Vengeance and the Meaning of Democracy

The Terrorist won!

Plain and simple. They scared 2 count them 2 governments into backing down.

Now they will continue kidnapping and beheading. Spain and the Phillipines are responsible for more death.

By the way. isolationism is never the answer.

crmanager:

Now they will continue kidnapping and beheading. Spain and the Phillipines are responsible for more death.

Yeah, but none of them will be Spanish or Filipino.

From the article:

The Philippines can at least say that it was willing, as the Spaniards were willing, to pay the price of democracy. Which is: to listen to the people; to obey the injunction that public office requires listening to the public; and living up to the higher considerations that are supposed to motivate democracies.

A country that looks after its own, and which can turn its back on a policy proven to be based on the deception and fraud of allies, is a country much more qualified to engage in an honorable relationship with other nations.

If a country's public demands something from it's government, doesn't the government have to follow those wishes?

Can you not understand that not everyone places so much more value on an American life?

Would it surprise you to know that most Filipinos would probably rather see their own people safe than American ones safe?

Why? Common sense?

I'm happy that my country (Canada) didn't even get involved in this whole Coalition of the Weinies. Due to public demonstrations and massive outcry.

Democracy.

Great to see a Braves fan, a non-ignorant one (like the ones of the Braves Message Boards) at that!

As I said, I am totally cool with our administration not doing the will of the people. What I am not cool with is them pretending like everything they do is for us. They are being fakes.

Originally posted by crmanager
The Terrorists won!

Plain and simple. They scared 2 count them 2 governments into backing down.

Now they will continue kidnapping and beheading. Spain and the Phillipines are responsible for more death.

By the way. isolationism is never the answer.

This is in essence what I was trying to say earlier. (Though not as eloquently as you did! )

The governments of Spain and the Philllipines have the right to do what they think is in their best interests. They're sovereign states, no one's disputing that.

The U.S. made no attempts to force Spain or the Phillipines to keep its troops or civilians in Iraq. U.S. troops even protected them as they evacuated Iraq. (Any attempt to do so would have obviously been immoral and illegal!)

All President Bush did was give his opinion, as I gave mine earlier agreeing with him, that this was a bad idea. It's your cry of "He has no right to critize the government of Spain/The Phillipines!" that prompted my response... Does freedom of speech not apply to him like it does the rest of us?

I think Spain & the Phillipines, which have been having serious problems with Muslim terrorists for decades, played right into the terrorists' hands by withdrawing from Iraq. The terrorists got exactly what they wanted out of them; next, they'll attack again anyway and start making demands!

Believe me, I wish that isolationism was the answer for self-defense, like it was in the old days; nothing would make me happier than for all U.S. troops and hardware to be inside the 50 States & D.C., with the borders patrolled by the U.S. Army. But, we live in a world of portable and long-range weapons, so that kind of self-defense simply isn't possible anymore...


[edit on 7/24/2004 by ThunderCloud]

Clarify a few things. America was manipulated into WW1. Remeber, the US was staunchly isolationist back then, and massive public support for Germany was prevailant in the US. We had no arguement with Germany, no reason to go to war.

Until the Lusitania was sunk. Manipulation of public emotion turned against a nation they once looked very favorably upon.

There was no plan for the allies to create peace with Germany. They wanted to gain thier revenge and punish the Germans.

Also, the collapse in Russia was happening long ebfore we entered.

Anyway, back to the topic.

Who cares if the Philipines left Iraq? It was 50 friggin soldiers, who the hell cares? We lose more than that every day in our own army by rotations and such.

its not like anyone is really gonna notice they are gone. Hell, id be surprised if anyone knew they were there.

So what the hell is Bush's problem? Running off at the friggin mouth as always. Like the Philipines is essential in this quagmire.

He really is a stupid man.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Who cares if the Philipines left Iraq? It was 50 friggin soldiers, who the hell cares? We lose more than that every day in our own army by rotations and such.

its not like anyone is really gonna notice they are gone. Hell, id be surprised if anyone knew they were there.

This is very true. I think Bush was upset because he has to take Spain and the Phillipines off the 'list' of nations in the 'coalition' in Iraq -- in other words, it's not a real logisitcial concern, it's a symbolic concern for him. The Phillipines -- like many countries in the coalition -- only have a small handful of troops in Iraq, just enough to say "We're in Iraq!" Not enough to make an actual difference...

