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Creator or Chance Accident - I will prove this to you!

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posted on Mar, 23 2011 @ 10:26 AM
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Exactly. There have been many inspired writers throughout history. One of my favorites is the Discourses of Rumi. I think he was a great thinker and had a connection to God. He was a Sufi (Muslim).

As for your other comments. The way I see it, good and evil are a degree of the same thing. Just like hot and cold are one thing--degrees of temperature. I can think I am good, but there are always others better than myself. The best person to live cannot compare to God. There are no limits to his cup being filled so we are always trailing Him. From our perspective, everyone we know is at a differing degree above or below.

Pride places us above God in our minds. Genesis ch 3 calls it correctly. We made the choice in the garden to walk apart from God for our education in knowledge. God said we will live life in toil as a consequence. History proves Him right. He has taught us along the way through Jewish scientists. All we know from science has roots in the Jewish people. Check this list.


Originally posted by catwhoknowsplusone
If the bible is true, and God created man in His image, then God is a very damaged and flawed deity.

While you get individual people who are totally godlike - and I am not joking here - I am referring to those people who daily risk their lives saving others, you also get the total arseholes of the world - murderers, abusers, and everyone who ever harms a child in any way.

So, was the creator saying that he or she is in need of the psych ward?

Because people are the best and the worst.

Having said that, I am a Jesus believer, but I do not rule out others who teach love, forgiveness, kindness and charity.

edit on 23-3-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)
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posted on Mar, 23 2011 @ 11:14 AM
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Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Reason 4
Back to my previous article statement. No river flows above its source. This is obvious. Apart from conscious effort, nothing like consciousness can arise apart from some other conscious effort and choice.


You're making it all too complicated.

I can give proof just as logically sound as yours, much more briefly.

No river can rise above its source, (metaphorically speaking,) therefore no bird can rise above its source, therefore there must be a god, or lots of tiny gods, to hold up all the birdies as they soar upwards.



posted on Mar, 23 2011 @ 11:26 AM
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Originally posted by SuperiorEd
before your system gets sent to recycling.

Where's the love in this?

If you want to proof God, proof Love.. so simple but why some people rather proof God using intellectual means first and foremost.

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love - 1 John 4:8



posted on Mar, 23 2011 @ 11:49 AM
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The biggest problem with the entire notion of a creator-entity is the assumption that time is a linear thing, like a river flowing from the past into the future. But that's just an illusion created by our limited perceptual abilities, like seeing the Earth as the stable center of the solar system.

As it turns out, time is more like boiling water, flowing and bubbling in all directions. So there really is, or was, no "beginning." There is only observation (which separates what could be from what is), and expansion. We observe reality in the present, and it expands backwards in time through multiple dimensions. And all life throughout the universe works together to actualize it in the present, past, and future.

You can call that "God" if you want, but it really doesn't fit most people's definition of a single, separate benevolent consciousness controlling everything. It's more like a dimension, a stabilizing characteristic of reality that naturally arises out of life (consciousness that brings order to chaos and observes itself).



posted on Mar, 23 2011 @ 01:27 PM
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The proof still stands. All creatures that are animated have a domain in which they reside. Except for humans that is. Humans can reside in all domains. Again, we are much more complex than the entire nature filled planet. This is ultimately the proof that cannot be argued. Our source is higher than us. Nothing that is capable of rising in nature can surpass its source. All animals have consciousness, but humans have reasoning abilities to see differences of degree. We know good from evil, just as a 6,000 year old book claims. There are no errors in truth in the Bible. Try as you might, it stands the test of time. That's another proof. It predicts the future (another proof). It accurately describes human nature and the reasons behind it (proof). It makes claims that can now be verified. It has accurately recorded historical events (proof).

Just call it what it is--TRUTH! God is real and is what he claims. There is no reason to doubt.


Originally posted by Kailassa

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Reason 4
Back to my previous article statement. No river flows above its source. This is obvious. Apart from conscious effort, nothing like consciousness can arise apart from some other conscious effort and choice.


