A question for all females on ATS. Bear with me...About marraige.

Even taking in account that I really wanted to marry my man I was never crazy for engagement rings and such stuff... There wasn't a proper proposal too... I really don't understand all this stuff... Even if I would get that ring it would be difficult to decide what to do with it now because I can't wear two rings on one finger and the same finger on the other hand is a bit smaller...
For the wedding we bought simple classic gold rings.. Completely identical but he's one a bit wider. (I would prefer the white gold ones... But they were too expensive and yet didn't look like wedding rings)
I've read a few stories in the local bride forum that many girls don't accept proposals until they get their diamond rings Some even choose their rings themselves...

But maybe there's no problem at all and she just loves rings?

Originally posted by havok
This entire thread is a response to my last (ex) girlfriend of a few years.
I'll sum up the relationship like this:
We went out a few times when we were younger, but met up years later and got serious.
So everything was going fine until I got the relationship test.
Well, that's what I call it.
She wanted a ring...and an enormously expensive one at that.

So, all females who actually read this:
Why is there an obsession with a ring?
Do you have to have an item that shows that your man 'has' you for life?
Is it just western customs/ideals?
Is it merely the product of women who are blasted the ideas of consumerism and materialism by watching the television and actually basing their lifestyle choices on what 'it' tells you?
I am honestly stumped.
Don't get me wrong, I am all about pleasing a woman and making her happy.
But to me, you can't purchase happiness.

Anyways, it was the deal breaker for me.
Put it simply, she picked it out and it was way over my budget.
And I don't even think that a relationship should ever be based on material items.

But then again, I am against the entire idea of registering a marriage.
I believe that marriage should be held in the presence of God(at a church).
No need for government to tell you, "You need a license".
So that's a whole other conspiracy...

I seriously think that the television is ruining normal relationships.
Well that or maybe I just need to stay single.
Because apparently my ideals are definitely not what women want.

I just want companionship, with no pressure to buy happiness!
I already have a dog...That's what one woman told me.
Really I just want a nice girl to wake up to.

Is that too much to ask?
Please give me the females perspective so I can figure this out.

Dude you got lucky.. I am not saying she was a gold digger......, aww heck who am I kidding you got REALLY LUCKY!

But by some of logic used by some American women to justify large rings as a sign of commitment, women should be buying their fiances $50,000-$100,000 sports cars(when 70-80% of divorces are initiated by one gender[and 50% or so of marriages end in divorce] it is hard to demand a show of commitment from the other gender and maintain a straight face).

No matter. A dieing institution fit only for the rich and creepy old people.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
I'm a male. I think that women (as usual) get blamed a lot, when we have to try and talk "around" what is going on.


The true reason for refusing to marry is simply because you want to keep your options open. As long as you don't legally commit, you can leave with a lot fewer repercussions.

Giving a woman a ring (proposing) is a way of saying you trust her with something valuable; that you're not going to just abandon her when a supermodel asks you for directions to the train station. Basically that you'll be there for tomorrow, and every day after.

Refusal to marry is basically refusal to tie yourself to one person. A legitimate reason for either party to break off the relationship.

The thing is, most guys in "western culture" will not come out and tell a woman that she is ok to sleep with, but they have no intention of sticking around from then on. Since women are often ridiculed for wanting a permanent relationship, and men don't want to deal with the consequences of the fact that they intend to move on later....
...people use objects like rings to symbolize what they plan for the future.

Since people cannot be forthright about what they need and expect, they use objects to "test" each other, as the OP put it.

Think of it from the woman's perspective. If he says he loves you, but is unwilling to go to the trouble of saving up for a gift or a wedding, or even a surprise on your birthday, how is he ever going to "celebrate" anything else in life with you? If he won't scrimp and save for a wedding ring, do you really think he'll be willing to support you while you go to law school? If your emotional needs are not worth a portion of his annual income... do you honestly thinks he will personally invest in your happiness as a spouse?

Writing her a love song gets the point across just as well. But then, the guy usually can't to that, either.

Two years into the relationship, he will ignore her and play video games all evening. She wasn't worth a ring, and then isn't worth paying attention to, later. And he isn't even man enough to admit it, to her or himself.

