Religion may become extinct in nine nations, study says

reply to post by edmc^2


You wrote:

["Right now, people are being conditioned not to feel sorry for the demise of religion"]

Or maybe they are in reality being DE-conditioned. How you guys love to go to embellishing semantic non-sense points.

Quote: [" more and more people are expressing their disgust of religion."]

SOME people are expressing disgust with SOME kinds of religion.

Quote: ["ATS alone contains a large number of people who want religion gone."]

And IMO a larger number just wanting religion to take its proper egalitarian place alongside any other group in society.

Quote: ["A huge number of young adults the world over lack morality - they see life as if there no real value."]

What you REALLY mean to say is, that they lack YOUR idea of morality.

Quote: [" Instead of educating their members, they use them for political and social campaigns."]

Contrary to what you're doing now??

Quote: ["Sad part is they failed to educate their members with regards to "SIN". Matter of fact this word, "SIN" is now a taboo."]

No, it's just considered nonsense.

Quote: ["A very small minority remains who recognized that there's such a thing as SIN and believe that those who WILLFULLY practice it will be judge accordingly"]

Good for them, and may they live in peace and happiness with their beliefs.

Quote: ["“. . . Gather yourselves together, yes, do the gathering, O nation not paling in shame. Before [the] statute gives birth to [anything], [before the] day has passed by just like chaff, before there comes upon YOU people the burning anger of Jehovah, before there comes upon YOU the day of Jehovah’s anger, seek Jehovah, all YOU meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably YOU may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger.” (Zephaniah 2:1-3)"]

I've seen many a grand finale better and more impressive than this one. If you're here to convert, you should try to understand your potential victims better.

["Right now, people are being conditioned not to feel sorry for the demise of religion"]

Or maybe they are in reality being DE-conditioned. How you guys love to go to embellishing semantic non-sense points.

--> might be right word De-conditioned but abandonement is what we see and no it's not "embellishing semantic non-sense points." but the reality. How many do you think go to church because of the word of God? (ed)


Quote: [" more and more people are expressing their disgust of religion."]

SOME people are expressing disgust with SOME kinds of religion.

--> Again the number is growing due to things done in / by religion. Tell me please name me "SOME kinds religion" that is praised worldwide? Out of the thousands name a few. (ed)

Quote: ["ATS alone contains a large number of people who want religion gone."]

And IMO a larger number just wanting religion to take its proper egalitarian place alongside any other group in society.

--> Of course that is the proper place - but not gonna happen and as it's turning out (if not already) the religious leaders themselves will not let it happen due to power and pretige it brings. Many of themare drunk from the cup of "wine of power". Year in year out - many of these leaders become political candidates themselves. So imho it's no gonna happen. (ed)

Quote: ["A huge number of young adults the world over lack morality - they see life as if there no real value."]

What you REALLY mean to say is, that they lack YOUR idea of morality.

--> No not my morality but that of Jesus Christ.

Take the Golden Rule for one:

“All things, therefore, that YOU want men to do to YOU, YOU also must likewise do to them; this, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean.” (Matthew 7:12)

Or these:

“YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; 45 that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. 46 For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? 48 YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew 5:43-48)

Many of the religious leaders back then and now failed to follow these rules. (ed)

Quote: [" Instead of educating their members, they use them for political and social campaigns."]

Contrary to what you're doing now??

---> And what is it that I'm doing now? (ed)

Quote: ["Sad part is they failed to educate their members with regards to "SIN". Matter of fact this word, "SIN" is now a taboo."]

No, it's just considered nonsense.

--> Like what I said taboo - a nonsense. Many don't believe of SIN, sad part is religious leaders themselves agree. Living together outside of marriage is the norm. (ed)

Quote: ["A very small minority remains who recognized that there's such a thing as SIN and believe that those who WILLFULLY practice it will be judge accordingly"]

Good for them, and may they live in peace and happiness with their beliefs.

--> Thank you. (ed)

Quote: ["“. . . Gather yourselves together, yes, do the gathering, O nation not paling in shame. Before [the] statute gives birth to [anything], [before the] day has passed by just like chaff, before there comes upon YOU people the burning anger of Jehovah, before there comes upon YOU the day of Jehovah’s anger, seek Jehovah, all YOU meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably YOU may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger.” (Zephaniah 2:1-3)"]

I've seen many a grand finale better and more impressive than this one. If you're here to convert, you should try to understand your potential victims better.

