Judge orders use of Islamic law in Tampa lawsuit over mosque leadership

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
There is nothing to worry about and we will be fine as long as the constitution stays intact, kinda.

edit on 22-3-2011 by sheepslayer247 because: cuz I can

"There is nothing to worry about ..."

That's exactly what "they" want the sheeple to believe. Good job helping them to that end.

And BTW, who exactly is making sure the constitution stays intact?

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by 4nsicphd
If the parties to the contract had chosen "coin-toss" law to govern disputes, e.g., in the event of a dispute the winner of a coin toss prevails, would anyone be nutso enough to talk about the "slippery slope of coin-toss law? Or maybe you prefer that the law take away the right to set your own rules in a contract.

And when the first case comes up - as in the UK - where muslims claim that the way they treat a muslim female in a mosque in the U.S. should be governed by sharia and not U.S. law, what will you say?

I will say that that example is sheer idiocy. The woman did not sigh a contract saying "I want to use Sharia to define our relationship." The parties in the mosque case signed such a contract.

reply to post by centurion1211

There is nothing to worry about. As a previous post stated, they are only enforcing terms of arbitration. The Christians do it all the time in court. Once again, that was brought up by a previous post. Have you been reading your own thread? Doesn't look like it. Otherwise you would have known that. Or are you trying to continue perpetuating the fear and ignorance?

Should we begin to worry now that Christians use the same method? Those damned Christians are trying to take away my freedoms! I thought it would never happen where my country, based on freedom of religion, would be overrun by radical Judeo/Christian courts! Oh, wait. Err, too late.

This is not an attempt to force Sharia Law down our throats......that's what "they", the fascist fear-mongers, want the sheeple to think so that they can divide us even more using religious hoopla. Good job helping that one along.

And BTW, who exactly is making sure the constitution stays intact?

That my friend, is your job! It's up to each person to ensure the government is in check, as provided by the constitution. Looks like we have been asleep at the wheel on this one, huh?

Sorry, I don't have time to read through, more than likely someone has brought this up... Jews have been doing the same thing for a long time. It is a contract between two parties, that simply agree to do things in a certain way. People are freaking out like non-muslims will be forced into this, not the case.

This nation is bound by laws. Laws governed by the Constitution. There is no place in our country for sharia courts. This should be viewed as an outrage, which further brings dishonor to the founding fathers.

Originally posted by Whereweheaded
There is no place in our country for sharia courts.

True. This isn't a "Sharia Court". Read the thread. It has been explained by those who understand the law.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by Whereweheaded
There is no place in our country for sharia courts.

True. This isn't a "Sharia Court". Read the thread. It has been explained by those who understand the law.

What do you think arbitration is?

Arbitration, a form of alternative dispute resolution (ADR), is a legal technique for the resolution of disputes outside the courts, where the parties to a dispute refer it to one or more persons (the "arbitrators", "arbiters" or "arbitral tribunal"), by whose decision (the "award") they agree to be bound. It is a settlement technique in which a third party reviews the case and imposes a decision that is legally binding for both sides.[

In some cases, any type of arbitration, can include a judge as oversight. My comment, about sharia courts, was meant to include any and all forms of sharia. Deeper thought process isn't your strongest suit is it?
Further, religion, regardless of denomination, has no place in courts.

And considering that lawmakers in Florida and around the nation are increasingly discussing legislation to ban or curtail the use of Islamic law, sometimes called sharia law, in U.S. courts, would further suggest my argument has merit. Nice try...but fail~

Originally posted by Whereweheaded

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by Whereweheaded
There is no place in our country for sharia courts.

True. This isn't a "Sharia Court". Read the thread. It has been explained by those who understand the law.

What do you think arbitration is?

Arbitration, a form of alternative dispute resolution (ADR), is a legal technique for the resolution of disputes outside the courts, where the parties to a dispute refer it to one or more persons (the "arbitrators", "arbiters" or "arbitral tribunal"), by whose decision (the "award") they agree to be bound. It is a settlement technique in which a third party reviews the case and imposes a decision that is legally binding for both sides.[

In some cases, any type of arbitration, can include a judge as oversight. My comment, about sharia courts, was meant to include any and all forms of sharia. Deeper thought process isn't your strongest suit is it?
Further, religion, regardless of denomination, has no place in courts.

And considering that lawmakers in Florida and around the nation are increasingly discussing legislation to ban or curtail the use of Islamic law, sometimes called sharia law, in U.S. courts, would further suggest my argument has merit. Nice try...but fail~

You HAVE to learn how the laws of our land work. It amazes me how little people understand it, or are willing to allow bigotry to interfere. At one point in the 1930's we saw a similiar push against a people in a "free nation". The Nazi's made sure that everyone hated each other in Germany. Don't fall for the silly propaganda.

Arbitration, as your quote says, is an "alternative" resolution. If two parties agree to it contractually, then it is the law that they will be bound to.

A good analogue is corporate policy, which you "agree" to use as a form of alternative resolution for matters dealing with the "contract" of your employment. This means that, from an employment standpoint (which is civil and not criminal in nature) you are held accountable to the codes of your company. The Employee Handbook.