With how draconian the law's are and how biased(to the point of anti-male bigotry) the "Family" Courts are; the simple fact that a man is willing to marry a woman is proof enough(unless she is engaging in projection[which actually fits the statistics about divorce], like how cheaters become obsessed and think they are being cheated on).

reply to post by dr_strangecraft


I personally belive though that the reason for people who live together before marriage having a higher divorce rate is because the relationship is already troubled, so they figure marriage will solve it. Many people have a bad habit of thinking life events can improve things. Such as people bringing in children to a troubled marriage.

Fact is, most people are not prepared for the rigors of marriage. No ring or ceremony has any weight on that what so ever.

But some people feel the ring or size of the wedding insures success.

I have a theory that the bigger the pomp and circumstance, the more likely the failure.

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by dr_strangecraft

 

I personally believe though that the reason for people who live together before marriage having a higher divorce rate is because the relationship is already troubled, so they figure marriage will solve it.

I bet your right, at least for some couples. I would make a counter hypothesis, though: One partner (stereotypically the female) secretly wanted marriage all along, and eventually "convinced" the other partner (stereotypically male) to go ahead and get married. But "a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still." And so the problem surfaces eventually that two people want different things.

Many people have a bad habit of thinking life events can improve things. Such as people bringing in children to a troubled marriage.

I agree with you whole-heartedly on that point. Watching a friend of the wife do this thing exactly, right now. Begetting a(nother) child will not make the husband any less of a scumbag.

Fact is, most people are not prepared for the rigors of marriage. No ring or ceremony has any weight on that what so ever.

Well, half of them are---or at least, they are learning on the job.

But some people feel the ring or size of the wedding insures success.

I have a theory that the bigger the pomp and circumstance, the more likely the failure.

I'm not sure you're right about that. Specifically religious weddings have a lower divorce rate; and IF big weddings are part of a religious event, then they would inevitably partake of the same rates.

However, I can also imagine a 'big wedding' without any religious ceremony behind it as simply going through the motions because people feel like they are "supposed to," which brings us back again to your first point.

I arrived at that thought after reading this article which says that your actual odds of divorce are MUCH lower than the 50% for "average americans" that is invariably quoted in the media:

* If you have an annual income of over $50,000, your risk of divorce decreases by 30%.
* If you wait to marry until you're over 25 years of age, your risk of divorce decreases by 24%.
* If your parents are happily married, your risk of divorce decreases by 14%.
* If you have strong religious beliefs, your risk of divorce decreases by 14%.
* If you've attended college, your risk of divorce decreases by 13%.

Again, I feel like traditions won't fix a bad problem, but they are one way of expressing things that words by themselves simply cannot convey in the same depth.

.

Most women I know are not like that. In fact, most of my married female friends had inexpensive rings (and small, intimate weddings). The only one that did have the huge wedding with the huge engagement ring was separated after only a few months.

As for my husband and myself, we do not have rings--he doesn't like rings, and I'm not about to get one just to wear around the house. Everyone considered us married, including ourselves, for years before finally getting the sheet of paper that "legalized" it, and that was mainly for insurance purposes. We did live together for a few years beforehand, and that taught us how to work together to get through any problems--it wasn't all sunshine and roses, but we came to an understanding with each other. We also came to realize that we can overcome our differences. We still have our misunderstsandings and don't always agree, but we also know that we are both in it for the long haul.

One thing that helped our relationship is the trust and freedom we allow each other. I think trust is one of the major issues as to why some women "need" a ring.

If two people truly trust and care for each other, they don't need anything other than each other to be happy.

I think that this issue probably only served to highlight hidden problems in the relationship.

If you weren't able to offer her a ring just because she wanted it, and she wasn't prepared to accept a less expensive one it would appear that you both had some difficulties in meeting each other halfway. Your individual systems of values were unlikely to ever be compatible.

Imagine, for a minute, that you wanted something. Let's say for your birthday. Something that you valued but the beauty of which would be a bit obscure to anyone else. How would you feel if your loved went out and bought it for you, even if she thought it was a load of old rubbish?

I'm a nerd and I want lots of odd stuff - I'd be crushed if someone couldn't or wouldn't try to make the effort to understand why I wanted something in particular for my birthday or Christmas. Equally, I'd understand completely if that life size model of the Alien was beyond someone's budget. A smaller model would do

Sometimes, you just have to accept that people prize stuff that means little or nothing to you. If you love them, you can indulge them with a smile on your face - if it's within your means. And this is where the other person's perceptions come into play.

