God set me up? Feels that way.

There is a debate that i always bring up with a Christian that seems to always end up with questions, and false lead-ons.
I will bring a few things up that i always bring up to make things clear in the start.
Correct me if i'm wrong.

God is all-knowing. Alpha and Omega. Past present future.
God is the Creator of all.
Free will, is a structure. A blue print. Like an architecture maping his building, God created Free will for us.

My question:
Why is it, that me given the blueprints he mapped out 'Free will',
am i a sinner, and i should be punished for it?

I would be punished for a crime that lead to the source, started with the Creator, Alpha and Omega, God.

I am told i'm given the CHOICE. What choice is that, if i was created knowingly to be a sinner. I would burn no matter what (If i was to burn )
I stump all that try to answer this.
So far i've gotten people to tell me:
After they agreed god was the past present and future, that he doesn't create the future. Surely an all knowing Deity would know?...
We perceive choice differently?
Ask my pastor he knows better than me.

And my favorite...
Look to God for answers.



I want to finish this by reminding you, stay on topic. No "LOLCATS RELIGION"\
Thank you.

reply to post by Anttyk47


read this "true" event

and then let me know...


www.abovetopsecret.com...

How about this, the choices you make in your life carry on with you to your next life impacting it in a positive or negative way. We have free will not to do what we want but to do what we think is relevant and needed for us.
If free will means killing someone else then that's nothing more than slaughter, so I don't think that's the case.
We are given multiple choices for ourselves, not for others so if we give choices for others we have then sinned.
Well Imo anyway!

Originally posted by foreshadower99
How about this, the choices you make in your life carry on with you to your next life impacting it in a positive or negative way. We have free will not to do what we want but to do what we think is relevant and needed for us.
If free will means killing someone else then that's nothing more than slaughter, so I don't think that's the case.
We are given multiple choices for ourselves, not for others so if we give choices for others we have then sinned.
Well Imo anyway!

Well what seems to boggle me is that in my little question, truely we are not given the choice.
It was written down long before i did whatever i wanted to do, from my choice.
My point is we don't have a choice because the structure we are all living with, does not give us an "Override code" to the choices God forced us to make. True free will would be either god stepping down and nobody having the all knowing power, or if we are all given that power.

You don't tell someone who wants to know more about god to read something thats far too long. You keep it short and simple.

I've already told you, but everything is a choice. If your parents make you go to church and be a believer you will of course rebel as I did. But if you come about it on your own you'll learn and see to love it.

He didn't make you bad, you aren't actually bad in his eyes until you kill something he created and even then he would forgive you as long as you forgave yourself truely in your heart.

reply to post by Anttyk47


god said may the storm clouds bear down on your shoulders and may the wind blow it in your face

Originally posted by CUJOCREEP
reply to post by Anttyk47

 

god said may the storm clouds bear down on your shoulders and may the wind blow it in your face

Please elaborate.
You wouldn't like me blowing smoke up yours would you?

reply to post by Anttyk47


According to the Bible, Jesus sacrifice 'paid' a ransom to open the way to forgiveness.
What we do after, is our choice.

If we got into a car accident and blamed the Government for issuing us the license to
drive? Would that be acceptable? We had the choice in the matter.

Your not set up to be a sinner, I can understand why you would feel that way. The Bible stating
it was Sin of Adam (and Eve) that lead sin through all people. That seems pretty unfair, considering
we had nothing to do with them.
But that is why there was need for a "Messiah" (chosen one) or Savior to 'free' us from our bonds.

You say God knows everything, according to the Bible, true.
He may know what we are ultimately going to do in the end.

Though, the angels are said to 'rejoice' when someone turns from his/her bad choices.

To me, that means there is nothing about us 'written in concrete' or 'set in stone'.
We still have beautiful 'free will' and can still choose what we want to do.
He (God) may just know whats going to happen, but not do anything to make it go His way.

