Is being gay a choice/lifestyle?

You're full of it.
You ignore both direct (talking to gay people) and indirect (the sheep experiment) evidence.
You're willingly ignorant in a seemingly permanent way, and I am not going to think of that as my problem, because it's yours.
I am done talking to you.

Dear Reader,

Shortly after I had gone from the seminary to my first pastorate in 1948, Louise invited my wife, Anna Marie, and me to have Sunday dinner with her family. She has been one of our dearest friends ever since. Recently, during one of the many visits we have had since then she said to me �My brother hates God because God made him gay, and he knows he is going to hell, and I do, too, for that is what the Bible says.� At that time I had only some suppositions - quite negative - about homosexuality and had never thought it needed study. But her words made me want to know as much as I could learn.

When I began reading I soon realized things about myself I now deplore: I was ignorant of the many facts about homosexuality and what the Bible says about it. Yet, without facts, I had pre-judged it; I was prejudiced. With little thought I had read into the Bible what I presumed it ought to say instead of reading out of it what it did say. My idea of not needing to study the subject was pure anti-intellectualism. I am now grateful to God that He led me to study.

I read some two score books, most by eminent sociologists, psychologists and theologians. Then I wrote this letter to Louise, reflecting what I have come to believe is the truth about homosexuality, what the Bible says and what God wants us to think and do about it.

Now I want others to study seriously this matter of such importance to many lives and many churches and denominations. I asked for and received Louise�s permission to share her letter with others. I pray it may be helpful.

Bruce W. Lowe, January 2002

The letter and references can be found at www.godmademegay.com

Jakko:

"You are full of it"... do you know what that means? Because if you know, then you are prove to be the most rude ATSer . Just quit swearing please, there is no need for that.

As for the homosexuality, I highly agree with those, claiming that homophilia is a behaviour, and everyone is responsible for their actions in life. There is nothing wrong with homosexuality, as long as the participants bear the consequences in the community.

That's not what this discussion was about Istvan.
Choice/nature...

And TACHYON is full of it, it's not ment as a flame, I am simply being honest.

Just a thought:

Two questions/comments:

1) In "the letter", the following was said:

"the very small percentage of them reportedly being changed after hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars being spent in psychotherapy"

From this statement alone, it proves that with this percentage, at least, being gay is NOT natural.

Can someone please explain this?

2) someone mentioned about when you grow up that you are "naturally" attracted to the opposite sex...my second question is this:

"Do you not agree that influences in your younger childhood - those that you cannot remember - can influence this "attraction"?

3) Someone also mentioned about christianity etc re marriage. Well, if you must know, marriage takes place around the world in many different cultures and it is not only a "christian" thing. The "symbolism" of marriage has been happening for thousands of years.

Personally, I will only get married when I want to have kids - mainly to provide the child with, at least, a single surname and stability.

Why on earth are gay people hell bent on wanting "society" to accept them all the time? Get on with your life - be gay if you want - I don't care, but please stop trying to "legislate" gay acceptance because all you'll do is have people ask the question; "why do they want this"?. If you accepted being gay then you wouldn't even need marriage - it's only a way so that you can be accepted by society by having a legal "bit of paper".

Ready for the flames now

JS

Originally posted by jumpspace
Why on earth are gay people hell bent on wanting "society" to accept them all the time? Get on with your life - be gay if you want - I don't care, but please stop trying to "legislate" gay acceptance because all you'll do is have people ask the question; "why do they want this"?. If you accepted being gay then you wouldn't even need marriage - it's only a way so that you can be accepted by society by having a legal "bit of paper".

Ready for the flames now

JS

Because theyn want to prove that they are better than heterosexuals... how pity!!

Tachyon and Istvan, as usual you made your choice and things like objectivity, the facts or truth will never get you to alter those opinions so off you go and think what you think, it's getting boring, yes yes yes I am the enemy of mankind/God?nature?society (feel free to fill in any blanks I missed)) and I shall be coming to a town near you soon to rape all your male children and make you all think I am BETTER than you and force every one to worship me and follow my evil lifestyle. You are like gnats beneath my fist, do you hear me gnats..BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

re>the small precentage of gays who have been made to change, thus proving they can be changed, yes I knew a few myself, so screwed up about their sexuality and what people think of them that they grit there teeth, sleep with members of the opposite sex and convince themselves and the rest of the world that they are straight. They're called closet queens and I was one of them, the formerly mentioned have just stepped back into it.