You're making it all too complicated.

I can give proof just as logically sound as yours, much more briefly.

No river can rise above its source, (metaphorically speaking,) therefore no bird can rise above its source, therefore there must be a god, or lots of tiny gods, to hold up all the birdies as they soar upwards.




posted on Mar, 23 2011 @ 01:33 PM
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I agree, but I look at it somewhat differently. Time is creation. There is not future of past. The only thing that exists is the ever-present now. We have the ability to throw our mistakes into the future as lessons learned and then watch them pass us back by again. This is repentance. We also have the ability to reflect on the past moments. If a human does this job correctly, the future choices match the past in equilibrium. This is Atonement, or At-One-Ment with degree. Good and evil and all other degrees of difference can be in balance. This is what God desires for us. Love is His bestowal to us of life. That's enough for me to make sure I humbly seek Atonement. Grace is his free gift of unmerited favor toward us. We owe all to him.


Originally posted by Blue Shift
The biggest problem with the entire notion of a creator-entity is the assumption that time is a linear thing, like a river flowing from the past into the future. But that's just an illusion created by our limited perceptual abilities, like seeing the Earth as the stable center of the solar system.

As it turns out, time is more like boiling water, flowing and bubbling in all directions. So there really is, or was, no "beginning." There is only observation (which separates what could be from what is), and expansion. We observe reality in the present, and it expands backwards in time through multiple dimensions. And all life throughout the universe works together to actualize it in the present, past, and future.

You can call that "God" if you want, but it really doesn't fit most people's definition of a single, separate benevolent consciousness controlling everything. It's more like a dimension, a stabilizing characteristic of reality that naturally arises out of life (consciousness that brings order to chaos and observes itself).



posted on Mar, 23 2011 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by SuperiorEd
The proof still stands. All creatures that are animated have a domain in which they reside. Except for humans that is. Humans can reside in all domains. Again, we are much more complex than the entire nature filled planet.

What's really interesting about this rant is that it's typically atheists that are accused of hubris by theists.


This is ultimately the proof that cannot be argued.

This is hardly proof. This is, at best, pseudoscientific quasimetaphysical rambling.


Our source is higher than us. Nothing that is capable of rising in nature can surpass its source.

Define source. Trying to use analogies to compare bodies of water, which are not living, to organisms, which are, is hardly apt.


All animals have consciousness, but humans have reasoning abilities to see differences of degree.

So do many types of animals. We are hardly unique in any of our mental characteristics. Further, you're forcing a human model of intelligence on non-human species. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail... even if it's a screw.


We know good from evil, just as a 6,000 year old book claims.

Six thousand years old? Really? Care to cite a source for that?


There are no errors in truth in the Bible. That's another proof.

Except where it says pi = 3. (I Kings 7:23)


Try as you might, it stands the test of time.

It's oldest part has been around no longer than a variety of other religious texts so, according to this standard, they all have equal weight.


It predicts the future (another proof).

Citation needed.


It accurately describes human nature and the reasons behind it (proof).

Citation needed.


It makes claims that can now be verified.

Except where it makes claims that are refuted. See: the age of the Earth, evolution, global flooding...


It has accurately recorded historical events (proof).

Citation needed.


Just call it what it is--TRUTH! God is real and is what he claims. There is no reason to doubt.

Except it's not, as anyone who has read it with a critical eye can attest to. It's a book of laws for desert dwellers who have been dead for over four thousand years and parables about trying to hold a disparate society together dished out to the masses as religion for easy control.



posted on Mar, 24 2011 @ 12:58 AM
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reply to post by SuperiorEd
 

There is nothing more to that harangue than the Argument from Complexity.

Which has long been debunked.

You have proved nothing. Notice how only the other believers are agreeing with you?



posted on Mar, 24 2011 @ 05:56 AM
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reply to post by Astyanax
 


Seconded. This is nothing more than the exact same sort of "BUT LOOK AT HOW COMPLICATED IT IS!" claptrap that has been going on from the creationist side from time immemorial.