--> Sorry aim is not to impress nor to convert but to communicate.(ed)

But what do you think though, do you agree with the title of this thread -i.e. religion will go the way of the dodo?

thx for communicating,
edmc2

You wrote:


["--> might be right word De-conditioned but abandonement is what we see and no it's not "embellishing semantic non-sense points." but the reality. How many do you think go to church because of the word of God?"]

I related to the word 'conditioned' and considered it semantic embellishment. 'Abandonment' is a factual description of the situation, without implied 'pointed' conclusions, so I have no objections to 'abandonment'.



Quote:

["Quote: [" more and more people are expressing their disgust of religion."]

SOME people are expressing disgust with SOME kinds of religion.

--> Again the number is growing due to things done in / by religion. Tell me please name me "SOME kinds religion" that is praised worldwide? Out of the thousands name a few."]

I refer to invasive 'extremist' religion. Not any specific religion.



Quote: ["--> No not my morality but that of Jesus Christ."]

Which YOU propagate. Unless there is no 'YOU' anymore, and you're a helpless automaton repeating doctrines passively.



Quote: ["Take the Golden Rule for one:

“All things, therefore, that YOU want men to do to YOU, YOU also must likewise do to them; this, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean.” (Matthew 7:12)"]

The christianities don't have a copyright monopoly on the golden rule, as it exists in a lot of different contexts, where it's a/ is presented unconditionally (without the christian pricetag); b/ is more extensive c/ can be combined with rational, secular reasoning.



Quote:

[" Quote: [" Instead of educating their members, they use them for political and social campaigns."]

Contrary to what you're doing now??

---> And what is it that I'm doing now?"]

Conducting a social campaign with a religious aim.



Quote:
["Quote: ["Sad part is they failed to educate their members with regards to "SIN". Matter of fact this word, "SIN" is now a taboo."]

No, it's just considered nonsense.

--> Like what I said taboo - a nonsense. Many don't believe of SIN, sad part is religious leaders themselves agree. Living together outside of marriage is the norm."]

Taboo = nonsense. How did you get to that? Most non-believers simply IGNORE 'sin'-doctrine as a waste of time.



Quote: ["--> Sorry aim is not to impress nor to convert but to communicate"]

By repeatedly parrotting passages from a religious manual I consider total nonsense?; on a public debate forum with a great deal of very sceptical general criticism on the subject? And as above, quote: ["No not my morality but that of Jesus Christ"] acting as a spokes-machine for pre-recorded messages?

I can no question your motives, you know them best. But I can strongly suggest, that your impression of the general situation is far from realistic. You come across as a missionary, possibly in spite of your own intentions.



Quote: ["But what do you think though, do you agree with the title of this thread -i.e. religion will go the way of the dodo?"]

I don't know, if you have bothered to read all the thread or just popped in for a quick sermon, but 04:27 (page 1) I placed a post on this thread answering this from my perspective. The total christian active group is in my country down to 5-6 % of the total population, and there are strong reasons to suspect, that it will decline even more and stay this low. The general european situation is in the same direction, as is the former Sovjet area.

reply to post by edmc^2

For sure when that time comes - anyone who profess to be religious or who profess to be a follower of Christ or who belong to a church will have to prove his loyalty publicly.

What exactly do you mean by this statement? In what way does someone prove their religious loyalty publicly, and how would one be forced to do so?

reply to post by bogomil


So we are in agreement that membership in the mainsteam religion as a whole will continue to decline. Europe is at the forefront of this change. Soon the rest of the western world will follow.

On the other side of the world - Islam will become more extreme as it tries to control the middle east (alienating the humble). But the western world where Christendom resides will try to prevent this from happening. They know that it's just a matter of time until Islam will be in control. So the religious leaders in Christendom will try hard to influence their politcal rulers to side with them (imho) to prevent a (man-made) catastophic event.

Current events show this to be so - Iran is on the verge of becoming a nuclear power. The ruling class are the religious Mullahs intent on fulfilling their religious belief. So the conflict between Christendom (Christian nations) and Islam (Muslim nations) will intesify. And the only way to stop this conflict (imho) is for an international body to step in. Who alone has that power? As it turns out it's the U.N. world body. In the coming days/months - we will see the U.N. become a force to recon with. As it is - it's already gaining more veto power and unforeseen events and circumstances will force the nations of the world to give it more power, make it a powerful body. It will be able to inforce its will among the masses. First target - religion. Any religious group who will not abide by its rules will be put under compulsion. Violate its rules - your church/mosque will be closed.