Originally posted by ubermunche
They're called closet queens and I was one of them, the formerly mentioned have just stepped back into it.

I am a stright man and I am hear to tell you dont let ANYBODY tell you who you are. If you are not hurting anyone else # them. Be proud of who and what you are and dont look back

Originally posted by Jakko
You're full of it.
You ignore both direct (talking to gay people) and indirect (the sheep experiment) evidence.
You're willingly ignorant in a seemingly permanent way, and I am not going to think of that as my problem, because it's yours.
I am done talking to you.

Dear Reader,

Shortly after I had gone from the seminary to my first pastorate in 1948, Louise invited my wife, Anna Marie, and me to have Sunday dinner with her family. She has been one of our dearest friends ever since. Recently, during one of the many visits we have had since then she said to me �My brother hates God because God made him gay, and he knows he is going to hell, and I do, too, for that is what the Bible says.� At that time I had only some suppositions - quite negative - about homosexuality and had never thought it needed study. But her words made me want to know as much as I could learn.

When I began reading I soon realized things about myself I now deplore: I was ignorant of the many facts about homosexuality and what the Bible says about it. Yet, without facts, I had pre-judged it; I was prejudiced. With little thought I had read into the Bible what I presumed it ought to say instead of reading out of it what it did say. My idea of not needing to study the subject was pure anti-intellectualism. I am now grateful to God that He led me to study.

I read some two score books, most by eminent sociologists, psychologists and theologians. Then I wrote this letter to Louise, reflecting what I have come to believe is the truth about homosexuality, what the Bible says and what God wants us to think and do about it.

Now I want others to study seriously this matter of such importance to many lives and many churches and denominations. I asked for and received Louise�s permission to share her letter with others. I pray it may be helpful.

Bruce W. Lowe, January 2002

The letter and references can be found at www.godmademegay.com

Talking to gay people on here, will not change my opinion. They simply have not convinced me yet. They simply cannot convince me that they were so young that they were able to make an educated opinion, or even remember such statements as "I was born gay." People on here have told of thier friends who have shown signs, but they may have seen it from somewhere and imitated it. Kids are known for imitating.

How far will you continue to distort the facts in order to cover your theory, are you so desperate to preserve your outlook and if so why, if being gay is a choice then you can continue to indulge your disgust, your dislike, maybe even your hatred, is that the appeal and why you cleave so ferociously to that option.

And even if it were a lifestyle choice I'd still call you a nasty little bigot, who gave you or anyone else the God given right to condemn or persecute someone for opting for a different lifestyle choice than the one you deem acceptable, oh it's not natural (and when was the last time anyone here ran around in the buff and killed dinner), but it says so in the Bible, the Quran, etc, etc, well news for you all as proof of any 'god' and his 'laws' they amount to sweet FA, and if you support any attack or negative impact caused to other peoples lives (and lets face it this whole choice argument comes down to it's alright to beat/persecute them they asked for it) you need to have something a lot stronger than assumption and subjective conjecture or hand me down myths as back up otherwise that makes you look like people who simply need flimsy excuses to see violence and negativity perpetrated on others. Of which I'm rapidly coming to that conclusion.

See there's the difference, I have no agenda, I know I was made this way but even if I wasn't I'd still proudly stand up and say I chose to be this way. You just need justification for your crappy natures.

Let's see, what is producing that hatred against gays... Ten years ago homosexuality wasn't such performance like today.

Gays seem to form some kind of community... they are no longer treated as individuals, but as a big mass of people who are looking for roghts.

There is no problem with one single gay individual...

Originally posted by Istvan
Let's see, what is producing that hatred against gays... Ten years ago homosexuality wasn't such performance like today.

Gays seem to form some kind of community... they are no longer treated as individuals, but as a big mass of people who are looking for roghts.

There is no problem with one single gay individual...

It is wrong, not only to Nature, but also to religion. It is unnatural, and unreligious. If you are not religious and also gay, then you are still unnatural because you are violating the laws of nature.

The laws of nature, you say, what exactly are these trascendal laws of nature my freind ?

