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If Jesus knew that he was God and had God's powers, how is that considered "making a sacrafice" ?

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posted on Mar, 23 2011 @ 11:10 PM
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I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who contributed to my topic. I tried to frame the question and my posts in a way that I can get into the discussions without being too offensive or aggressive but it is sometimes hard over such emotional issues.

And someone did ask me why I would not ask questions like this to Muslims, and honestly the answer is that nearly every Muslim I ever try to talk to takes an EXTREME amount of offense to even the thought of not believing in a God (Atheism is nearly unbelievable to them) and going further into the realm of even beginning to question anything from the Qur'an seems to offend them to rage levels beyond discussion.

My PERSONAL experience (2 years in Iraq with both Shiite and Sunni Muslims) leads me to believe that the Muslim religion has not much hope for opening a channel of communication that allows even the questioning of their beliefs. As Sam Harris says

"We have a choice. We have two options as human beings. We have a choice between conversation and war. That's it. Conversation and violence. And faith is a conversation stopper."

The Muslim religion exemplifies this IMO. Without open lines of communication where we can ask each other tough questions, there is really one option. Kill or be killed or to completely ignore each other. In a world that is growing smaller by the nano second ignoring the Muslim beliefs is no longer possible.

Sooner or later even the Atheists are going to have to pick a side in the future Holy War that I believe is inevitable.




posted on Mar, 23 2011 @ 11:38 PM
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Originally posted by TomServo
It was a byproduct of the ancient Jewish/Hebrew ceremony in which they felt called to sacrifice animals in reverence to God. Pure symbolism, Jesus was the 'ultimate sacrifice' in reverence to God, for the salvation of His people. Don't forget, the sacrifice was only half of it. The resurrection sealed the deal.

Furthermore, i think you are getting confused by thinking that Jesus feared death. He knew it had to happen and he knew what was waiting on the other side of death. You can be confident that Jesus did suffer, physically and spiritually. 'Jesus' is the form that God took in order to instate the 'New Law'. If some Joe Blow walked around claiming that he was God incarnate, what do you think the first response of every person would be? Prove It! We humans are so caught up with proof, which substitutes for faith. Faith is sooo difficult for humans, and that is one major characteristic that sets so many people apart from one another. So... keep in mind that Jesus, after Messianic Consciousness, never used his, as you so eloquently call them 'magical powers' for selfish motives. But! Jesus, with all of His miraculous abilities, made sure He instilled that 'man is not saved by works alone'.

Yes, it is similar to your sitcom. God wanted to experience the human life which He created, and used this opportunity to get mankind 'on track'. However the difference is that the sole purpose of the incarnation of God was to set forth a path for the 'low life workers', so that they could join the boss in the mansion.

Btw... God did Not create sin! If you are convinced of this, i don't know what to tell ya.
edit on 23-3-2011 by TomServo because: (no reason given)


(Caveat: not a "believer"; don't begrudge you though):
:Never read 'your "good book":

You say above "God did not create sin?" I guess I must not know the definition of "sin".

Isn't a 'Sin" something that displeases God ? which he also waives; grants absolution an"forgives you for?" Yeah verily I submit an omniscient God declares what "sin" is has complete control over it.

But I've been known to question authority; "blaspheme" a bit; covet a little and enjoy a dark beer more often than I should..


just puttin it out for discussion by believers can't provide any scriptural knowledge...

edit on 23-3-2011 by 46ACE because: (no reason given)

edit on 23-3-2011 by 46ACE because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 24 2011 @ 12:43 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by idonotcollectstamps
 


You have to understand why he sacrificed himself...

As i've said before Jesus was not God, he was a man. He understood God perhaps even sent by God. He didn't have supernatural powers, those are fairytales made up by the churches to prove their God was better then everyone elses God.

He sacrificed himself to show the world there is in fact "life after death", something that wasn't a strong belief in the day . Even today theres sects of the church that still push the "one life to live" theory. Unfortunatly this is all used for control...

Put it this way, if you only had one life to live wouldn't you want to ensure your place in heaven? Well look no further, church will sell you that place with their teachings, and you must believe what they tell you because they are the guys in the big beautiful buildings with stained glass and a Cross which of course symbolizes your belief. They are the ones with the book, they tell you what to believe to get that "ticket" into heaven....and if you don't believe them, you will burn in Hell....
Sound familiar?


If God wanted to make a sacrifice for the Sins that HE CREATED why didn't he actually live a life as a HUMAN and not as an all powerful God walking among mortals?


He does my friend, hes within every one of us, experiencing life with us as each of us walk our path..


