and EVERYTHING I can to discredit him in any post I run across! It's my personal crusade to combat the spread of bad information and ignorance plain and simple.

reply to post by roguetechie


It already went into service, it is a weapon that has been invented to defeat future APS:

he RPG-30 has cleared its testing program and is waiting to be included in the Russia state arms procurement program as of November 2008

Thanks Agree2Disagree for trying to neutralize the situation.

It's the OP that calls people stupid and who fell for a FAKE vid and refuses to admit it... and no the OP has not been right about JACK!!

Video is not fake, their may have been 2 cameras, but it is the same tank.

REally the vid is real? But the stuff in the bustle racks just MAGICALLY appears as the shot hits?

I need me some of that STEALTH LUGGAGE

reply to post by Agree2Disagree

I don't doubt your credentials and the ring would be a tremendously lucky shot. I am aware that there is no reactive armor in that area. It appeared to me that it hit the skirting over the track. There is a very dark place on the skirting after the explosion. Just a matter of prespective and opinion.
Seeashrink

reply to post by roguetechie


So you agree that the RPG-30 is in production and is designed for defeating APS.

Before (enhanced):


After (enhanced):

Eally the vid is real? But the stuff in the bustle racks just MAGICALLY appears as the shot hits? I need me some of that STEALTH LUGGAGE

What are you trying to say? There were boxes on the rack, their may have been items in the boxes which just got blown to bits. How is this video fake? I just showed you the before and after. Identify which parts of the photo are fake.