Like a parent, who wishes their child would go the route they feel is best, they wont 'make' them, but
sometimes as parents we can tell where they are headed, but still hope for the best.
( mom of two teens)

Originally posted by Anttyk47
There is a debate that i always bring up with a Christian that seems to always end up with questions, and false lead-ons.
I will bring a few things up that i always bring up to make things clear in the start.
Correct me if i'm wrong.

God is all-knowing. Alpha and Omega. Past present future.
God is the Creator of all.
Free will, is a structure. A blue print. Like an architecture maping his building, God created Free will for us.

My question:
Why is it, that me given the blueprints he mapped out 'Free will',
am i a sinner, and i should be punished for it?

I would be punished for a crime that lead to the source, started with the Creator, Alpha and Omega, God.

I am told i'm given the CHOICE. What choice is that, if i was created knowingly to be a sinner. I would burn no matter what (If i was to burn

)
I stump all that try to answer this.
So far i've gotten people to tell me:
After they agreed god was the past present and future, that he doesn't create the future. Surely an all knowing Deity would know?...
We perceive choice differently?
Ask my pastor he knows better than me.

And my favorite...
Look to God for answers.



I want to finish this by reminding you, stay on topic. No "LOLCATS RELIGION"\
Thank you.

I assume you were born a conscience right(internal moral compass)? That is the guide-stone of our soul's, an innate ability to tell right from wrong.

We are able to feel like almost akin to how we can feel hot and cold. What a person does with that knowledge is their own choice, the only choice a person really has.

reply to post by Anttyk47


ha ha your right,i was just being sarcastic but yes there is truth in what i said perspective wise and individual wise, im sure alot of people think "god" has a dark sense of humor in their lives due to baffling situations and how for some no matter how hard you try u get knocked back down time and time again, some have a dark cloud over them all the time and always seem to get the #e end of the stick, some have awesome luck if there is such a thing, sometimes it seems that how could there be a hell after death when its apparent hell is already here, food for thought, most secular religions were based on forms of control, ancient mind control, it still happens today, our new religion is propaganda,celebrity, and money. god to us now is not some guy in a robe with a white beard taking notes its a bunch of wealthy power addicts with white hair and buisness suits taking everything

reply to post by Anttyk47


I can only imagine all the answers that you are going to get in this post. It will boggle the mind once completed I'm sure. I'm going to do my best to tell you the truth, short and sweet.

It is true that God is the Alpha and Omega, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient. He is all knowing, this is true. Does He know the future? Of course He does, what kind of a God would He be if He didn't? But here is the fact of the matter.

God's foreknowledge does not equal predestination. If God knows that in the end that you are not going to live for Him and die in your sins through rebellion, it is not chiseled in stone. It is a foreknowledge that can be changed by your decision, but your decision alone. You see, we all deserve to die in our sins because of the sin that was brought on all mankind by Adam. But God remedied this problem through the death of His Son Jesus Christ. He did this so that no man would have to die in his sins but through the price for sin that Christ paid could be redeemed or purchased back to God. There is free will. God wants you to serve Him because you love Him, not because you are forced. You are free to choose eternal life or eternal death. The choice is totally and completely yours.
Seeashrink

Originally posted by synnergy
reply to post by Anttyk47

 

According to the Bible, Jesus sacrifice 'paid' a ransom to open the way to forgiveness.
What we do after, is our choice.

If we got into a car accident and blamed the Government for issuing us the license to
drive? Would that be acceptable? We had the choice in the matter.

Your not set up to be a sinner, I can understand why you would feel that way. The Bible stating
it was Sin of Adam (and Eve) that lead sin through all people. That seems pretty unfair, considering
we had nothing to do with them.
But that is why there was need for a "Messiah" (chosen one) or Savior to 'free' us from our bonds.

You say God knows everything, according to the Bible, true.
He may know what we are ultimately going to do in the end.

Though, the angels are said to 'rejoice' when someone turns from his/her bad choices.

To me, that means there is nothing about us 'written in concrete' or 'set in stone'.
We still have beautiful 'free will' and can still choose what we want to do.
He (God) may just know whats going to happen, but not do anything to make it go His way.