Please, provide a reason why complexity necessitates a creator.

To further hammer home how ridiculous your assertion is, I'm just going to borrow an example from PZ Meyers

This wall was created:



This wall arose naturally:



Clearly the natural wall is far more complex.


To go even further, I'll point out an example of something whose simplicity is the key to us recognize its origins with a creator:




posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 03:47 AM
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Originally posted by SuperiorEd
I will open with a quote from an article I recently wrote:

"The world contains many creeds and faiths, but one central truth should not be overlooked: The flow of all we know is made up of many branches from the same stream, a great river divided many times over. The raging torrent of this river may be blocked by disbelief, but the main body of the flow emanating from the source will never be confined in one place for long. Realizing the initial first cause that governs the universe is the preliminary step for navigating the stream. All scholarship throughout history is a struggle against this flowing current as it meanders its way back to the original spring of creation.

As we each make our way through this stream of education for the soul, the direction of current we follow, and the choice of branches we take, will determine our progress as we drift through our brief lives. The three teachers of choice, chance and the actions of others uniquely influence the journey of each soul. Although we do not always have control over choice, we can clearly see that chance is motivated by providence—the guiding hand of God. Providence ultimately defines all outcomes in an effort to influences choice in the direction of truth. If providence can be seen as shaping our choices by spiritual influence, then recognizing the purpose of these influences should be our primary concern in life. Purpose will be unique to each member of the human family."

Here's the reason for this thread: I a hear many people profess science and reason as an excuse to doubt a Creator. Let me give you a few reasons to believe in the possibility that God is all He claims. I don't ask you to believe me, just consider the possibility.

Reason 1
After less than 100 years with computers, mankind has created his own virtual reality by using information and energy, which works by a process of governing laws and procedures. What could we do with a billion more years of development? Could we step into the virtual environment? Do you think our creations would have a chance to keeping up with our progress compared to theirs? Do you think they could comprehend what is behind the veil of energy.

Reason 2
After a billion years of revisions to SIMS, would there be any difference between our reality and the one we create? Would both require information and energy? This question matters because we have essentially proved God possible by the work of our own hands. The probability can be readily demonstrated and is obvious for anyone with a scientific mindset.

Reason 3
Assuming we create consciousness like God in a virtual world of energy, would we limit our creations to some measurable stopping point? Would we allow it to learn lessons the hard way? Confucius said, "I hear I forget. I see I learn. I do and I understand." Would a billion years of learning lessons the hard way, for our species, provide the ultimate understanding in goodness, loving-kindness and altruism? Could we shake off our greed, lust, hate, malice, envy and arrogance if given the proper lessons from our own creator over time? Would a limit to our patience be set into the time sequence of the program?

Reason 4
Back to my previous article statement. No river flows above its source. This is obvious. Apart from conscious effort, nothing like consciousness can arise apart from some other conscious effort and choice. Does this preclude a God who always was and who will always be? Apart from observation of the spirit world and higher dimensions, it would be presumptuous of us to decide before we die and find out. Our own experience in this reality as creators should demonstrate that we are rising toward a source grater than ourselves. Even our own creations do not rise unless programmed to do so.

Reason 5
We are an obvious bio-mechanical robot with encoded programming and functioning at a nano level of engineering. Do I need to say more?

Conclusion:
We are the products of a loving God who has created more than a few planets with life. Take a look at the sky some night and ask yourself, "Does God have the experience needed to teach us the procedure for inheriting the universe and eternal life?" Can a program be saved, copied and placed in an updated computer? Is God capable of doing this through salvation from this reality?

Personally, I will give Him what is due: Faith, hope and love. That's all He has ever asked of me in this school of reality. Salvation is that simple.

Christ is the updated code you need to properly reboot. Better download Him and hit run before your system gets sent to recycling.






