I am required to respect you, not your beliefs

To the ATS community at large,

I have found a disturbing reality about people, especially on this forum: They're easily offended.

Frankly, it's stupid. I respect most of the members on this board on some level, some more than others, but mostly I have a baseline level of respect for everyone here because I have no reason to disrespect them. The thing is that I disagree with what some people say and believe. Some of these things are deeply held commitments, others aren't.

Either way, I disagree. I will not coach my language, I will not shy away from the use of descriptive terms. If I think you believe in a myth, I will call it a myth whether it is big foot, Nessie, or Jesus. If I think you believe in a fairy tale, whether it is from Aesop or the Bible, I will call it a fairy tale.

Apparently, some people have a problem with this. The problem seems to be that a specific reverence must be given to the beliefs of others...while those same others consistently fail to show even respect for others.

Well, I think Jesus is a fairy tale, Moses is a myth, and the Bible is a book of myths. If you think I have any mythical or fairy tale beliefs, go ahead and call them that. I'll argue with your assertion, but I won't tell the mods to remove your posts and I'll only complain about it to you when I can show that you're wrong.

Sincerely,
madnessinmysoul

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Yeah, I hear you. I think that it's fine to call myths myths. As long as you are not trying to imply that people that do not think as you think are lower than you or call people beliefs myths just to be an A-hole. Personally unless someone says something rude to me or uses their beliefs to harm or belittle others, I try not to offer my opinion on what they believe as it does not effect me. If it does effect me that is a different story.

Be mindful of the ages of the members who are so defensive and aggressive, most are probably under 21 and have little to no life experience. We aren't in here with scholars, most can barely spell English grammar school level words.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


but see, there's the rub.
you can't show folks that they're wrong.

you can only assert your opinion on the matter.

Usually in life you will be shown the same level of respect you show to others.....a hard lesson for some.

I respect you a great deal for stepping up as you have. But some people just cannot accept that just as every person is different, as are their beliefs. And as not all people are compatible with each other, it is the same with every belief system. People have to choose what is right for them to believe and choose what kind of people they feel are compatible with them/their belief system. That may be one of the things that divides humans, but it's also important to breed new ideas and new beliefs. Without that, we would be a one dimensioned world.
Of course, unfortunately because of those differences creates ignorance of those who do not understand others' beliefs. Somebody is always going to disagree with you. But in turn, somebody will always agree with you.
Especially on a forum like this it's pretty much impossible to find the sweet spot between those clashes, so dealing with ignorance like that will be pretty unavoidable.

Sounds good to me...

im guilty of the same thing, i call certian beliefs fairy tales as well. Its not meant as an insult of course but some people are "sensitive" *shrug*

Personally i find it amusing when someone gets all huffy about anothers beliefs, let them rant...

Has anyone noticed a few religious arguements that have been going for a few days now? Pages and pages of it, yet no conclusion, ever....

Hey its something to read right..

S&F

I agree with you. I don't respect everyone's ideas, opinions, or beliefs, but I do my best to show respect for everyone.

I have come across people who think that I am being disrespectful simply because I find a certain belief, or opinion, laughable. I don't get it. Why do I have to respect every idea? In my opinion, an idea ought to prove for itself why it is worthy of notice and respect.

Cheers,
Cody

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Wise words indeed. What bothers me the most is when you disagree a flame war inevitably follows. But on the bright side I suppose it is therapeutic to let your frustrations out with a world that doesn't listen to reason.

I have always found it supremely ironic that when someone is offended by what I say, I in turn, find my first impulse is to be offended at them in return.

If that individual elevates the offense (unintended though it may have been) to the level of insult; it usually indicates to me that the offended one is the one who put an emotional stake in the argument.

I never set out to convince anyone of anything, I don't proselytize. What's important to me is the exercise of dialog, not that I am challenging anyone to abandon their faith, or accept mine.

I understand the zeal to assert one's opinion is sometimes more powerful than any sense of social decorum or respect for voices from the 'other' side of the argument.

You and I may feel differently about the substance of a belief, or the nature of traditional faith, but it is no attack on my ego that someone would consider my heartfelt belief as myth. Of course, it should be equally acceptable that I resist relinquishing my heart's inclination because it's not cool with those who disagree.