Funny; I think death islike goingto sleep; the spark goes out....and you don't exist. I shudder to think of the opposite EEEEGAADDS: "eternal life!!!!!!!!spending all eternity singing" hosanna's to the highest" next to all the jehovahs witnesses Ii left standing on the porch ringing my bell?? I'll take a pass."Winking out of existence "is actually very comforting. once you accept it.
Of course free unlimited seating; weekly concerts with Robert Johnson ( oh shucks thats' right he sold his soul to the devil at "the crossroads") Stevie Ray Vaughn; Gary Moore and Jimi Hendrix would be pretty cool!


Samuel ring it again son: Hey Mr. "We know you in dere! Saw ya peekin'!

edit on 24-3-2011 by 46ACE because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-3-2011 by 46ACE because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 24 2011 @ 01:43 AM
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Originally posted by trailertrash
reply to post by idonotcollectstamps
 




Brilliant question and point. But don't run that one by any fundys. They'll just get upset.

Jesus is not God. God does not have any sort of human body.


Upset? Hardly...Jesus is God according to the Bible, no way around it. According to opinion he could be anyone I suppose.



posted on Mar, 24 2011 @ 02:10 AM
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reply to post by mysticnoon
 


I Corinthians 12:10 it says, “and to another distinguishing between spirits” (NIV) Discernment means to be able to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil. It is having a logical, judicial ability to think through issues. It is the ability to “discern” whether a saying, teaching, doctrine, written word, or event is good or evil; true or false; and if the source, meaning or intentions are of God, the person or Satanic deception. There is an ability to “read between the lines” and get to the truth of an issue.



posted on Mar, 24 2011 @ 02:37 AM
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reply to post by idonotcollectstamps
 





Sooner or later even the Atheists are going to have to pick a side in the future Holy War that I believe is inevitable
.

I know it is late and you are not online, but I just wanted to add to your thought here. I do not want to sound offensive, so do not take this the wrong way.

I have a problem with this statement. I will not engage in someone else's religous battles. I will personally be some place, maybe in the woods wating till the day when these religions kill each other off. I might even buy a few beers and a bag of Doritos to enjoy the show. The whole religous concept of your, our, my, belief is right and yours is wrong is totally blown out of proportion and preposterous. These religous people want this war. I do not care if they say we love you please convert. Deep down religous people believe that they are right and everybody else is wrong.( I know that people will jump me for the irony of my statement here). But I believe it is a matter of logic.

So when this religous war comes and you want in my tent, boat, cabin, cave, hill, or where ever I decide to escape the calamity, you are welcome. But the first time someone says "Praise Jesus We Are Saved". You are out in the cold, water, wind, fire, or whatever place or occurance it may be. Jesus did not save the food and supplies that I have to survive. I did, and for someone to acknowledge a higher power did this, I would be seriously offended.

Education is the key, and quite frankly alot of the information, science, and education over the centuries has changed to a point where I believe that religous values will be extinct one day. I hope that I am alive to see this, but I think it will go on for several more centuries because of our human nature.

Again, I know that this statement will offend many people in this forum. This is not my intent. I just wish to put in my 2 cents and leave it at that, since it is late.

Sincerely, LJ01
edit on 24-3-2011 by liejunkie01 because: S&F for a good question in the op.



posted on Mar, 24 2011 @ 03:54 AM
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Hey! Nobody told you!? We're not supposed to question this stuff, man? SShhh. Just be cool, be cool. If you ask too many questions. . .they'll come with their neuro. . . .shh, just act natural!



posted on Mar, 24 2011 @ 03:54 AM
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reply to post by BLKMJK
 


Well, there are too much mistery in this Trinity concept. The OP question is valid and logical. If Jesus is God, there is NO sacrifice
,because he had all the power He want, because all was a piece of drama. Yes, the Bible states that the Jesus was a God, but not Almighty God. Even the Satan is a God in Bible(2 Cor. 4:4). So, in my opinion we must use our logic, because we are created in the "likeness of God".
Take for example the episode of Jesus temptation by Satan, when Jesus was on Earth(Mat 4):


v 6:
“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.”


So even Satan is declaring Jesus a Son of God, and he is sugesting that Jesus could receive help from angels if needed, so no Almighty God here.



posted on Mar, 24 2011 @ 04:19 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by idonotcollectstamps
 



He does my friend, hes within every one of us, experiencing life with us as each of us walk our path..