Like a parent, who wishes their child would go the route they feel is best, they wont 'make' them, but
sometimes as parents we can tell where they are headed, but still hope for the best.
( mom of two teens)

Thank you for your input.
But i find the analogy incorrect with the Parent and child.
The point i try to stress is that God is the creator.

Imagine being able to build something in three different ways. You're a half decent architecture and you want to get this done right. You choice plan "A"
God chose Free will for us. Free will is just a structure that was created for us.
The choices we make are made with the bearing that we are doing them out of the structure of free will.

If you use your imagination, you could believe that there could be different structures for humans to live with.
One example:Humans without freewill. Just happy in the garden. (Adam) And just innocent.



Simpley:I was given free will. I am put along the path that would lead me to be a sinner and not accept jesus therefore become eternally damned in hell.

I make my choices, however the choices are made by my free will that was put into me by the Creator of all.

Originally posted by seeashrink
reply to post by Anttyk47

 

I can only imagine all the answers that you are going to get in this post. It will boggle the mind once completed I'm sure. I'm going to do my best to tell you the truth, short and sweet.

It is true that God is the Alpha and Omega, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient. He is all knowing, this is true. Does He know the future? Of course He does, what kind of a God would He be if He didn't? But here is the fact of the matter.

God's foreknowledge does not equal predestination. If God knows that in the end that you are not going to live for Him and die in your sins through rebellion, it is not chiseled in stone. It is a foreknowledge that can be changed by your decision, but your decision alone. You see, we all deserve to die in our sins because of the sin that was brought on all mankind by Adam. But God remedied this problem through the death of His Son Jesus Christ. He did this so that no man would have to die in his sins but through the price for sin that Christ paid could be redeemed or purchased back to God. There is free will. God wants you to serve Him because you love Him, not because you are forced. You are free to choose eternal life or eternal death. The choice is totally and completely yours.
Seeashrink

It seems to be said by you, and by the story, that it was a fluke that Adam ate from the tree of knowledge.
But the way it seems to be presented, is that there was one plan. That was the plan. The plan that he made, with all the things he put into the world.
Jesus Christ died for our sins, but we wouldn't have sin in the world unless god allowed it. He allowed it to happen because he knew that creating adam would lead to it.

reply to post by Anttyk47


what people dont know about the bible is that its alot of metaphorical stories, adam eating from the tree of truth is code for if you try to seek the truth about things and aquire it you are damned to have your life cut short by TPTB, nothing on this planet has never nor will live for ever, alot of it is supernatural and not meant to be taken literally, the truth is, u are just as much "god" as anyone or anything else is,its all one collective consciousness, life is just a cup of coffee,better drink it before it gets cold and stale

reply to post by Anttyk47

My question:
Why is it, that me given the blueprints he mapped out 'Free will',
am i a sinner, and i should be punished for it

As long as we own the actions, we are responsible for the consequences of those actions. By "own", I mean that the ego or "I" performs them, so the ego or "I" is liable for their results.

The choice lies in living in the will of the ego, we identify ourselves with the ego, the part we play in this Drama of Life, so we experience all the ups and downs, all the consequences of everything that we do.

Personally, I don't believe that anyone is punished. We merely reap what we sow, across many lifetimes, and over time the soul gains in awareness until it is sufficiently conscious to be able to participate with full awareness in finer spiritual dimensions.

Originally posted by mysticnoon
reply to post by Anttyk47

 

My question:
Why is it, that me given the blueprints he mapped out 'Free will',
am i a sinner, and i should be punished for it

As long as we own the actions, we are responsible for the consequences of those actions. By "own", I mean that the ego or "I" performs them, so the ego or "I" is liable for their results.

The choice lies in living in the will of the ego, we identify ourselves with the ego, the part we play in this Drama of Life, so we experience all the ups and downs, all the consequences of everything that we do.

