Public enemy number one: Organised Religion.

But i think more to the point "organized" religion does not really exist as it once did. How many different branches of christianity are there? They still can't agree if being gay is wrong or not, if abortion is okay, is sex before marriage is okay and a whole lot of other things. Religion may be many many things but organized is not one of them.

reply to post by mamabeth


Why is an open civil discussion about religion always viewed as an attack? Can no one have a view other than yours? Facts are plain and simple religion since its conception has done nothing but divide man against man and brother against brother. It is a fact that you can practice being a spiritual person without being dedicated to a specific religion.

Originally posted by gandalphthegrey
They brainwash their believers.
They prey upon the weak.
They don't pay a single penny/cent in taxes.
They hoard wealth , knowledge , important literature and works of art , that belong to the masses.

Let's not forget the amount of wars that have been fought in the name of...

I read all this and thought you were talking about your government - not organized religion. To the larger point why is it that people cannot understand the difference between organized religion and people of faith? Can we all agree that government is enemy #1 - look at what has been done in its name... Can't we play this game with EVERYTHING? The idea and what people do with ideas are two different things. Just look at the genocide performed in the name of evolution and Darwinism.

reply to post by AmerikanDekline


Religion has not devided man anymore than man does that himself. For example in soviet russia they had state atheisim and Stalin killed millions of his own people 3 million officially officially but stalin was notorious for changing history so the real number is much higher than that. And that is just one Atheist dictator people will find a way to gain controll of the masses and kill people they don't like but atheists do it just as well as any religion has.

reply to post by TechVampyre


New age mysticim! Just another false religion. So obviously false.

reply to post by Darkk


Religion most certainly does divide man against each other. How would you explain the countless religious wars that have occurred since religion was put into place? And i have one question no one has been able to ever answer so ill just throw it out there for anyone willing to give it a shot. Religion is about love and compassion right? Why then must they use fear as a tactic to scare people into believing certain things rather than just furthering their cause through love? Never understood that.


My fault i thought you said that it doesn't divide man i went back and read it and saw that you said that it doesnt divide any more than man does so im sorry for that

The Bible warns about following the traditions of men. That's what religions are, the traditions of men.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Then in the book of Revelation God commands us

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

He's actually talking about Babylon. Organized religion and Babylon are one and the same.

Power Corrupts;
Absolute power corrupts absolutely;
I am all-powerful.
Draw your own conclusion.
God

"Philosopher Bertrand Russell wrote:
"'Religion is based... mainly upon fear... fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand.... My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race.'"

The Horrible Truth About Religion

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Excerpt:
“Anyone who believes this story is indeed lost because to believe that a god would send his only son to help us, only to see his son get tortured and murdered, and then instead of unleashing all his wrath, simply absolve us from all crimes past and present, is pure madness to say the least. Where is the lesson for us in that? What has been achieved? There is no lesson or purpose because it's all about mass psychological enslavement and disempowerment.

The so called god that we are expected to worship is undoubtedly just a dictator strawman concocted by the religious elites for the purpose of controlling the masses. If there is a prime creator in this universe then it is unlikely that he would interfere and impose on us by foisting his arbitrary laws, let alone need and demand our frivolous worship and blind obedience. Neither of those things requires any level of mental aptitude or creativity. The intelligence and skills that's been given to many has gone totally to waste.”

This article covers several aspects of the subject.

The site has many articles of interest, This is a contents page for this section:

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Really guys, can we disagree without stooping to personal attacks?

reply to post by IAMIAM


Hello IAMIAM just made an account today and wanted to say that i have followed your threads for a long time (know this isn't one of them) just wanted to say the things you write about are truly amazing keep up the good work. Look forward to hopefully chatting in the near future.

Originally posted by AmerikanDekline
reply to post by IAMIAM

 

Hello IAMIAM just made an account today and wanted to say that i have followed your threads for a long time (know this isn't one of them) just wanted to say the things you write about are truly amazing keep up the good work. Look forward to hopefully chatting in the near future.

I have still been watching this thread closely..I'm not in the mood to participate at this point with anything that would be relevant.. It's been a long day for me to say the least. I was not even going to bother posting in the thread again but i had to just say this..

I would just like to add that is a very good point you bring up AmerikanDekline, IAMIAM is a amazing contributor to the boards..And I personally, STRONGLY respect his option. I have read many of the threads he has authored, and many of his posts.. and i have a great deal of respect for this member.

IAMIAM keep up the great work on the boards.