Nice reply I enjoyed that, but I would like to add to the perspective. First of all we really only have the churches word that he sacrificed himself for humankind. So to start off with we have assumptions about what his mission was on earth, if you can even call it a mission. Now if we just say simply, that Christ was beneficial for humankind and remove all the magical robes I feel we may get a better idea about Christ. More than anything, Christ is a reminder for us of what is a real life. That this lifestyle is possible for all of us, not in the sense that we must imitate what Christ did in his life. But more to the point, there is a more meaningful life that can be lived and known. A life where to be selfish is to be foolish; life in truth is about receiving and sharing. Not taking which is something totally different, to be free to live life in a certain manner, with heart with wisdom. To follow your inner guidance, not some misleading set of rules that lead to ignorance and unhappiness. Not to follow Icons or heroes, but to be peace and beyond manipulation.
So you see it’s more of a message for humankind, rather than a set of rules that are to be followed. Christ asks us to look deeper in to ourselves for the truth, not the church. Its about living life in a completely different way, its not something that is impossible its there for everyone who is willing to cast aside common values.
The moment we see Christ as Jesus we are not seeing Christ at all, we are being fooled by an impostor. It is easy to put words in to Jesus mouth, dress him this way and I am sure Christ knew this and knows this. It’s the same as when we meet a special person, we don’t need any proof of this. No matter what is said about this person we just know, Christ is about knowing, being a direct experience of self.



posted on Mar, 24 2011 @ 04:28 AM
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reply to post by liejunkie01
 

I simply dont believe it to be my war, therefore it really is not mine. It is only mine if I join in with the principles of either party and why would you want to do that.


Now whether we are pulled in to the situation created by a particular war, I believe that is so. You could have been farming in many parts of Europe and all of a sudden a foreign army would turn up. Normally, it was because one queen or king thought he entitled to a part of that country. Little interest did he have with the locals. It was the original form of real estate.



posted on Mar, 24 2011 @ 04:48 AM
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reply to post by TomServo
 


Great but your last line. God created the universe so he did create sin.



posted on Mar, 24 2011 @ 08:25 AM
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reply to post by GrinchNoMore
 


Hah...that's funny, friend. Wiser and more powerful people than yourself have been saying the same for the last 2000 years or so - and actively trying to snuff it out. No such luck.

The falling away IS coming, the faith itself predicts that much. The grand delusion is in place and the great apostasy rolls in, but the remnant will always remain.

Go in peace



posted on Mar, 24 2011 @ 08:32 AM
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reply to post by idonotcollectstamps
 


Well met, brother. Unfortunately, I don't think the big conflicts to come will all be religious in nature - and pretty much everyone will get involved, unless one can flee to the wilderness.

I've got warm thoughts of visiting the Hopi at four corners, myself...



posted on Mar, 24 2011 @ 08:42 AM
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reply to post by idonotcollectstamps
 


The Way, the Truth and the Life demonstrated by the Christ is about Love for all beings. Christ was the living example of such who showed what we divine children are capable of given the free will to sacrifice the flesh, the temporal material existence for the path of eternal glory--for indeed there is a better place beyond this existence if we choose to evolve to our full potential, for truly we are made in God's image.

This life I liken to a school full of unruly students of varying conscious awareness. Always choose love over acts made in fear and division. Love all your brothers and sisters in humanity even if they hate/judge you. There is nothing 'holy' about war. Much to die for and sacrifice in this mortal flesh, though nothing is worth corrupting your divinity by harming/killing another looking from the eternal perspective.

We will all reap what we sow in this life or the next. The extension of God in all of us deep down knows what is right and wrong. I wish all of us all the best for the future challenges to come.

When the veils lift beyond the flesh, so much more will be comprehended. And so many will bow their heads in shame for the harm they inflicted. They will be forgiven their transgressions and they will be loved by the Creators in spite of their imperfections because we all fall short of the purity of Christ consciousness. He knows this.

A message for All: Please don't allow any prejudices against religion come between you and your personal relationship with Jesus Christ. He loves us all equally and wants us to seek Him and allow Him into our hearts and minds to fill our lives with the divine Graces of the Holy Spirit so we may fear nothing and carry our own cross in this difficult life path. Peace.

edit on 24-3-2011 by benedict9 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 24 2011 @ 08:47 AM
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Originally posted by hornum
reply to post by TomServo
 


Great but your last line. God created the universe so he did create sin.


As noted earlier in the thread, evil is not a tangible thing -- it is simply the absence of good.

The reason for that is a bit complex, but it derives from both Judaism and Christianity not being dualistic belief systems. That is to say, there are not equal and opposite forces at work. Why? Because God has no equal, no counterpart. Why is good the tangible, and evil the lack thereof, rather than the other way around? Because good is one of the characteristics that exudes from the creator who has no counterpart, and evil is not.

By creating reality, and endowing us with free will, God creates the opportunity for sinning, for making bad decisions (which is really all that sinning is,) but he doesn't create the act itself. We do, by our choosing to not do what is right.



posted on Mar, 24 2011 @ 09:13 AM
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Originally posted by 46ACE

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by idonotcollectstamps
 


You have to understand why he sacrificed himself...