Of course Islam will try to fight since they don't recognized human rulership but Allah. So making the U.N. powerful with the backing of powerful nations, religion as a whole will have no choice but to submit.

Imagine - no more religious services. On this the masses will not be able to do anything but to abide in the name of preserving the peace and security of the world. Besides as you said - people are now being "de-conditioned".
Morality is no longer a guiding force let alone God's moral codes. So the loss of religion is of no great importance - except for "business" - those who profited from her thoghout the milleniums.

But once that happens - the U.N world body will be able to declare at last "peace and security". But will it be true "peace and security"?

Again the prophecy: "then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape.” (1 Thessalonians 5:3)

Q: how will the "sudden destruction" come about?

Not gonna happen you think?

Still think religion will not be a target?

time will tell...

ciao,
edmc2

Originally posted by mysticnoon
reply to post by edmc^2

 

For sure when that time comes - anyone who profess to be religious or who profess to be a follower of Christ or who belong to a church will have to prove his loyalty publicly.

What exactly do you mean by this statement? In what way does someone prove their religious loyalty publicly, and how would one be forced to do so?

Simple, we have many examples of this already - in the first century the True Christians were put in the public arena by Rome. If they renounced their faith they will be pardoned and set free - to disobey means death.

Now I'm not saying that it's the same pattern - but what I'm saying is that your faith will be put into question. Time will come where probably even the mention of Jesus Christ will be unacceptable. There are many ways to challenge your faith - by laws of the land or by just fear. If you fear for your life or material belongings during that time then your faith will be tested. Who are you going to follow? Ceasar's law or God's law.

So if your faith is lacking now - when that time comes it might be too late to build it up because we always react based on what we learned and know. Like a running on a race - if you try to change course or your running style during the race, you will prolly lose the race.

Here's a passage:

“9 “Then people will deliver YOU up to tribulation and will kill YOU, and YOU will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name. 10 Then, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12 and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. 13 But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. 14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:9-14)

thx,
edmc2

reply to post by edmc^2

Now I'm not saying that it's the same pattern - but what I'm saying is that your faith will be put into question. Time will come where probably even the mention of Jesus Christ will be unacceptable. There are many ways to challenge your faith - by laws of the land or by just fear. If you fear for your life or material belongings during that time then your faith will be tested. Who are you going to follow? Ceasar's law or God's law.

I understand the concept of having one's "faith" tested, or I would say one's conviction, as I am "tested" in this way every day, but without it being a public affair where I am required to announce my loyalty to a specific belief system.

You said a believer would have to "prove his loyalty publicly", and I was asking you to be specific. I think we are well beyond the roman arena phase, so something a bit more relevant to this day and age would be appropriate.

reply to post by edmc^2


Thanks for your answer.

I think, I must start with saying, that I do NOT consider you a dishonest person, as I believe, that you refer to what you consider 'truth' (from your own background) as well as you can.

I see our disagreements BASICALLY more as an expression of our personal 'psyches', our mindsets, where we already before we produce 'answers' choose a fundament/frame/reference/doctrine/methodology/perspective to start from.

So I will try to reprociate your personal honesty, which is based on your terms (your background), with my own. I'm not sure I can match your diplomacy, but then cut away my semantic excesses as an expression of my grumpy character.

From my perspective you present a model, a world-view, which is based on information, you basically have acquired through a book. In some cases this book is allegedly supported by individual experiences such as 'signs and wonders' (interpretated as 'signs and wonders' by pro-book adherents) and/or some individual 'gut'-feelings (I'm not on principle negative to 'gut'-feelings).

What emerges looks to me as something non-observable, non-testable, non-provable, mostly concerning trans-mundane phenomena. This is OK with me, as long as it's kept as as an individual/subjective thing, which you (from my liberal position) have all the right in the world to have.

The problems arise, when you (and similar religious extremists) start to postulate that your personal version of trans-mundanity (specific theistic models) in some way has an element of 'objectivity' in it, and can be applied to mundane affairs. Because of your own mindset and its positions, you probably don't understand, that other mindsets scorn such claims.

I don't know, if you belong to that branch of christianity, which consider liberalism, science/logic, observation/pragmatism (the group I belong to to a high degree) as 'helpless' without divine parental guidance, and 'immoral' without religious ethics (you have been going in the last direction in your posts). In other words 'lost' according to your norms.