EDIT: and star for you AmerikanDekline for going out of your way to bring this point up. It's not everyday i see little act's of kindness like this.. This is truly what makes us all equal ..Human emotion .. Something to be proud of.. If i could give you applause i would.

Satan has attacked the Bible which is the Word of God every since God first spoke to man.

In the Garden when the Devil tempted Eve she quoted what God had said, that they were not to eat the fruit of the tree of in the middle of the garden of Eden and would die if they did. The Devil replied, "That is not true, you will be like God."

Since NT times Satan's has tried to destroy the Word God. After the church began he immediately began to sow doubts about the Bible in men's hearts. False teachers plagued the early church with all kinds of false teachings.

The Lord Jesus said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes” (Mt. 11:25).1 This expresses one of the mysteries and yet one of the glories of the Christian faith. True understanding of the Word of God is not dependent upon or even necessarily associated with what the world thinks of as learning or intelligence. Those who are accounted great minds by the world can be surprisingly clueless when it comes to the understanding of Scripture.

reply to post by Faith2011


This topic has nothing to do with Satan.. I think even most Christians can agree Satan is a manifestation.. But if you want to replace "Satan" with "Government" it may have some grounds..

I like how you watched Zeitgeist... and then made a thread on it as if it was a revelation. Good Job.

The religious section of Zeitgeist is a load of rubbish, it has been debunked numerous times on ATS.

Do more than 5 minutes of research with a free thinking mind and you will find this out for yourself as well.

Originally posted by Caleb.K
I like how you watched Zeitgeist... and then made a thread on it as if it was a revelation. Good Job.

The religious section of Zeitgeist is a load of rubbish, it has been debunked numerous times on ATS.

Do more than 5 minutes of research with a free thinking mind and you will find this out for yourself as well.

Go re read this entire thread and respond with something useful..As, you clearly did not read any of it.. This has already been discussed.

Don't come at me with insults.. Do more then 2 minutes of skimming a thread and then you may have the grounds to respond to it with something of value.

you said:

Originally posted by TechVampyre

Originally posted by Darkk
reply to post by TechVampyre

 

It was not meant to be taking the way the first poster's perceived it.. It is kind of hard to have a debate without anyone getting offended on this topic.. you should know that

It is even harder when your facts are made up

prove to me they are made up. For once i want to be on the other side of this debate.. PROVE TO ME GOD IS REAL IF YOU ARE SO CERTAIN.

I can not prove to you what I have offered is the truth. Just as you can not prove to me it is not. This is what the thread was meant to be about. Perhaps i presented it in the wrong way.

edit on 23-3-2011 by TechVampyre because: (no reason given)

___

I) The universe could not have been a "product of chance".

Logically, there is an equal probability of the universe existing vis a vis its not existing (It is as someone may say 50/50). Existence will not give itself preponderance over non-existence except by being designated with it, by other than itself, i.e., it is dependent upon being designated with existence.

II) The universe is not self-created.

A thing cannot create itself. Whatever is non-existent is incapable of doing anything, much less allegedly "create itself". The action itself is dependent upon the existence of that thing in the first place. Furthermore, to claim, for instance, that the universe created itself, entails two contradictions simultaneously. It would be like claiming that the universe existed before and after itself to create itself. This also breaks the Law of Non-Contradiction, which is "the basic law of logic which states that it is not possible for something to be and not be at the same time"

Law of Non-Contradiction

III) The universe is not beginning-less..What if someone told you "I will give you this dollar after an infinite amount of time". Will you ever receive this dollar? No. Likewise, if an infinite amount of time preceded the present, will it ever be traversed? No. The claim entails that an infinite amount of time can be traversable - which is impossible. In other words, an explanation:

Premise A: We exist here today.

Premise B: Before we existed there were a series of events, one after another leading up to our existence today. (The passing of such a series of events is what we call time, and measure in minutes, days, weeks and years.)

If one accepts Premise A, then one must also accept that the series of events in premise B must have a beginning. This must be, because if someone claims that an eternal amount of events had to be concluded before his existence, then he is saying that eternity came to an end, which is a contradiction in terms. It is like if someone said “this car will only get to its destination after its wheels have spun infinitely many times,” and then claimed that the car arrived at its destination. It is clear, however, that the car could never have gotten to its destination if an infinite number of spins was the condition for its arrival.

Those who claim that the world has no beginning are in fact saying that it is a prerequisite for tomorrow to arrive that an infinite number of events first take place. This is impossible, because infinity cannot end. Clearly then, the number of events that precedes our existence must have a limit.