The only way this cannot work is if the policy contradicts law ("unconstitutional") or attempts to determine criminal outcomes (thus, Muslims cannot rape their wives, and satanists cannot sacrifice babies).

The judge has explicitely stated that all he has done is rule that since both parties agreed to their own "Ecclesiastical" by laws as a point of the signing of the contract, that they will be bound by its arbitration. He determined that the person who lost the arbitration was not accurate in his assertion that he didn't agree to such arbitration, and once the 2 million dollars was made available he decided to cry sour grapes and attempt to violate the contract.

If you really think the judge should have done different, then you are also saying that contracts in America are meaningless, and that the government will be responsible for outlining the bylaws of all religions and corporations.

Since this big kerfuffle is generally conservative in nature, i cannot imagine that you would really support such a massive expansion of government, where they take over all industries and religions in such a manner. If that is what you want, however, realize that I am firmly opposed to such a totalitarian and despotic viewpoint.

this judge should be tried for treason, and punished accordingly without leniency...and if muslims want to operate under their own laws, they should be deported back from whence they came...it is that simple...

reply to post by HenryPatrick
Is that the route we are going to go down? Should we also deport Jews, Christians, Catholics or anyone else who agrees to a legally binding contract under terms set forth by a mutually agreed upon religion? If that is your stance, then every single church in the US should be "deported"!

I usually try to stay positive on the threads, but I'm amazed by the absolute ignorance shoveled by some people. Quit watching Foxnews and look into the issues before you regurgitate bigoted, useless party mantra.

And people wonder why Democrats call Republicans and fellow conservatives racists.......that's why! It's been a while since I heard the "go back to where you came from" argument. I'll catch the next boat back to Europe...will you be there? Because the only people that "owned" this land was the Indian nation.

There's a post on another thread with a video, and the op suggest watching it first before commenting.
To me, I always believed and as we see in other countries, "where you live, you live under that law of the land regardless of your race or religion."
This judge allowing this Sharia law in a U.S. court of law, makes the whole system a farce. This is just as bad, no I should say this is worse than Obama bowing down to foreign leaders. This is opening up and starting a precedent that will haunt everyone and bite us in the ass if this is allowed to continue.
This judge must be stopped, disbarred, and kicked off the bench, he does not deserve the privilege of serving.

In western countries, where Muslim immigration is more recent, Muslim minorities have introduced Sharia family law, for use in their own disputes, with varying degrees of success

*bold emphisis added by me*

Wikipedia

"....sharia is only applicable to Muslims...."

Google

reply to post by sheepslayer247



well, it appears you can have your multi-culturalism and all that entails, and yes we should deport anybody who doesnt want to live by the law of the constitution, starting with the politicians and judges subverting it...

Originally posted by HenryPatrick
this judge should be tried for treason, and punished accordingly without leniency...and if muslims want to operate under their own laws, they should be deported back from whence they came...it is that simple...

*sigh*

How do you deny ignorance when you won't even read any of the discussion you are attempting to participate in? ATS DEMANDS better from its members.

Listen, if you want what you have in bold above to be made true, then explain to me how contract law will work in the US afterwards? If you are going to not allow to willing parties to enter a contract based on the Ecclesiastical Sharia Law, then you will have to withold the same right from all other organizations who act under contract law. That would be every single church (Christian, Jewish, whatever), corporation, and individual. All contracts entered into would then be only applicable directly under a new set of laws that would have to be created to handle such issues (along with the billions it would take to support a new, supermassive bureaucracy).

Bear in mind that when you are employed, and you sign that form that states that you have recieved a copy of the Employee Handbook and are aware of its contents, you are signing a contract with your company that your employment will be arbitrated according to the by laws of the company/corporation you work for (i.e. "company policy).

Since you want to do away with that, we will now have to allow the US Government to run our HR departments and oversee the actions of operations personnel to ensure that they are complying with the new US contract law that you are wanting to have created.

Do you not understand how the covert racism being spoon fed to some of you is wholly illogical and not based in fact?

Watch this video. If you care for your country and your very soul, watch this video and try to understand how easily you are manipulated:



I hate YouTube vids. I really do. And this is a long one. But you only need to see the first 3 minutes or so, and it is critical that every American understand how the "divide and conquer" method is being used against us today.

Originally posted by HenryPatrick
reply to post by sheepslayer247

 

well, it appears you can have your multi-culturalism and all that entails, and yes we should deport anybody who doesnt want to live by the law of the constitution, starting with the politicians and judges subverting it...

Just to point out, Ecclestiastical Sharia Law follows the US Constitution. It cannot violate the constitution and allow, say, rapes to happen. Nor can the Church of Satan sacrifice your baby. If the case returns from arbitration (which, legally, it is supposed to be arbitrated per the contract the two parties entered) it will be heard by the judge using US law, as that is the only law used in our courts.

Xenophobia is an ugly trait. Now accusing you, mind you....but whoever you are getting your info from is obviously ignoring facts to hate on Islam.