Correspondingly I don't know, if you understand, when 'we', .....your opponents..... consequently have the opinion, that religious extremists are unable to/afraid of relating personally to existence, that the 'divine parenting' is an expression of a psyche immobilized at the age of 6-7 years, that antí-logic/rational attitudes are an expression of mental laziness, brainwashing or just plain stupidity, and the need for missioning as a kind of sociopathy.

In the greater context of your last post to my, these two perspectives presented just above, give two different answers.

You believe, you're the cure for human existential illness.

I believe, YOU are the illness, and using you as cure would be like putting gasolin on a fire.

There's not much communication possible from these positions, but as my 'side' numerically is getting the upper hand, your 'side' has to adjust to this situation.

This post is not about right/wrong or truth/not-truth. It's only meant to support the view/social perspective, that mankind is loosing interest in religion, because religion often is based on bronze-age information and bronze-age values. It's like football supporters have their 'colours' and go whoopie in front of the TV together with a six-pack or three. There's nothing more to it, and your your outdated and irrational basis can't compete with a TV, the passive element of entertaining in it, the relative safety of liberal society and the individual freedom (including the freedom to be dumb in your own way).

If you want to go into the 'deep end', that's another thing. I can meet you there, but it's a lengthy and difficult process, because we'll eventually end with epistemological questions, on a mutually agreed-on communication platform, you may find outside your doctrinal limits.

We may even be able to keep such a 'a deep end' ON-topic, as being one perspective on 'the decline of religion'.

Until then, I will respond to what I consider rigid doctrinalism with my somewhat irreverent 'urching' style.

But at least rest assured. The true liberal doesn't want to 'kill' religion through power maneuvers. If religion dies, it should be because of lack of interest.

reply to post by mysticnoon


I got what you mean -

First, the bases for what I said:

“Then people will deliver YOU up to tribulation and will kill YOU, and YOU will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name.” (Matthew 24:9)

“Bear in mind the word I said to YOU, A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will persecute YOU also; if they have observed my word, they will observe YOURS also.” (John 15:20)
“In fact, all those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted.” (2 Timothy 3:12)

“For it seems to me that God has put us the apostles last on exhibition as men appointed to death, because we have become a theatrical spectacle to the world, and to angels, and to men.” (1 Corinthians 4:9)

In other words true followers of Jesus will BE persecuted. In fact it’s been happening for a while now and it’s on the increase.

Now I don’t know about your faith but we’ve experience this persecution in one form or another. We’ve catalogued and recorded the events, a lot of them very public. They are in museums and libraries; you can read them yourself.

For example, during the First World War – many faithful servants of God who refused to bear arms to kill their fellowman were sent to concentration camps and prisons. Many lost their homes and properties and were beaten up. Some died. After the war instead of being set free they were sent to prison again because they refused to participate in political rallies promulgated by the new government. Then it happened again in WWII – this time, faithful servants of God in Germany were sent to concentration camps for their refusal to compromise their faith. These men and women – young and old can be set free by just signing a release form. Instead majority chose to remain faithful. It also happened in the United States – many lost their jobs and were publicly ostracized for their refusal to participate in nationalistic movements and for not taking up arms. Children were kicked out of schools for not saluting the flags of their country. The choice was either to violate ones God trained conscience or to obey God. Many chose to obey God rather than men.

Today in the so called enlightened civilized lands, many faithful Christians are being subjected to bans and persecutions, ridicules and unable to meet together or talked with their fellowman about the Bible. Sad part is it will continue to grow until it becomes a worldwide issue. And when that happens – yours and my faith will be tested. So question is: what would you do if they close the door of your church? What would you do if even carrying a Bible is a violation of the law? What would you do if even the mention of Jesus or God’s name is considered a violation of the law? Will you talk to your friends or your relatives about Jesus? Will you have the courage to do so? Or will you keep quite? Will you obey man or God? It will come in many forms, some we can’t even imagine but it will happen for there’s an enemy behind it (and I believe you know whom I’m talking about). Sad part is, many of the so called Christian nations – instigated by religious leaders were responsible for much of the persecutions. What an irony.

So what do you think, possible?