Deep

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
The laws of nature, you say, what exactly are these trascendal laws of nature my freind ?

Deep

Sexual Selection, and Evolution.

.........

There are no laws in nature, nature is anarchism dictate, as is, homosexuality is quite rampant in nature, and to use your logic, one could deduce homosexuality as a by-product of nature. You cannot give law to anarchy. Note the ineffectiveness of employing nature as the foundation of knowledge and trascendence.

It seems, in my honest opinion, that those who would rather judge homosexual behaviour on rancid dillisions in ones own mind, are hurting themselves, and not the homosexual community in essence.

Can't anyone not to revert to such Biblical argumentum ad populum coupled with its inherent argumentum ad verecundiam ?

History is filled with societies that lived in peace with homosexuality, and in some, like the 6/7th century Greeks, homosexuality was truely a cultural phenom. Greece, if used for determiniation of right accord, can be said to have the greatest acceptence of mans sexuality. The Greco-Philosophical elite, as described often through Plato, Poets of the time, and bits of history, were quite initimate with thier fellow man, whom they found more intellectual homage than the wives at home.

Blest is the man who loves and after early play
Whereby his limbs are supple made and strong
Retiring to his house with wine and song
Toys with a fair boy on his breast the livelong day !

The Greek Poet Solon.

Leave homosexuals be.

Deep

We could get philosopical and say that everything is God's will.

If every thing is God's will, then homosexuality is God's will also, and therefor natural.

If God did not want homosexuality to exist on earth, then he wouldn't have created it, and wouldn't have created the desire in the humans created in his image.

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
.........

There are no laws in nature, nature is anarchism dictate, as is, homosexuality is quite rampant in nature, and to use your logic, one could deduce homosexuality as a by-product of nature. You cannot give law to anarchy. Note the ineffectiveness of employing nature as the foundation of knowledge and trascendence.

It seems, in my honest opinion, that those who would rather judge homosexual behaviour on rancid dillisions in ones own mind, are hurting themselves, and not the homosexual community in essence.

Can't anyone not to revert to such Biblical argumentum ad populum coupled with its inherent argumentum ad verecundiam ?

History is filled with societies that lived in peace with homosexuality, and in some, like the 6/7th century Greeks, homosexuality was truely a cultural phenom. Greece, if used for determiniation of right accord, can be said to have the greatest acceptence of mans sexuality. The Greco-Philosophical elite, as described often through Plato, Poets of the time, and bits of history, were quite initimate with thier fellow man, whom they found more intellectual homage than the wives at home.

Blest is the man who loves and after early play
Whereby his limbs are supple made and strong
Retiring to his house with wine and song
Toys with a fair boy on his breast the livelong day !

The Greek Poet Solon.

Leave homosexuals be.

Deep

Nature is actually very organized and follows a set of rules. The workings of life are very organized and governed in a predictable manner. If one set of homosexual beings was let loose to procreate, they would fail, natural selection and evolution will favor sexual beings in the long run. Your argument of nature being unpredictable and anarchist is flawed. All things that may seem chaotic have a mathematical principle underlying them.

Yes, and this is why homosexuality has impeded the ability of every speices to procreate? This is the worst and most despaired rebuttle, pro-creation does not equate to logical deduction of homosexual behavior, not when its been proven that homosexuality occurs in nature, of this, no congent rebuttle can be given, for this is bathed in fact, not myth.

The laws of nature, as it would seem, are quite alien to you, you are stating laws of physics, biology, and a myriad of other restrictions we have upon our shoulders.

If you want to use nature as your transcendent guide to prove that homosexuality is wrong, then you have failed.

Deep

Procreation, in its totality, is the causation of self-preservation, which is the drive of all life. The will of man is not to pro-create, but to preserve ones self, pro-creation, as proven with the advent of technological advancments can occur in a myriad of ways, we no longer are restricted to tradional forms.

Deep

[edit on 10/2/2004 by esther]

Originally posted by esther

Originally posted by TACHYON
If one set of homosexual beings was let loose to procreate, they would fail, natural selection and evolution will favor sexual beings in the long run.

I did mention I had two kids, right? Therefore...

*hoses down your theory with a fire-extinguisher*

Next?

esther.

.

I was talking about "the long run." Not justs certain instances.

[edit on 23-8-2004 by TACHYON]