ECK, for once I am in agreement with you. Protection of our borders is paramount but thanks to NAFTA and the Supreme Court (the one that the left claims handed the 2000 election to Bush) have seen to it that our homeland security is further comprimised. I live in San Diego and am sickened by the Supreme Court's decision that will facilitate the entry of thousands of Mexican trucks into the U.S. with unlimited usage of our freeways! There is not enough law enforcement in the country that will be able to stop and check all of these rigs. So if you are a terrorist that needs to transport something large into the U.S., you can bribe some mexican trucker to do it for you.

It's insane. I don't know why the INS still even exists. They are a massive part of our security problem. And it should be purged.

If Mexican trucks are crossing into our country you can bet in short order insurance premiums will start going up.

As far as Bush getting pissy with the Philippines, it's because his "coalition of the willing" is turning into the "coalition of the few and bent over."

Note to Rove: Has anyone explained to Dubya that Democratic governments actually adhere to the wishes of its people?

You just don't get!!!

You do not negotiate with terrorist, thugs, kidnappers. You negotiate and you encourage more.

Haven't you seen that they kidnapping more EVERYDAY now that they see it WORKS!! Those people on their knees infront of the camera are there because the Phillipines and Spain buckled. Plain and simple.

And when did Democracy mean you listen to outcries of anguish? Sure it hurts to have a citizen die but there death means no one else dies.

It's past time for a change in Washington. We've clearly seen the politics of world dominance does not work. It only further creates and enflames the assigned enemy.

It's the foreign policy, stupid! Anyone who supports gunbarrel deplomacy needs to broaden their horizons; or go join the military and offer yourself up as cannon fodder.

ECK , Ummmm,.....

Yeah, I agree for the most part. Gun barrel diplomacy is usually a dead end. However, military force has to be maintained as an option.

In a perfect (or even more or less reasonable!) world, common sense and the rationally thought out and reasoned will of the people would be all that is required to get along with other nations.

But the will of one people is almost never the same as the will of any other people. The days where one nation can live well, or even survive for any length of time completely within it's own borders are long gone. Nations HAVE to interact and negotiate with each other just to survive.

Most times this can be done peacefully and with goodwill, but occasionally that will fail. Again, MOST times that's fine, the nation just goes somewhere else to find what it needs.

The problem is people get mad at each other. This is true of nations as well as individuals. It can be because of religion, economics, race, heck- almost anything! Reality sucks, but when someone gets mad at you, you had better have military force to back you up, or your nation will no longer exist.

Does this mean that you use that military force to make another nation do something you want it to? If it means the survival of your nation, you darn right you do. That's just the way things are. It ain't pretty, depending on which nation one is in, it may not even seem just. But it is reality.

Originally posted by crmanager
You just don't get!!!

You do not negotiate with terrorist, thugs, kidnappers. You negotiate and you encourage more.

Haven't you seen that they kidnapping more EVERYDAY now that they see it WORKS!! Those people on their knees infront of the camera are there because the Phillipines and Spain buckled. Plain and simple.

And when did Democracy mean you listen to outcries of anguish? Sure it hurts to have a citizen die but there death means no one else dies.

- no, you don't get it.

Spain did not buckle about anything

Maybe you're as informed as 'Thundercloud' who thinks Spain has had a Muslim terrorism problem for decades! LMAO.

So, OK, carry on, you stay wilfully ignorant as to what really happened in Spain.

It is, afterall, the 'motiff' of the current US 'right', a know-nothing pig-headed refusal to face facts which contradict your insular view of the outside world.

Then you sit crying about how come so many find you such a useless force for half-assed ignorant crud in the world.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Maybe you're as informed as 'Thundercloud' who thinks Spain has had a Muslim terrorism problem for decades! LMAO.

I never claimed to be infallible. To the best of my knowledge, the Basques in Spain are a Muslim minority, like the Chechens in Russia. The Basques have been blowing up cars and bulidings in Spain for decades now, killing many innocent Spaniards in the process. If the Basques aren't Muslim, then yeah, I was misinformed. (Who are they then?)