Not gonna happen some may say but WWI WWII happened in spite skepticism. Think about it, these two great wars happened or started by/in the so called Christian Nations. Unforeseen circumstances beyond man’s control are some of the factors that made it possible to happen. So for religion to become the main target doesn’t take that much analysis as the signs/markers are already visible.

But for it to disappear (pure worship that is) – it will take an act of God.

And finally these words by Jesus will truly be put to the test:

“For whoever becomes ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of man will also be ashamed of him when he arrives in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.” (Mark 8:38)

Will you renounced him when confronted or follow his commands faithfully?

Now is the time to make the decision for when it comes it might be too late.

Here are sites showing the persecutions of Christians:

Here

Here

Happening right now

reply to post by edmc^2


Thank you for your thoughtful and thorough answer.

I see what you are saying, and I agree that persecution of religious believers is happening even today. However, it is not confined to Christianity, and extends even to private mystical convictions.

In fact, the greatest persecution against my own beliefs has come from fundamental Christians, and I am not talking about simply being harassed by their preaching. In my case, I was targeted to such an extent that it almost cost me my livelihood (and after 10 years I am still struggling to recover financially from the onslaught), and even my own life came under threat because of my personal beliefs.

The problem, as I see it, doesn't lay in any individual religious belief, but rather in the attitude that one person is superior to another based on the belief they hold. It is the conviction that one's belief is the Truth and another's belief is a lie. This is an absolutist position, and it will always invite conflict and unfortunate consequences as long as such a position receives support from the masses.

Thanks for your answer.

I think, I must start with saying, that I do NOT consider you a dishonest person, as I believe, that you refer to what you consider 'truth' (from your own background) as well as you can.

Thanks, hopefully I won't make a mistake but since noone is perfect my apologies if I misstate something.

I see our disagreements BASICALLY more as an expression of our personal 'psyches', our mindsets, where we already before we produce 'answers' choose a fundament/frame/reference/doctrine/methodology/perspective to start from.

There's truth that what you're saying as our thinking and level of understanding of things are greatly influenced by our experience and backgrounds in life. But one thing I do know though, whatever our background or knowledge level is, truth will always remain the same as there's only one kind of truth.

So I will try to reprociate your personal honesty, which is based on your terms (your background), with my own. I'm not sure I can match your diplomacy, but then cut away my semantic excesses as an expression of my grumpy character.

Appreciate that! Now on with the conversation...

You said:

From my perspective you present a model, a world-view, which is based on information, you basically have acquired through a book. In some cases this book is allegedly supported by individual experiences such as 'signs and wonders' (interpretated as 'signs and wonders' by pro-book adherents) and/or some individual 'gut'-feelings (I'm not on principle negative to 'gut'-feelings).

Of course I can present a made up world-view but it's not gonna matter for it's not based on reality. But as you can see the book that I'm using as an authority on such matter as world events is unmatched and always proven to be true. It is as old as (modern) man about 6000 years, it's the only book in existence that contain an accurate history of man. It's prophecies are impeccable and unmatched by any other book. In fact the things that we are seeing and witnessing today worldwide in the 21st century points to it's authenticity. These "signs and wonders" that you talked about points to the fact that although penned by men (40 to be exact) the words written therein are of divine origin. So I'm very confident that the rest of the prophetic events, these "signs and wonders" that are still to come will absolutely 100% going to be fulfilled. And it's not because of "gut-feeling" but because as the scripture says:

“. . .All Scripture is inspired of God . . .” (2 Timothy 3:16)

side note:
Hundred even 50 years ago - a topic like this 'demise of world's religion' is even unthinkable, yet the scriptures predicted it thousand years in advance.

What emerges looks to me as something non-observable, non-testable, non-provable, mostly concerning trans-mundane phenomena. This is OK with me, as long as it's kept as as an individual/subjective thing, which you (from my liberal position) have all the right in the world to have.

On the contrary - they are observable, verifiable phenomena. But since our present knowledge and technology are still limited then we interpret these "signs and wonders" as "phenomena" or in other words "miracles". Fact is there are things that are considered "miracles or phenomena" hundred years ago are now considered facts of life. I can name several but you do some research. ATS alone has some amazing stuff that can be considered "phenomena" in biblical terms.

Side note:
If man can clone a living thing - can a virgin birth be considered a miracle? Will cloning be interpreted as a "phenomena" a "miracle" to primitive people 100 years ago? If so what about the other "phenomenons" in the scriptures - are they "miracles" too? What do you think?