As i've said before Jesus was not God, he was a man. He understood God perhaps even sent by God. He didn't have supernatural powers, those are fairytales made up by the churches to prove their God was better then everyone elses God.

He sacrificed himself to show the world there is in fact "life after death", something that wasn't a strong belief in the day . Even today theres sects of the church that still push the "one life to live" theory. Unfortunatly this is all used for control...

Put it this way, if you only had one life to live wouldn't you want to ensure your place in heaven? Well look no further, church will sell you that place with their teachings, and you must believe what they tell you because they are the guys in the big beautiful buildings with stained glass and a Cross which of course symbolizes your belief. They are the ones with the book, they tell you what to believe to get that "ticket" into heaven....and if you don't believe them, you will burn in Hell....
Sound familiar?


If God wanted to make a sacrifice for the Sins that HE CREATED why didn't he actually live a life as a HUMAN and not as an all powerful God walking among mortals?


He does my friend, hes within every one of us, experiencing life with us as each of us walk our path..


Funny; I think death islike goingto sleep; the spark goes out....and you don't exist. I shudder to think of the opposite EEEEGAADDS: "eternal life!!!!!!!!spending all eternity singing" hosanna's to the highest" next to all the jehovahs witnesses Ii left standing on the porch ringing my bell?? I'll take a pass."Winking out of existence "is actually very comforting. once you accept it.
Of course free unlimited seating; weekly concerts with Robert Johnson ( oh shucks thats' right he sold his soul to the devil at "the crossroads") Stevie Ray Vaughn; Gary Moore and Jimi Hendrix would be pretty cool!


Samuel ring it again son: Hey Mr. "We know you in dere! Saw ya peekin'!


I appreciate the fact you're trying to be funny, you should probably work on your act though...

My friend let me tell you one thing... Some things are true regardless of your belief.

When you die you will return home, you will forget the emotions of the flesh because you will have no need for them. You will not care of others religions because religion is a human concept and has little to do with your spirit. I wish i could tell you what it was like, but like yourself i was blinded from the memory of my past. You've been there before many times and so have i and everyone else for that matter...

So you believe whatever you will, walk your path...

And we'll all have beers at the finish line




posted on Mar, 24 2011 @ 09:15 AM
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Originally posted by hornum
reply to post by TomServo
 


Great but your last line. God created the universe so he did create sin.



Of course he did...




posted on Mar, 24 2011 @ 09:20 AM
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People fail to grasp God's code of Justice as it is harder to understand to a mortal that lives 70-100 years.
Adam threw away a perfect human life, he corrupted the entire human family because he hadn't had children yet.
A perfect human that chooses to sin on purpose creates physical genetic flaws that eventually lead to old age and death. Adam was the original mold, he passed on that genetic curse/flaw to all humanity.
God's form of Justice is so powerful that even he is not immune to it, he needed to send a redeemer to this earth somebody he could really trust, as the fate of all humanity for all time would be in this persons hands.
There could be only one, his only son Jesus Christ. His sacrifice redeemed all humans whether they have faith in God and Jesus or not. Do you think that somebody that lived & died 1000 years ago in China and never even heard of Jesus Christ isn't covered by the ransom?
Everybody is covered, when ever they lived, where ever they lived, and whether they believe or not.

The OP fails to consider the power of faith, especially faith in the ability for God to resurrect those that die, to life again. Jesus had this faith, but it was still hard for him to go through the trials he went through. In fact Jesus died from a form of heart failure produced by stress and what is known as "broken heart syndrome".

The OP has no idea what a huge insult he makes to God & Jesus, good thing comments made in such absolute ignorance are covered by the exact sacrifice he insults.
edit on 24-3-2011 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 24 2011 @ 10:46 AM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 


Blue Jay you walk a very fine line between rational discussion and unavoidable conflict. Once a question is regarded as "Absolute" such as your statement "absolute ignorance", there can be no greater condemnation for the search for truth.

Once a question is regarded as a "huge Insult to God and Jesus" the concept of being ALLOWED the opportunity to freely question the words in the Bible comes under the gun.

As I stated previously once rational critical thinking and questioning is considered too taboo then we are left with conflict. Discussions, or war. And if the discussion is to be considered "a huge absolute ignorant insult" we go no where. These types of terminations of the lines of communications do nothing to further either of our beliefs.



posted on Mar, 24 2011 @ 05:10 PM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 



The OP has no idea what a huge insult he makes to God & Jesus, good thing comments made in such absolute ignorance are covered by the exact sacrifice he insults.


Do you imagine that God is so petty that He would be insulted by the kind of questions asked by the OP?



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