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Infinite regression is never proof of God. Just saying...



posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 10:19 PM
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This is where the Atheist always goes. Insult and bias from a fixed mindset. I have provided a plausible explanation that shows mankind can produce such a reality at the basic level. We prove such a creation is possible. I have also given an airtight argument which proves our origin is not of this world. I hear no argument against my points except simpleminded bias.

Nothing apart from consciousness rises above its source, yet we have risen above the earth. This is not demonstrated in any way in nature. Give me one example! I have not heard anyone refute this with any example to the contrary. Bias is not an answer. Show me anything on earth that flows beyond the Earth apart from consciousness. Also, while you are at it, provide me with the scientific fact that explains consciousness.

Our body is an obvious bio-mechanically engineered suit at the nano level. All parts of the tiny universe called the human body work with purpose according to encoded information. This cannot be a chance occurrence apart from conscious choice. Effort to move upstream in nature requires effort. To have a stream at all requires governance. Who is the governor? We are above what science says is our source--Earth. How is this possible?

Where is your evidence refuting my argument. There is none apart from bias, fixed mindset, incredulity and misdirection. Please provide the science behind your arguments against my simple facts. Don't just say it can't be true. Back it up with some evidence.


Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Astyanax
 


Seconded. This is nothing more than the exact same sort of "BUT LOOK AT HOW COMPLICATED IT IS!" claptrap that has been going on from the creationist side from time immemorial.

Please, provide a reason why complexity necessitates a creator.

To further hammer home how ridiculous your assertion is, I'm just going to borrow an example from PZ Meyers

This wall was created:



This wall arose naturally:



Clearly the natural wall is far more complex.


To go even further, I'll point out an example of something whose simplicity is the key to us recognize its origins with a creator:




posted on Mar, 25 2011 @ 11:08 PM
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Originally posted by sirnex

Originally posted by SuperiorEd


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Infinite regression is never proof of God. Just saying...


It is possible you are not understanding my argument. Entropy is the universe going from more order to less. Falling apart if you will. All of nature and substance flows away. Entropy permeates all aspects of human existence. That is, except for consciousness. Consciousness reverses entropy and organizes substance into purpose. Nothing to something can only happen with possibility and choice. It is that simple. 'We', the human species, are our best evidence of a Creator. Either we happened by a nature defying accident, or thought created us and is above nature. Either way, conscious choice is the only thing that defies entropy in nature. No exceptions to increasing entropy have ever been show by science. For science, this one impossible singularity event of "evolution" is taken strictly on faith and cannot be demonstrated without mental gymnastics and absurd theories that are not based in reality. Show me one example to contradict what I have said. Give me your science.

edit on 25-3-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 26 2011 @ 01:44 AM
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reply to post by SuperiorEd
 


Entropy is the universe going from more order to less. Falling apart if you will. All of nature and substance flows away.

Unscientifically stated, but comprehensible nevertheless.


Entropy permeates all aspects of human existence.

Entropy permeates the universe.


That is, except for consciousness.

Really? Is consciousness itself not subject to entropy?


Consciousness reverses entropy

What? That’s just silly.

All consciousness can do (through the agency of matter under its control) is transport entropy from place to place. Which is probably what you mean when you say consciousness


organizes substance into purpose.

This is literally a meaningless statement, but I assume you mean simply that consciousness is telic, that it organizes substances to serve a prescribed purpose. We have now lapsed from physics terminology (‘entropy’) to philosophical jargon (‘substance’), but that’s okay, let’s pretend you still understand what the hell you’re talking about. How does it follow, from what you have said above, that


Nothing to something can only happen with possibility and choice.

Again, the statement is so confused one has to guess at its meaning. Obviously none of the foregoing has anything to tell us about 'nothing to something'; it is a statement about disorder turning into order. You are trying to tell us that in the universe, order can only emerge from disorder through the agency of consciousness. Is that right, or are you trying to say something else whose meaning you have thus far entirely failed to convey?