The problems arise, when you (and similar religious extremists) start to postulate that your personal version of trans-mundanity (specific theistic models) in some way has an element of 'objectivity' in it, and can be applied to mundane affairs.

Just because it's contents are supernatural in nature it is considered a religious extremism. Sorry but I don't see it that way, I see it as reality, fact is life itself - to me is of supernatural origin - a miracle if you may.

Because of your own mindset and its positions, you probably don't understand, that other mindsets scorn such claims.

Funny thing is that was said about Columbus, Galileo and other great men but in the end they were proven right. Jesus was considered a heretic back in his time, yet his teachings are unmatched! Able to transform the world without his bodily presence. Now I don't consider myself as someone for I'm noone but since my belief system is founded on the unchanging word of God, where Jesus is at the helm - then I consider it a badge of honor to be scorned at for such belief/faith.

I don't know, if you belong to that branch of christianity, which consider liberalism, science/logic, observation/pragmatism (the group I belong to to a high degree) as 'helpless' without divine parental guidance, and 'immoral' without religious ethics (you have been going in the last direction in your posts). In other words 'lost' according to your norms.

Here's my take on "liberalism": “to work at good, to be rich in fine works, to be liberal, ready to share,” (1 Timothy 6:18)

Science/Logic/Observation - they are wonderful tools for enriching our knowledge of life, the world and the universe.

PRAGMATISM: Estimates the true worth of our convictions solely by their practical bearing on human interests, such as in reshaping education, morals, and politics. It does not consider that truth has any value in itself.

Since a pragmatist do not believe that absolute truth is not attainable then this is where I part ways - for Jesus himself said that he is "the truth" “and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free.”” (John 8:32)

As for morality amongst the "lost" - I don't pass judgment, in fact there are non-believers or those who you call "lost" who are more righteous than those who profess to be Christians. If you go back to what I said - there are religious leaders who don't even consider sin a sin per the scriptures. Since they know what the scriptures say they already judge themselves for they make the word of God invalid and make a mockery of Jesus' sacrifice. Responsible for alienating the many.

Correspondingly I don't know, if you understand, when 'we', .....your opponents..... consequently have the opinion, that religious extremists are unable to/afraid of relating personally to existence, that the 'divine parenting' is an expression of a psyche immobilized at the age of 6-7 years, that antí-logic/rational attitudes are an expression of mental laziness, brainwashing or just plain stupidity, and the need for missioning as a kind of sociopathy.

I understand your point. I've seen it where religious intolerance are taught at a young age. Sad part, birth place plays a big role in shaping someone's belief system. For example, if one is born in the middle east, naturally one will be raised and grow up with an Islamic point of view. On the other hand if one is born in the western world, one is automatically brought up as a "Christian" (very true about 50 or more years ago). But today in the west, due to the loss of credibility religious belief is no longer the norm. And like what i said atheism is on the rise. It is this "antí-logic/rational attitudes" that makes people like you IMHO see it as "expression of mental laziness, brainwashing or just plain stupidity". Which I don't fault you - in fact I was an object one time of condemnation by a so called "Christian". I was told that I will go to hell because I don't subscribed to their form of belief, i.e. Hell, cross, immortality of the soul - etc. Since I don't believed them it didn't bug me.

As for "the need for missioning as a kind of sociopathy." this is where I part ways. Matter of fact, this is the MAIN reason why Jesus started Christianity (not Christendom). Jesus himself was a missionary, the apostles as well as the entire first century Christians were all missionaries. They talked to people about what they learned and know - they shared their faith to all.

This is the command that was given to ALL Christians but was forgotten and discarded when Christianity eventually got corrupted.

note:
“. . .And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”” (Matthew 28:18-20)

Instead of individual Christians doing their job - the clergy class took that responsibility. The result - they elevated themselves above the "laity". Then bishops arose among them finally the pope took the position of ultimate authority on earth - infallible. History shows that the bishops and popes have so much power that they are able to dictate who will be the king. Unscriptural doctrines emerged borrowed from Babylonish teachings and philosophies. Other religions broke off then expanded on the unscritural teachings. Result - confusion.

But Jesus said that the "good news of his kingdom" must be preached but who will do it? Christendom? They failed miserably as history shows.

So, "missioning" IS NOT "a kind of sociopathy" in my book but a duty and a privileged.

btw - is open-mindedness in a liberal society the norm? If so then "missioning" should not be A threat, correct?