Personally, I don't believe that anyone is punished. We merely reap what we sow, across many lifetimes, and over time the soul gains in awareness until it is sufficiently conscious to be able to participate with full awareness in finer spiritual dimensions.

Lovely explanation! Your thoughts are close to the lines my beliefs. I am not seeking truth for myself, i'm seeking truth to a question that bothers me when religious folk come foward to me and try to convert me. Namely Evangelicals.
At the very least i can discuss this topic, even if my beliefs are different. I just want an answer to the story that is presented to everyone who is buying into what is being taught. Turning interpretations into one big money scam (IMO)...

I see it that we are all god. Perhaps there was a time of creation, whatever it was i don't believe i will burn for the actions that i make unless i feel desiring of it. But if the creation was that free will forced me to make my own choices, i have no choice in the matter because it has been decided. Free will is not true. It is the words we use to describe it. If we scope out of free will, in the way it is described (A gift of god) we have no choice in the end.

reply to post by Anttyk47


Thank you for your response.
Though, I'm quite curious why you find the analogy incorrect. (parent-child)
To reiterate, IMO, just like a parent, who is aware that their child will go down a specific path, just as God is
said to know. At times, a parent will have to just let their child go through those
'cause and effect' situations by the choices they make. (provided they disagree with them)

Does the parent 'set up' the child, when they know they are leading down a bad path and allow them to?

Yes, the parent did not 'create' the child, and set up the consequences, or create the world.
What I'm trying to imagine is God's viewpoint.

Creating Humans, not robots, to have a choice in their lives.
Hoping that they choose route that is best for them.
Giving them advice on how to live.
Waiting and hoping for the best, and at times having to allow the bad consequences for the bad choices.

(sounds awful lot like what I've had to do with my kids)

At best, we can agree to disagree.

One question, what do you mean exactly when you commented, 'I just want an answer to the story that is presented to everyone who is buying into what is being taught.Turning interpretations into one big money scam (IMO)...'
Is it that you believe in a God, but not in religion. If so, I'm with you there.

Originally posted by Anttyk47
Simpley:I was given free will. I am put along the path that would lead me to be a sinner and not accept jesus therefore become eternally damned in hell.

Well, if you're a Calvinist, this is covered by the Doctrine of Double Predestination. Some people are predestined for salvation, others are predestined for damnation, and there's nothing that you can do to change it, because it is accomplished by the intentional withholding of the grace that allows a person to have faith.

I make my choices, however the choices are made by my free will that was put into me by the Creator of all.

Those of us who are not Calvinists hold that God wants us to love him out of our own free will, making our choice for him and his law, rather than going our own way. He will not force you to love and accept him, any more than you'd want to force another person to love you, even if they didn't.

reply to post by Anttyk47


Again, God's foreknowledge is not predestination. You have to remember you are the natural trying to comprehend the Supernatural. We can intellectualize about God until the end of time but it will not further our understanding of Him. It comes down to either believing or not. As you know this is called faith. Faith is not needed to believe in the tree standing in your front yard. It's right there before your eyes. However, this is not the case with God. God is God and He is all in all, complete, perfect, without error. Our lack of understanding does not change who He is, nor does it change His precepts, His love, or His justice. He set a standard and man, through Adam, failed the standard. He does not need you or I to understand or approve of His plan. It just is.
Seeashrink

reply to post by Anttyk47


quote]My question:
Why is it, that me given the blueprints he mapped out 'Free will',
am i a sinner, and i should be punished for it?

Perhaps i can shed some light on your quesition...

You are born a sinner because you have lived before many times, you accumulate Good or bad Karma during your incarnations which manifests in your current incarnation as happenings, situations and more. You are not punished for your sins. Your Karma from your previous incarnations will teach you the lessons you need to learn, and how your react this Karma is how you are taught, if you react incorrectly(according to God) you are not punished, but you will be reintroduced to that Karma over and over until you get it right. Thus teaching you your lessons.

You have free will so you can react how you believe you should react to said situation... Your believe in what is truly right is how God knows if you're learning the lessons of life or not.