If your claim is that only consciousness can bring order out disorder, you are spectacularly wrong. Crystals – beautifully ordered geometrical arrangements of matter, such as snowflakes and diamonds – arise out of disordered ions floating about in liquids under the action of essentially random forces. In another thread, I supplied many more examples of complex order arising spontaneously out of disorder (or less order) without the intervention of consciousness; you did not address any of these examples, just made some wittering noises about springs flowing from sources. Unless you can do better than this, your statements so far cannot be accepted as true, and your continued insistence on them is both senseless and illegitimate.

However, I have long since ceased to expect rationality from creationists, so let us move on...


'We', the human species, are our best evidence of a Creator.

And (by your argument) if we did not exist it would be chimps. Or dolphins. Or rats, or whichever organic species was next most intelligent. And if conscious species did not exist, then the best evidence of a creator would be the existence of living species, since they would represent the highest-ordered arrangement of matter to exist. And if life did not exist, the best evidence of a creator would be – crystals? molecules? The ordered arrangement of protons, neutrons and electrons in an atom? Symmetry in nature?

You are claiming nothing more than that the evidence for a creator is creation itself. That is a very old argument; the Scottish philosopher David Hume debunked it around the time the American Constitution was being written. He used precisely the same arguments that I have used above. If you wish to save your argument, you must provide an answer to Hume – and me. Until then you have no right to claim that


conscious choice is the only thing that defies entropy in nature.


edit on 26/3/11 by Astyanax because: this is getting bloody tiresome.



posted on Mar, 26 2011 @ 08:18 AM
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All other life on this planet occupies a domain that is fixed. Birds have the air, fish the sea. Humans exceed any domain, therefore we have moved beyond the limitations of the domain of Earth. Purpose is not fixed for the conscious observer who possesses reason and logic (knowledge of good and evil). Entropy acts on all substance and the material world fades. Entropy does not act on the mind, which is capable of moving substance to purpose. There are no examples to be found where substance acts with purpose apart from consciousness.

Start with Hume and empiricism, then read Hobbs. You are trying to defend a blind man's description of fire. So am I. We need to look at the most probable answer. We are greater than anything around us in an environment that is in decay and constant transition.

"Whatever we imagine is finite. Therefore there is no idea or conception of anything we call infinite. No man can have in his mind an image of infinite magnitude, nor conceive infinite swiftness, infinite time, or infinite force, or infinite power … And therefore the name of God is used, not to make us conceive him (for he is incomprehensible, and his greatness and power are inconceivable), but that we may honour him. Also because whatsoever … we conceive has been perceived first by sense, either all at once or by parts, a man can have no thought representing anything not subject to sense…" (Hobbes, Leviathan, 3.12)

Crystals

Crystals are likened to humans in that we both have lattice structures. Crystals are devoid of purpose apart from their domain of existence. Animals are the same. Humans, not so much. We are clearly different in that we have moved beyond by choice and potential. Likewise, the only way a crystal can be useful apart from its domain is if a conscious observer makes it so.


Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by SuperiorEd
 


Entropy is the universe going from more order to less. Falling apart if you will. All of nature and substance flows away.

Unscientifically stated, but comprehensible nevertheless.


Entropy permeates all aspects of human existence.

Entropy permeates the universe.


That is, except for consciousness.

Really? Is consciousness itself not subject to entropy?


Consciousness reverses entropy

What? That’s just silly.

All consciousness can do (through the agency of matter under its control) is transport entropy from place to place. Which is probably what you mean when you say consciousness


organizes substance into purpose.

This is literally a meaningless statement, but I assume you mean simply that consciousness is telic, that it organizes substances to serve a prescribed purpose. We have now lapsed from physics terminology (‘entropy’) to philosophical jargon (‘substance’), but that’s okay, let’s pretend you still understand what the hell you’re talking about. How does it follow, from what you have said above, that


Nothing to something can only happen with possibility and choice.

Again, the statement is so confused one has to guess at its meaning. Obviously none of the foregoing has anything to tell us about 'nothing to something'; it is a statement about disorder turning into order. You are trying to tell us that in the universe, order can only emerge from disorder through the agency of consciousness. Is that right, or are you trying to say something else whose meaning you have thus far entirely failed to convey?