You need someone with a similar set of values if you want to avoid accusations of being a cheapskate. Because other people will almost never understand what you consider to be within your budget or beyond it.

I've spent money like water on books and such. Where did all the spare money come from? I bought less food or put on extra clothing to save on the heating bills. It all comes down to priorities. And you need to spend your life with someone who shares yours.

I hope the break up wasn't too painful for either of you. From an outside perspective it seems that maybe you were better off going your separate ways

Originally posted by berenike

Imagine, for a minute, that you wanted something. Let's say for your birthday. Something that you valued but the beauty of which would be a bit obscure to anyone else. How would you feel if your loved went out and bought it for you, even if she thought it was a load of old rubbish?

I'm a nerd and I want lots of odd stuff - I'd be crushed if someone couldn't or wouldn't try to make the effort to understand why I wanted something in particular for my birthday or Christmas. Equally, I'd understand completely if that life size model of the Alien was beyond someone's budget. A smaller model would do

An absolutely brilliant post. .

That's how I feel about the "Big Wedding" or religious wedding. My wife and I had a very traditional, very religious wedding. But then, that speaks to our personal values. While it looked elaborate, it was actually the expression of a lot of people's love, and skill; her aunts making the dress, uncles cooking and serving the food, little sisters and cousins cutting the flowers and making the decorations, etc. By no means a lavish display of wealth. Rather, a lavish display of love and family.

Likewise, the rings and honeymoon accomodations were a gift from my family.

If anything, the "traditional, religious wedding" turned out to be successful, perhaps because it also showed that our extended families approved of the union, and were invested in our success.

reply to post by berenike


Everyone wants lots of stuff. Doesn't mean you should have it. Most couples are not only trying to figure each other out, they are trying to figure life out. Starting out by dumping thousands into a stone that only others deem valuable isn't the way to do it.

But then I am more practical.

My cousin got a nice engagement ring, she showed me and said: this should of been a car, that is what we need.
They were both out of college and getting started.

Though what I will agree with you in that if you want something bad enough, you will get it.

Now the price is a temporary measure for something you have for life. But then many couples end up with anniversary rings.

Now lets put the shoe on the other foot.

My stbxh lamented he couldn't buy me a diamond ring. I do not buy diamonds. Period.

Was this about me, or about his ability to provide? His own ego? Cuz I was fine with a 75$ band.

How many of these descriptions of women wanting bigger rings have actually been turned around?

reply to post by nixie_nox


It wasn't my intention to suggest that anyone should buy a diamond ring that they couldn't afford and I greatly regret it if my post came across like that. I think I said to keep things in one's budget.

I was trying to suggest that there can be a compromise and that, when buying gifts, it's important to get the other person what they'd like, even if you don't think it's anything worth having.

I think we're in agreement. Men who insist on giving their girlfriend a ring when she'd rather have something more practical are just as guilty as the guy who wants to avoid buying a ring, if she'd like one. And vice versa - women can be guilty too

Also, I don't want to imply that anyone should just be asking their significant other for something they could afford for themselves. I always buy my own stuff, but would never turn my nose up at a keepsake if one was offered by someone who cared for me.

I'd eat dry bread for a couple of weeks if it meant I could afford some special little gewgaw, but other people might prefer a decent meal. There's no right or wrong to it. BUT, if a partner asked me for a trinket and I looked them straight in the eye and said 'OK - but you'll have to live on toast for a while' and they wouldn't agree to it, then I've got a problem

That's why I was making the point about two people in a relationship having similar values and priorities.

It's sort of like what to get your lady for her birthday. Some would be offended by the gift of a lawn mower. Others would be grateful.

Sorry mistake

Relationships based on sexual intimacy and having children have evolved into a disgusting abomination that I will have no part of.

I'd rather die a lonely virgin that dive into that can of poo.

I typically do both. I try to get at least one romantic gift, and at least one practical gift (any others shake out between the categories).

That way, I'm covered.

The BEST gifts are when she mentioned something ages ago, and you remember, and got it for her. Then she knew you were listening. (Of course, the SMART way to do this is go out alone and buy it the next day (cash), and then sit on it until the next event.

Originally posted by havok
I believe that marriage should be held in the presence of God(at a church).
No need for government to tell you, "You need a license".
So that's a whole other conspiracy...

Amen on that one. Seriously though, a ring really shouldn't matter. I couldn't agree with you more. You shouldn't need a symbol of commitment if you are truly committed anyway.