Unfortunately, many are not so comfortable in a realm where, that which they old as truths, are not accepted as self-evident.

Perhaps sometime we will cross paths and I can speak of my understanding of the need for faith in the human condition, and that it is no surrender to accept mysticism or spirituality at face value; because you are free to interpret it as you will.

Myths are stories. So is history. Sometimes the two diverge, sometimes they intersect.

Certainly, you know calling someone's belief a myth, or other such characterization, can appear as intentionally degrading their choice, and as such, depending on the fragility of their ego, and the fire of their zeal, can be perceived by them as they decide... not you.

It is akin to the old discrimination story, where someone says to an African-American gentleman the following phrase....

"Did you see that game last night? Boy, that was some game!"

and the response is... "Did you just call me 'boy'?"

The intent didn't matter. Only the perception.

All this is about religion in particular, right? Or are you finding people being overly sensitive in general?

reply to post by kinglizard


I give people all sorts of respect. I respect that they have opinions that differ from mine, I respect that to the point where I refuse to hinder it. I respect that some people come from different backgrounds, different experiences, different parts of the world. I respect that some people don't write in the same manner which I do, I respect that some people don't use the same sort of words that I do.

I respect people. I don't respect their ideas unless those ideas are worthy of respect. I respect people enough that I extend to them the right to disrespect the ideas that I hold dear freely and without question.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Calling other people's beliefs Myths is disrespectful to them. If you truly respected the people you would allow them their delusions.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


You are an immature fool with no knowledge of creation or social decorum....or I can say with age you will learn and understand that people ARE their beliefs giving you the ability to show respect to them with words that may disagree with their understanding of life and the universe.

See, my first statement was disrespectful and inflammatory but I said almost the same in my second statement which is much more sensitive to to the individual.

Sometimes (always) it's not what you say but how you say it....

reply to post by Buddha1098


I guess I should also allow alcoholics their alcohol and junkies their heroin, as it is respectful for them to have their escapes.

I only respect people's beliefs insofar as people are allowed to have them. I'm not going to refrain from criticizing them on the off chance of offending someone. Conversely, I'm not going to simply start insulting someone's beliefs without any substantial critique behind them.

reply to post by kinglizard


And I can say you're throwing in a back-door insult and I can definitively say that I know more about 'creation' than you do in any sense of the term, so I'm not really all that offended by the attempt to insult.

People are not their beliefs, and anyone who claims to be nothing more than their beliefs on religion are far more than they claim to be. And even if people are merely their beliefs, I'm still going to criticize them.

To rephrase something I heard in an interview with Bill Maher: You have every right to believe what you want and I have every right to point out why it's stupid.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Buddha1098

 

I guess I should also allow alcoholics their alcohol and junkies their heroin, as it is respectful for them to have their escapes.

In a word:Yes

You seem convinced that your beliefs are correct while others are wrong. This is Ego. I don't believe in a literal 7 day creation but if a Creationist wants to hold that belief I don't tell him he's wrong. Nor do I try and show him the mountains of evidence to the contrary. Rather I admit that even though all the evidence seems to point to the contrary it is conceivable that he is correct. No argument, no right, no wrong just love and peace. The world has enough conflict. It needs a lot more love and peace

I am not like a Christian...I AM a Christian...I am my belief. Maybe that's where your confusion stems. I don't believe in Christians I AM A Christian. If I say atheists are under educated immature children that have no understanding of life you may 'mistake' that as a personal attack. Wouldn't you? I mean I'm attacking the beliefs and state of the atheist not you personally....

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Good quote but doesn't that go against what the topic was about?

You said you are required to respect a person not their beliefs, but calling someones beliefs stupid isn't even an arguement its just an insult.

Perhaps ye might use a little more tact.....not that the statement was yours mind you

My position is simply this: Christians (and other believers) are wrong about some things, but they're still people.

reply to post by Akragon


I modified the quote, read it again. I said I'll 'tell you why' it's stupid, not simply say that it's stupid. I'm not going to say "Believing in a global flood is just stupid", I'll explain specifically why it's stupid on so many levels.