In addition, since it is necessarily true that this series of events has a beginning, then it must also be that before this beginning there were no series of events (defined as anything with a beginning). If someone claimed otherwise, then they would end up with the same contradiction (saying that infinity came to an end). Accordingly, the claim that the world was created by random events is irrational.

Rather, there must be a Creator that gave the series of events existence, since it was nonexistent before it began. Moreover, since it is impossible for there to be any events before the existence of this series, then it must also be that the Creator is not attributed with events, i.e. with any attribute or action that has a beginning. This again means that the Creator does not resemble His creation, since all created attributes must have a beginning. Actually, having a beginning and being a creation is the same thing. This is because to create is to bring into existence, and everything with a beginning must have been brought into existence.

We know from the above, by mathematical precision and logical necessity, that the Creator exists and does not resemble His creation. From the fact that the world has a beginning, we have proven that it must have a creator. The name of this creator is Allah in Arabic. If someone asks, “Who created Allah?” we say Allah does not have a creator, and does not need one as He has no beginning. If someone then asks, “how can you accept that Allah has no beginning, while you do not accept that the world has no beginning?” The answer is that we have shown that the world has a beginning based on the fact that it changes (changes are events). We do not believe, however, that Allah changes. Rather, we believe The Creator is One, and doesn’t change and has no beginning.

The fact that Allah does not resemble His creation can also be known by saying that since The Creator's existence must be (as shown above), then it cannot also be merely possible (since “must be” and “possible” are incompatible meanings – something cannot be both a must and a possibility at the same time). Therefore, The Creator must be clear of any attribute that belongs to the possible category of things. For example, weakness, limits, boundaries and needs are attributes that may or may not have existence; their existence depends on them being created; their existence is a possibility, not a must. They need a Creator to specify their limits. We know that we need a Creator, because we know that our own attributes need specification. We know they need specification because they have limits, and limits must be specified. For example, if you pointed at a table in a room and said, “Who made it in that shape?” and someone answered, “No one, it is just there like that eternally!” Would you accept this? Of course not, because we know anything limited needs someone to specify it.

If someone asked: If an event can be defined as an action that has a beginning and giving a series of events existence is an action with a beginning (and if it’s not, then what is it?), then how can one rationally conclude, based on the logic presented above, that the Creator is not attributed with events?

The answer to this is that we did not define events as actions having a beginning, but as “anything that has a beginning.” Actions may have a beginning, namely the actions of creation – as they all share this resemblance, or they may not, namely the actions of Allah.

Allah does not resemble His creation, so He is not an event or attributed with events. This is because to “create” is to “bring into existence,” and all events are therefore by definition created. As Allah’s attributes are not creations, they are not events.

Last but not least, in attempt to confuse, or out of confusion some may ask:

“What if the world’s existence is cyclical?” Our answer to this is that cycles are still one cycle one after another, so they are events. Some may also ask, in an attempt to confuse: “Before Allah created this series of events, was He able to create another series or not?” Our answer to this is that this is a nonsensical question, because what we established was that there must be an event that is first, regardless of the number of series, or the number of worlds preceding the current one. We also established that Allah’s actions are not events, so they are not described with a “before.”

^this was taken from: Sunnianswers

And just a note...

IV) Due to empiricism not applying to it, it does not necessitate that the thing's existence must be nixed.

Just because something isn't empirical doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I have never seen another person's mind; yet I hesitate not in believing that the people I deal with have minds/intellect. I see that in their speech and behavior--that is, I see the signs of their intelligence, and likewise, when I see the creation, I see the signs for The Creator's Existence.

Nowadays, scientists are able to discover many things because of technological advances. One hundred years ago, some empiricists would say since amoebas aren't observable, they don't exist. To the contrary, in the present day, one can use a microscope and see that it surely exists - such an application of empiricism is flawed.

Originally posted by TechVampyre

Originally posted by hawaii50th
reply to post by TechVampyre

 

And here I was looking forward to having some interesting discussion. I wanted to share my info. as we went along.

Feel free to participate with anything you have to add.. Unfortunately the original concept of the thread is long gone.

First of all, thanks for the invite.
Second, IamIam put it together pretty good. You know the first time IamIam and I crossed paths we didn't agree on a hugh level. But over time, I have seen a different person in him that has a very good message coming into view.
Stars for you IamIam, keep up the faith.

reply to post by Reprobation


Oh man!.. Star for you.