I do know that the Phillipines does have a serious problem with Muslim extremists, though. The Phillipines government has been asking for U.S. help with these militant extremists for many years now, and before Sept. 11, 2001 the U.S. would just give the Phillipines government money and equipment and say "Go get 'em!" However, since Sept. 11, 2001, the U.S. has been actively helping the Phillipines government; the U.S. Army is now in the Phillipines, helping train and aid the Phillipines military...

Well, well sminkeypinkey, it seems some of the "half-assed useless crud" being spewed on this thread is from your post. Yes, it is any countries right to pull out of Iraq, the UK is the only other country that has contributed a somewhat significant number of troops anyway, and Bush is just taking it personally because his "coallition" isnt holding like his daddies did. And for good reason, his war that he dragged us, and more importantly, our troops into with Iraq is unjust, and the more evidence arises of this fact, the more countries will cut and run. C'mon do you really think any government will base a major decision on the head of one man? Hell no. But it makes a convenient excuse to bail out of a sinking ship. And Spain? Theres a whole lot more involved with their bailing. Do you really think Al Queda was that interested in Spain's election? Its not like it gained them any advantage in their fight against the "infidels" in Iraq by Spain pulling out a couple thousand soldiers that were only replaced by more American soldiers. Seems to me Aznar's opposition had a lot more to gain from this perfectly timed train bombing. These countries were not giving into terrorists, they were serving there own interests which is there right. What the terrorists are succeeding in doing however indirectly, is to turn the civilized countries of the west against each other, divide and conquer. And people like sminkeypinkey who spew anti-american garbage are playing right into their hands, instead of objectively voicing his/her disagreement with the inept president that managed through his brother, the governor of FL, steal the election.

.......Maybe you're as informed as 'Thundercloud' who thinks Spain has had a Muslim terrorism problem for decades! LMAO.

I never claimed to be infallible.

- I know, no problem.

To the best of my knowledge, the Basques in Spain are a Muslim minority, like the Chechens in Russia.

- No, they are not Muslims. They are europeans in a region of north western Spain with a language and culture they see as distinct from Spainish and have been fighting for independance because of this. (It's complicated, google it and check it out if you're interested.)

The Basques have been blowing up cars and bulidings in Spain for decades now, killing many innocent Spaniards in the process. If the Basques aren't Muslim, then yeah, I was misinformed. (Who are they then?)

- There is a political wing and a militant terrorist group (ETA) and yes they have bombed and killed civillians in Spain. It has indeed, sadly, gone on for some time. Spain has given much autonomy to the region and it has helped take the temperature down but it has not solved the problem, unfortunately.

I do know that the Phillipines does have a serious problem with Muslim extremists, though. The Phillipines government has been asking for U.S. help with these militant extremists for many years now, and before Sept. 11, 2001 the U.S. would just give the Phillipines government money and equipment and say "Go get 'em!" However, since Sept. 11, 2001, the U.S. has been actively helping the Phillipines government; the U.S. Army is now in the Phillipines, helping train and aid the Phillipines military...

- Yeah, so I hear. It's another mess. One only has to think back to the whole sorry Marcos saga.

Originally posted by 27jd
Well, well sminkeypinkey, it seems some of the "half-assed useless crud" being spewed on this thread is from your post.

- massive respect to you too matey.

Yes, it is any countries right to pull out of Iraq,

- I completely agree.

the UK is the only other country that has contributed a somewhat significant number of troops anyway

- yes, of course, this is so.

and Bush is just taking it personally because his "coallition" isnt holding like his daddies did. And for good reason, his war that he dragged us, and more importantly, our troops into with Iraq is unjust, and the more evidence arises of this fact, the more countries will cut and run.

- IMO that's where his approach inevitably led. 'With us or against us' politics does not play well in europe (and nor, I suspect, in many other places either). I still don't see where we disagree yet.

C'mon do you really think any government will base a major decision on the head of one man? Hell no. But it makes a convenient excuse to bail out of a sinking ship.

- Well I guess that depends on how much arm twisting goes on. Many people in the UK for instance cannot believe Tony Blair has allied himself to Bush so closely.

Do you have any idea how much Bush is loathed outside of the US?

And Spain? Theres a whole lot more involved with their bailing. Do you really think Al Queda was that interested in Spain's election? Its not like it gained them any advantage in their fight against the "infidels" in Iraq by Spain pulling out a couple thousand soldiers that were only replaced by more American soldiers.