OK, since no one else is posting this....i went to the trouble to find an ATS member who made a thread about it (ModernAcademia, just to be nice.

Source

A Florida judge is defending his controversial decision to apply Islamic law instead of state or federal statutes in determining whether an arbitration award was correct, the St. Petersburg Times reports.

The case in question involves former trustees of a local Tampa mosque, the Islamic Education Center of Tampa, who are suing because they claim they were unfairly removed as trustees.

Hillsborough Circuit Judge Richard Nielsen said that the two parties can seek guidance from the Koran to resolve their dispute, according to MyFoxOrlando.com.

Nielsen said that based on testimony, "under ecclesiastical law," and pursuant to the Koran, "Islamic brothers should attempt to resolve a dispute among themselves."

"If Islamic brothers are unable to do so, they can agree to present the dispute to the greater community of Islamic brothers within the mosque or the Muslim community for resolution," he said.

The two parties reportedly agreed ahead of time to use an imam and Islamic Law to resolve any potential differences through arbitration.

So, in short, this is what happened:

Brothers had an agreement relating to their land where the mosque is. The US Gov decides to build a road through part of it and gives them 2 million. Now there is all of a sudden a big dispute over how that money is divided, so they go into the arbitration process per the contract that they both entered into.

Then, the case is decided using the method that they both agreed to (it is a contract, and weird methods are used all the time in contracts). But the one that lost has sour grapes, and goes to the US court and smears his religion by claiming that "Sharia Law" should not be allowed as a legally binding process.

Problem is, when the Mosque filed as a religious non profit, they had to submit their bylaws (which dictated the drafting of this contract) to the US gov to make sure it complies with the regulations. One of those is that they have a set of dispute resolution by laws that are compliant with the US constitution. This is not Sharia law, it is "Ecclesiastical Muslim Law", and all religions have something similar (as well as any corporation, where they call it "company policy").

The judge decided that the loser was just being a wuss, and that the church had a process that was constitutional and approved for use as a framework for the arbitration process. Therefore, with the arbitration process being legally constitutional and supported via 200 years of contract and ecclesiastical law precedent, he told them to go back to arbitration and resolve the issue before they bring it to his court.

He also says that if they bring it back to his court, it will no longer be tried/arbitrated per the contract, but rather US law.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247

In western countries, where Muslim immigration is more recent, Muslim minorities have introduced Sharia family law, for use in their own disputes, with varying degrees of success

*bold emphisis added by me*

Wikipedia

"....sharia is only applicable to Muslims...."

Google

Well that's being really naive. So lets just not look at the car coming down the highway as we cross over to the other side, maybe we won't get run over. Yeah right!
Or how about leaving our door wide open tonight, even though we live in one of the highest area for crime, maybe nobody will bother us, come on man, this is how it starts. People got to stop being ostriches, and stop burying their heads in the sand.

reply to post by hawaii50th

So it's naive now? I bring facts to the table, showing that Sharia law is only applicable to Muslims, and its naive?

So you may get hit crossing the street, or you may get robbed because you leave your door open, but unless those scary, brown-skinned Muslims convert you to Islam without you knowing, you will not have to worry about Sharia Law!

Call me naive if you want, and I will call you brainwashed! You, my friend, have an agenda. Whether you are aware of it or not. Turn off Foxnews and pick up a book. Better yet, go outside and shake hands with your Muslim neighbors. You might actually learn that there are many of them out there already, and they are no different than your Christian neighbors.

but be careful crossing the street........

reply to post by sheepslayer247

You should change your user name to sheeple, unless your really out to slay the sheep, than in that case, no your not naive, your one of them, a sneaky snake hardliner that want Sharia law in place. And your definitely not a patriotic American to accept such lunacy.
And as for that laughing emotion con you left at the end of your pathetic statement shows your true evil side, glad you showed your true side.

reply to post by hawaii50th

Ok.....A few of us have tried to bring facts to the table in an attempt to squash the silly notion that Sharia Law is overtaking America, but you refuse to even consider those facts. How can we have an intelligent debate if you are not willing to accept "truths"? In fact, I am called naive for looking at facts.

You are also so smart that you have figured out that I am "a sneaky snake hardliner that want Sharia law in place". How did you come to that wise deduction? Wasn't that a tactic that was used by Bush: "If you're not with us, then your a terrorist". So since I disagree with what you're saying, I must want Sharia in America?

Myself and others have tried to have a spirited debate over this issue, but its very clear that you are not interested in such a thing. Your mind is made-up, and things like facts will not sway you from your agenda. If my differing opinion makes me an unpatriotic American then so be it. My political or social views have nothing to do with my love for country. I refuse to blindly follow any ideology, and doing so does not make me any less American than you.

In closing, I tried to add a little humor to lighten the mood and to show the silliness of what you had said. That's why I threw that emoticon in my last post. But you think that makes me evil? Seriously....evil? OK, you got me. I am evil. My head even spins around and I eject a disgusting bile from my mouth.