If your claim is that only consciousness can bring order out disorder, you are spectacularly wrong. Crystals – beautifully ordered geometrical arrangements of matter, such as snowflakes and diamonds – arise out of disordered ions floating about in liquids under the action of essentially random forces. In another thread, I supplied many more examples of complex order arising spontaneously out of disorder (or less order) without the intervention of consciousness; you did not address any of these examples, just made some wittering noises about springs flowing from sources. Unless you can do better than this, your statements so far cannot be accepted as true, and your continued insistence on them is both senseless and illegitimate.

However, I have long since ceased to expect rationality from creationists, so let us move on...


'We', the human species, are our best evidence of a Creator.

And (by your argument) if we did not exist it would be chimps. Or dolphins. Or rats, or whichever organic species was next most intelligent. And if conscious species did not exist, then the best evidence of a creator would be the existence of living species, since they would represent the highest-ordered arrangement of matter to exist. And if life did not exist, the best evidence of a creator would be – crystals? molecules? The ordered arrangement of protons, neutrons and electrons in an atom? Symmetry in nature?

You are claiming nothing more than that the evidence for a creator is creation itself. That is a very old argument; the Scottish philosopher David Hume debunked it around the time the American Constitution was being written. He used precisely the same arguments that I have used above. If you wish to save your argument, you must provide an answer to Hume – and me. Until then you have no right to claim that


conscious choice is the only thing that defies entropy in nature.


edit on 26/3/11 by Astyanax because: this is getting bloody tiresome.
edit on 26-3-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 26 2011 @ 08:42 AM
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How about some physics to back me up?

Genesis 1 - Fiat Lux

Light is what existed before the primal darkness of chaos. God said, let there be light. Light is the first duality of physics.

John 1 - The Word (Christ-Son of God)

"In the beginning was the word." Wave is the 2nd property of the duality of light, both particle and wave. This creates the illusion of what you see around you. Light (particle) can only be carried by wave.

Hebrews 11:3 (English Standard Version)

3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by(A) the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of(B) things that are visible.

The only thing that is real is what is invisible.

Back this up with Hermes from Egypt. This is God speaking to Thrice Great Hermes (Enoch, Joseph, Moses)

"Do you understand the secrets of this vision?"
I am that Light - the Mind of God,
which exists before
the chaotic dark waters of potentiality.
My calming Word is the Son of God -
the idea of beautiful order;
the harmony of all things with all things.
Primal Mind is the parent of the Word,
just as, in your own experience,
your human mind gives birth to speech.
They cannot be divided, one from the other,
for life is the union of Mind and Word.
Now, fix your attention upon the Light,
and become One with it."

Buddha

We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with an impure mind
And trouble will follow you
As the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart.
We are what we think.

What you see is illusion that can be explained by physics and is there in the Bible. Look anywhere else, you will see the same. Read the Zen/Tao and you see the same. Read Confucius, the same. The central truth of a creator permeates all areas of the world and nature. Even the Hindus know that the Avatar is the boi-mechanical suit we wear.




Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by SuperiorEd
 


Entropy is the universe going from more order to less. Falling apart if you will. All of nature and substance flows away.

Unscientifically stated, but comprehensible nevertheless.


Entropy permeates all aspects of human existence.

Entropy permeates the universe.


That is, except for consciousness.

Really? Is consciousness itself not subject to entropy?


Consciousness reverses entropy

What? That’s just silly.

All consciousness can do (through the agency of matter under its control) is transport entropy from place to place. Which is probably what you mean when you say consciousness


organizes substance into purpose.

This is literally a meaningless statement, but I assume you mean simply that consciousness is telic, that it organizes substances to serve a prescribed purpose. We have now lapsed from physics terminology (‘entropy’) to philosophical jargon (‘substance’), but that’s okay, let’s pretend you still understand what the hell you’re talking about. How does it follow, from what you have said above, that


Nothing to something can only happen with possibility and choice.