- yes indeed. The opposition said they would remove the troops before any bombing and I agree that in the overall scheme of things the numbers of Spainish soldiers were hardly ultra significant.

Seems to me Aznar's opposition had a lot more to gain from this perfectly timed train bombing.

- Now I don't agree here. Ordinarily, if anything, the Aznar side would have (or should have) gained. But they were caught 100% red-handed playing selfish politics over the bombing. The rest is history. A wave of angry outrage swept Spain and swept Aznar from office.

These countries were not giving into terrorists, they were serving there own interests which is there right.

- whilst this is a truth it is not the actual truth of what happened in Spain.

What the terrorists are succeeding in doing however indirectly, is to turn the civilized countries of the west against each other, divide and conquer.

- Er no, your theory here cannot apply to Spain as this is not what happened in Spain. Spain's actions were not about the terrorist bombing but about their governments behaviour following the bombing. Hello.

And people like sminkeypinkey who spew anti-american garbage are playing right into their hands,

- You got to be kidding, right? First casualty of war is the truth, huh? The story of what really happened in Spain not convenient to the script, eh?

Well heads up here's the truth. I am not anti-American, I do not hate America.

I would like to know where I have spewed any anti-American garbage.

The Bush government is not America, the political 'right' in America is not America.

I am no fan of them, I think they have done great harm and have no real clue how to effectively 'fight' AQ, that's all.

instead of objectively voicing his/her disagreement with the inept president that managed through his brother, the governor of FL, steal the election.

- Oh I think I have done that alright.

[edit on 26-7-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by 27jd
And people like sminkeypinkey who spew anti-american garbage are playing right into their hands, instead of objectively voicing his/her disagreement with the inept president that managed through his brother, the governor of FL, steal the election.

Sminkeypinkey hasn't said anything anti-American. We shouldn't accuse someone espousing a different opinion from our own as aiding terrorists or whatever. That's just wrong. Under the first ammendment we all have a right to speak our minds. That's the best thing about the USA.

My mistake sminkeypinkey, when you stated "It is, afterall, the 'motiff' of the current US 'right', a know-nothing pig-headed refusal to face facts which contradict your insular view of the outside world." I misunderstood that what you meant by 'right', was the right wing of politics, the wording threw me, I thought you were speaking of the US in general. I withdraw my statement. However we still disagree on who stood to gain from the Madrid bombing, with the country already not supportive of Aznar, the opposition would have known that if the war the citizens were already against was brought to their own soil, that would only further their support of the opposition. That is how I see it anyway. And what I meant by
" What the terrorists are succeeding in doing however indirectly, is to turn the civilized countries of the west against each other, divide and conquer" was not actually pertaining to the Spain situation, but rather the percieved hatred for America by the rest of the world, all because of an illegitimate president, that will hopefully (I will do my part for sure) be voted out decisively this November. But if the terrorists can break up the unstoppable alliance of the western world, that will make their fight a whole lot easier. That is why I get upset by anti-Americanism, when there should only be anti-Bushism. My apologies for jumping to conclusions about your views, sminkeypinkey.

[edit on 27-7-2004 by 27jd]

The Madrid bombing had to be the work of al-CIAda. It's got their stoopidity prints all over it. Why? Their modus operendi: Scare people into submission. The Spanish people, they thought, were going to drop onto their knees and beg Aznar to protect them from the "terrorists." Fortunately it blew up in their faces and had the exact opposite effect.

Go SPAIN!

[edit on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]

I still have to disagree, to put it in perspective lets pretend the Iraq war happened before 9/11, and say the American people were opposed to the war, and angry with Bush because he went to war anyway. Then 9/11 happens, and is seen as a retaliation, brought on by his war that we didnt
want to partake in the first place. It would be laid in Bush's lap, he would be blamed, we would say "see, we knew it was a bad idea, you didnt listen, and now innocent civilians have died because of your taking us into war we didnt want." Thats human nature, people in Al CIAda know this and would not take that chance. People in Aznars opposition likely also knew this. Why do you think Aznar tried so hard to blame the Basques? It was entirely different than 9/11, which we saw as an unprovoked attack, and thats why people united behind Bush, it wouldve been different if the American people thought it was his fault. You cant effectively scare people into supporting you if you cause the very thing that they didnt want to see happen, and was the reason they didnt support you in the first place.