This is great! But how does this explain the existence of god ? Unless you come to the conclusion that the universe is god..

But yet i can't help but wonder what was hear before that ? What created the thing that created us ? even you don't have all the answers my friend. The truth is way above all of us..

So in a since i suppose the idea of "god" could exist, if you could accept the fact of never truly grasping what "god" actually is..

Originally posted by AmerikanDekline
Hello IAMIAM just made an account today and wanted to say that i have followed your threads for a long time (know this isn't one of them) just wanted to say the things you write about are truly amazing keep up the good work. Look forward to hopefully chatting in the near future.

Originally posted by TechVampyre
I would just like to add that is a very good point you bring up AmerikanDekline, IAMIAM is a amazing contributor to the boards..And I personally, STRONGLY respect his option. I have read many of the threads he has authored, and many of his posts.. and i have a great deal of respect for this member.

IAMIAM keep up the great work on the boards.

Originally posted by hawaii50th
Second, IamIam put it together pretty good. You know the first time IamIam and I crossed paths we didn't agree on a hugh level. But over time, I have seen a different person in him that has a very good message coming into view.
Stars for you IamIam, keep up the faith.

I appreciate the sentiments my friends, but I really do nothing. What you find in my words comes from within you. That is the secret to these symbols we put into books and now share on computer screens around the world. They are nothing until they are observed by another and that person puts meaning to them. The meaning assigned comes from themselves.

Truth is universal because when truth is hit upon, it isn't through some miracle that someone has managed to convince another it is true, it is because he has said what all know resides in the heart. If my words seem amazing, it is because of the amazing truth within YOU, not me. I simply put the symbols out there that draw out your own wisdom.

I am a fool for love, that is all.

So, give all credit to that universal consciousness that resides in our heart. Call it God, the Father, Allah, Krishna, Grand Father, what ever you will, but give it all the credit for endowing us with this universal truth buried within us all.

May it unite us into the Brotherhood of Man.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by TechVampyre


You said:

Oh man!.. Star for you.

This is great! But how does this explain the existence of god ? Unless you come to the conclusion that the universe is god..

But yet i can't help but wonder what was hear before that ? What created the thing that created us ? even you don't have all the answers my friend. The truth is way above all of us..

So in a since i suppose the idea of "god" could exist, if you could accept the fact of never truly grasping what "god" actually is..

______
I don't think you read the whole thing -.- . Those three questions you asked were answered in it. Oops forgot to title III. Well, I just edited it. III confutes the idea of the universe being beginning-less. By the way, the arabic word "Allah" and "The Creator" are synonymous, if you didn't know.

The post proves that the universe is in need of a Creator to exist.

If someone asks, “Who created Allah?” we say Allah does not have a creator, and does not need one as He has no beginning. If someone then asks, “how can you accept that Allah has no beginning, while you do not accept that the world has no beginning?” The answer is that we have shown that the world has a beginning based on the fact that it changes (changes are events). We do not believe, however, that Allah changes. Rather, we believe The Creator is One, and doesn’t change and has no beginning.

The universe isn't The Creator. I just proved that the universe has a beginning, and that The Creator is apodictically beginning-less.

Originally posted by Reprobation
I don't think you read the whole thing -.- . Those three questions you asked were answered in it. Oops forgot to title III. Well, I just edited it. III confutes the idea of the universe being beginning-less. By the way, the arabic word "Allah" and "The Creator" are synonymous, if you didn't know.

The post proves that the universe is in need of a Creator to exist.

If someone asks, “Who created Allah?” we say Allah does not have a creator, and does not need one as He has no beginning. If someone then asks, “how can you accept that Allah has no beginning, while you do not accept that the world has no beginning?” The answer is that we have shown that the world has a beginning based on the fact that it changes (changes are events). We do not believe, however, that Allah changes. Rather, we believe The Creator is One, and doesn’t change and has no beginning.

The universe isn't The Creator. I just proved that the universe has a beginning, and that The Creator is apodictically beginning-less.

Thank you for joining us and sharing such a wonderful description of Allah.

I believe your description explains why it is forbidden to make an image of Allah. There is nothing that would fit the image, therefore it is in vain to try. This is the same reason it is written in the commandments of Moses

1. Thou shall have no other God's before me.
2. Do not make any graven images of God.

To do so negates the logic behind the creator and in fact only serves as a lessor understanding of that which created.

I hope to see more contributions from you my friend.


Salam Alaikum,

Your Brother