Again, the statement is so confused one has to guess at its meaning. Obviously none of the foregoing has anything to tell us about 'nothing to something'; it is a statement about disorder turning into order. You are trying to tell us that in the universe, order can only emerge from disorder through the agency of consciousness. Is that right, or are you trying to say something else whose meaning you have thus far entirely failed to convey?

If your claim is that only consciousness can bring order out disorder, you are spectacularly wrong. Crystals – beautifully ordered geometrical arrangements of matter, such as snowflakes and diamonds – arise out of disordered ions floating about in liquids under the action of essentially random forces. In another thread, I supplied many more examples of complex order arising spontaneously out of disorder (or less order) without the intervention of consciousness; you did not address any of these examples, just made some wittering noises about springs flowing from sources. Unless you can do better than this, your statements so far cannot be accepted as true, and your continued insistence on them is both senseless and illegitimate.

However, I have long since ceased to expect rationality from creationists, so let us move on...


'We', the human species, are our best evidence of a Creator.

And (by your argument) if we did not exist it would be chimps. Or dolphins. Or rats, or whichever organic species was next most intelligent. And if conscious species did not exist, then the best evidence of a creator would be the existence of living species, since they would represent the highest-ordered arrangement of matter to exist. And if life did not exist, the best evidence of a creator would be – crystals? molecules? The ordered arrangement of protons, neutrons and electrons in an atom? Symmetry in nature?

You are claiming nothing more than that the evidence for a creator is creation itself. That is a very old argument; the Scottish philosopher David Hume debunked it around the time the American Constitution was being written. He used precisely the same arguments that I have used above. If you wish to save your argument, you must provide an answer to Hume – and me. Until then you have no right to claim that


conscious choice is the only thing that defies entropy in nature.


edit on 26/3/11 by Astyanax because: this is getting bloody tiresome.
edit on 26-3-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 26 2011 @ 08:59 AM
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What I said above gives a new light to salvation. The 'Light" is God, brought to our attention by the Word (Christ). We believe in the light through the Word (Christ). Salvation is escaping the decay of the material world through Christ. No man comes to the father but by Christ (Word-Visible wave). Belief is faith in what is unseen (Consciousness), the only thing that really exists. Consciousness is unlimited potentiality, but it can only be used by the observer that obeys the laws of the universe. This is our education. Earth is a womb and the body is the placenta. The only metaphor we can understand.

The Bible is not the Word of God, Christ is. Point out the flaws in the Bible all you want. It is only the messenger of the true word of God. It is the imperfect image, just like us. A mirror can only reflect something else.

1 Corinthians 13:12-13

Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

The point of it all is LOVE.



edit on 26-3-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 26 2011 @ 09:35 AM
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reply to post by SuperiorEd
 


Nothing you posted could be considered scientific evidence of god's existence...you are SPECULATING! I mean, your argument is that just because humans developed the computer game "The Sims", we have to be created by a deity. That's lunatic...

Also, I hope you realize the bible isn't proof of god's existence. It's proof of what people believed 2000 odd years ago, nothing more. They also believed shrimp to be an abomination of dod, or that snakes can talk...go figure
edit on 26-3-2011 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 26 2011 @ 09:54 AM
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Open your mind. Most of the human experience permeates this message of creation and nature. Laws that govern our universe are very similar to laws that govern information management in a computer system. We are merely reflecting God in our own creations. Energy, formed into light and wave, both particle and wave, create a computer display. From the energy coming from the plug to the output on the virtual 3D environment projected from an illusion of 2D, we create the same way science theorizes about reality. This is no accident. The latest theory of reality is that we live in a holographic universe.

Aside from this, read the rest of the posts behind. Light and wave are the duality everything is made from. You call this an accident that the Bible had it right from the opening paragraph. Hardly.