In the greater context of your last post to my, these two perspectives presented just above, give two different answers. You believe, you're the cure for human existential illness. I believe, YOU are the illness, and using you as cure would be like putting gasolin on a fire.

Nope - sorry but you got it wrong. It's NOT ME or people like ME but "God's Kingdom" or in a vernacular words - God's government under the ruler-ship of Christ is THE ONLY "cure for human existential illness". I'm just but a simple messenger.

There's not much communication possible from these positions, but as my 'side' numerically is getting the upper hand, your 'side' has to adjust to this situation.

Again - it doesn't surprised me for this is what we've been "watching" for as a marker of the last days of the system man. And of course we will adjust to it to further the advancement of the "good news" but will not compromised.

This post is not about right/wrong or truth/not-truth. It's only meant to support the view/social perspective, that mankind is loosing interest in religion, because religion often is based on bronze-age information and bronze-age values. It's like football supporters have their 'colours' and go whoopie in front of the TV together with a six-pack or three. There's nothing more to it, and your your outdated and irrational basis can't compete with a TV, the passive element of entertaining in it, the relative safety of liberal society and the individual freedom (including the freedom to be dumb in your own way).

That I agree - like what i said, religion as whole lost it's credibility as a force for good thus it's to be expected that many will abandon it. But as for 'outdated and irrational basis", meaning the scriptures then it's not outdated since man's problems are as old as the scriptures itself. Man dies, get sick, get depressed, needs hope that only the Bible can provide. It is the reason why it exist!

And contrary to what you said ("the freedom to be dumb in your own way") the scriptures say: “Wisdom is the prime thing. Acquire wisdom; and with all that you acquire, acquire understanding.” (Proverbs 4:7)

“My son, if you will receive my sayings and treasure up my own commandments with yourself, 2 so as to pay attention to wisdom with your ear, that you may incline your heart to discernment;” (Proverbs 2:1-2)

These are some the words that guides me.

If you want to go into the 'deep end', that's another thing. I can meet you there, but it's a lengthy and difficult process, because we'll eventually end with epistemological questions, on a mutually agreed-on communication platform, you may find outside your doctrinal limits.

We may even be able to keep such a 'a deep end' ON-topic, as being one perspective on 'the decline of religion'.

"deep end"? no idea what you mean.

Until then, I will respond to what I consider rigid doctrinalism with my somewhat irreverent 'urching' style.

But at least rest assured. The true liberal doesn't want to 'kill' religion through power maneuvers. If religion dies, it should be because of lack of interest.

man made religion will end - that is for sure but Pure Worship of the True God (YHWH/Jehovah)- The true Way of Life will remain forever.

“. . .And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite; 45 forasmuch as you beheld that out of the mountain a stone was cut not by hands, and [that] it crushed the iron, the copper, the molded clay, the silver and the gold. The grand God himself has made known to the king what is to occur after this. And the dream is reliable, and the interpretation of it is trustworthy.”” (Daniel 2:44-45)


thx,
edmc2

People are becoming more educated, and there is no longer such a great need to worship gods that are not here...

Needs to happen immediately

Originally posted by mysticnoon
reply to post by edmc^2

 

Thank you for your thoughtful and thorough answer.

I see what you are saying, and I agree that persecution of religious believers is happening even today. However, it is not confined to Christianity, and extends even to private mystical convictions.

In fact, the greatest persecution against my own beliefs has come from fundamental Christians, and I am not talking about simply being harassed by their preaching. In my case, I was targeted to such an extent that it almost cost me my livelihood (and after 10 years I am still struggling to recover financially from the onslaught), and even my own life came under threat because of my personal beliefs.

I'm sorry that happened to you and it's also the reason why Christianity gets a bad rap. Because of intolerance of others point of view, things like these happen. But like what said - many of my brothers and sisters were victims of such intolerance throughout the years by so called Christians. In fact we are not considered Christians by most mainstream religions - we are considered as cults. So I can understand your situation.

The problem, as I see it, doesn't lay in any individual religious belief, but rather in the attitude that one person is superior to another based on the belief they hold. It is the conviction that one's belief is the Truth and another's belief is a lie. This is an absolutist position, and it will always invite conflict and unfortunate consequences as long as such a position receives support from the masses.

Agree - and most of the time superiority beclouds truth, and since we are all imperfect it gets magnified to the point that it becomes blind faith, unreasonable faith.

The true message gets taken over especially in heated debates. Message like these:

“make my joy full in that YOU are of the same mind and have the same love, being joined together in soul, holding the one thought in mind, 3 doing nothing out of contentiousness or out of egotism, but with lowliness of mind considering that the others are superior to YOU, 4 keeping an eye, not in personal interest upon just YOUR own matters, but also in personal interest upon those of the others.” (Philippians 2:2-4)

And sometimes we are guilty of forgetting it. So we must always be on guard.

And like what you said - "it will always invite conflict and unfortunate consequences as long as such a position receives support from the masses." Such herd mentality coupled by a sense of superiority always end up in disaster. This is also one of the reason imho why support of religion as a whole will decline.

But I do hope that I don't appear superior to anyone - if i did, my sincere apologies.

Lastly a message:

“And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. 11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.” (Psalm 37:10-11)


edmc2

Originally posted by ButterCookie
People are becoming more educated, and there is no longer such a great need to worship gods that are not here...

Needs to happen immediately

Careful what you wished for ... will happen but not as what you expect it to be.

BTW - why are you in such a hurry?

thx,
edmc2

reply to post by edmc^2

The true message gets taken over especially in heated debates. Message like these:

“make my joy full in that YOU are of the same mind and have the same love, being joined together in soul, holding the one thought in mind, 3 doing nothing out of contentiousness or out of egotism, but with lowliness of mind considering that the others are superior to YOU, 4 keeping an eye, not in personal interest upon just YOUR own matters, but also in personal interest upon those of the others.” (Philippians 2:2-4)

This is the first time in a lifetime of debates with Christians, including 15 years in online forums, that I have encountered any Christian who has referred to this quote. In fact, I was unaware it existed in the Bible.

It does make me wonder, though, why is this quote so avidly avoided?

Originally posted by mysticnoon
reply to post by edmc^2

 

The true message gets taken over especially in heated debates. Message like these:

“make my joy full in that YOU are of the same mind and have the same love, being joined together in soul, holding the one thought in mind, 3 doing nothing out of contentiousness or out of egotism, but with lowliness of mind considering that the others are superior to YOU, 4 keeping an eye, not in personal interest upon just YOUR own matters, but also in personal interest upon those of the others.” (Philippians 2:2-4)

This is the first time in a lifetime of debates with Christians, including 15 years in online forums, that I have encountered any Christian who has referred to this quote. In fact, I was unaware it existed in the Bible.

It does make me wonder, though, why is this quote so avidly avoided?

Reason that is very seldom used is pride and also many are not aware of it. Some are aware but can't see the application. Anyway, now that you know its existence you can always use it to remind someone who claims to be a Christian. Matter of fact you can remind me about if one of this days I get out line.

The quote is also based on the Golden Rule which says:

"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." Matthew 7:12 (NKJV)

“All things, therefore, that YOU want men to do to YOU, YOU also must likewise do to them; this, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean.” (Matthew 7:12)


btw, if you don't mind - what is mystical conviction?

thx,
edmc2

Originally posted by edmc^2

Originally posted by ButterCookie
People are becoming more educated, and there is no longer such a great need to worship gods that are not here...

Needs to happen immediately

Careful what you wished for ... will happen but not as what you expect it to be.

BTW - why are you in such a hurry?

thx,
edmc2

because religion keeps people unproductive

Instead of coming to the hospitals and caring for the sick, they'll 'pray' for you

Instead of taking that homeless person to a shelter and feeding them, they'll 'pray' for them

Instead of getting up and aggressively seeking a job, they'll 'pray' for one....

and so on

reply to post by ButterCookie


I wonder which religion are you reffering to cuz most of the ones I know are big on helping people materially, physically and most of all spiritually.

Is it all, majority or just a few?

thx,
edmc2

reply to post by edmc^2

btw, if you don't mind - what is mystical conviction?

The word "mystical" has quite a broad application, but when I refer to it, I have in mind the teachings as given by those regarded as mystics and which focus on experiential realization through the practice of meditation.

Originally posted by mysticnoon
reply to post by edmc^2

 

btw, if you don't mind - what is mystical conviction?

The word "mystical" has quite a broad application, but when I refer to it, I have in mind the teachings as given by those regarded as mystics and which focus on experiential realization through the practice of meditation.

Thanks.

Is it similar to Eastern Mysticism or New Age (ala Shirley MacLaine)?

Just curious.

Thx,
edmc2