Israel is surrounded by enemies, just as the Bible says. Israel is the center of the world's attention, just as the Bible states. The Bible draws the past into the future so we can witness it as it passes by. I hardly call this an accident. You scoff at miracles without realizing that anything is possible in an illusion of energy and information. It's a simple matter of changing the rules temporarily. I would assume God can bend his own rules that govern the universe with no problem. The same in a computer simulation. It's called will and choice from potentiality. Only consciousness can change entropy. Apart from consciousness, all of nature flows away from its source. We rise above the Earth and are the only exception. God is above all we know and is ultimately our source.




Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by SuperiorEd
 


Nothing you posted could be considered scientific evidence of god's existence...you are SPECULATING! I mean, your argument is that just because humans developed the computer game "The Sims", we have to be created by a deity. That's lunatic...

Also, I hope you realize the bible isn't proof of god's existence. It's proof of what people believed 2000 odd years ago, nothing more. They also believed shrimp to be an abomination of dod, or that snakes can talk...go figure
edit on 26-3-2011 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)
edit on 26-3-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 26 2011 @ 06:16 PM
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reply to post by SuperiorEd
 


First of all, your claim that animals only occupy one realm (air/water/land) while humans have mastered them all...and are therefore superior...is WRONG. Last I checked, ostriches walk, flying fish fly, there's gliding squirrels, fish that walk on land, birds that swim/dive (penguins), and the list goes on. So your claim is beyond hogwash.

That claim reminds me of the average school bully who somehow thinks he's "special" when he's really not.



formed into light and wave


You might wanna read up on "light", because you seem to separate light and waves...when in reality, all light consists of "waves" at different spectrums. But who cares about reality, right?




The latest theory of reality is that we live in a holographic universe.


The holographic principle was part of string theory when they came up with it in 1978...I wouldn't call that the "latest theory"


Also, this hasn't been tested experimentally, so it's just hypothesis. In fact, it's one of many hypotheses. It's not the same as the theory of evolution that has been proven over and over again through evidence. It's math-backed speculation at this point. And even IF the hypothesis is one day proven to be correct, it would still not prove the existence of a creator




Light and wave are the duality everything is made from


If you read up on the hypothesis, you'd know that they're saying the universe consists of information in the form of energy and matter...and not your "light and wave" hogwash. You might wanna read up on the stuff you're talking about...



Israel is the center of the world's attention, just as the Bible states.


Mhhh, funny...if you switch on the news, you'd realize it's actually Libya and Japan...but who cares about reality if it contradicts the bible, right?
And before Libya and Japan, it was Iraq, or the financial crisis in the US...Israel isn't any more important than the other world events...



It's a simple matter of changing the rules temporarily.


You can't just change the laws of gravity, or other "rules" just to make your bible fantasy world view fit. Not unless you're able to objectively prove your claims...and you fail at proving any of them




I would assume God can bend his own rules that govern the universe with no problem.


That is your BELIEF, which isn't based on objective evidence. Hell, we have ZERO objective evidence even hinting at the existence of a creator.



The same in a computer simulation.


You can't compare a computer simulation with real life like you're trying to do. We fully understand how computers work...yet there's sooooooooo many things we don't know about real life. We don't know how life started, if other dimensions exist, and a ton of other stuff.



Apart from consciousness, all of nature flows away from its source.


Do you like salmon? You might wanna look up how salmons reproduce to realize what a bunch of nonsense your claim is. Others have already posted more examples why your claim is beyond hogwash.



We rise above the Earth and are the only exception. God is above all we know and is ultimately our source.


And once again you state a BELIEF that isn't based on rationality, logic, or objective evidence. That's your right, but it doesn't make it right...quite the opposite in fact. Most of your claims are demonstrably wrong...



posted on Mar, 26 2011 @ 06:46 PM
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People Need The Holy Spirit! To Understand...God Is Love, God Is Light, God Is Life!!!


What does one gain from hearing the Holy Spirit? They gain themselves. They gain God. They gain everything that really is, everything that really matters, and with that, all the peace and comfort that they can experience.


For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten ( unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life. John 3:16





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