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posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 09:12 AM
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Originally posted by KJV1611
Soooooooooo....any more Bible questions to get us back on topic? I'm sure some of you have something your curious about that you have found in the Bible. Lord knows I have....


Yes, now that things have settled down, I have a question. In reference to the parable of the wheat and the tares, what is a tare? Can a tare become a wheat? If a tare is planted by an enemy of Christ, can that tare or any tare be saved from the fate of being thrown into the lake of fire? Is a tare even human, as we understand "human"?




posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 02:19 PM
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reply to post by 547000
 


Here is one verse that separates Protestants from the Catholics. There are many but I would say that each man needs to be fully convinced by what he reads in the bible that he is following the truth.

1 Timothy 4:1-5
1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.


About Seperation
1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

The following Scripture supports that we are not to teach anything that does not agree with Christ Teaching, which is the entire Bible, but made clear in the New Testament or better said as New Covenant.

1 Timothy 6:3-5
If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

1 Timothy 6:3 ESV
If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness,

Galatians 1:6-9
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
edit on 24-12-2011 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 02:21 PM
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reply to post by 547000
 


About Judgment: Note it is acceptable for me to rebuke a brother, fellow Christian, but I should do so without Judgment (which means without putting weight to ones error, as all errors are judged by God.

Matthew 7:1-29
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. ...

Romans 14:10-12
Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Matthew 18: 21-22
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times? “Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.”

John 8:7
When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 02:24 PM
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reply to post by 547000
 





Where in the bible does it say all Christians will be given the gift of prophecy? Why do you suppose because you understand the scriptures in your own way that you have the gift?


It does not say all Christians will be given the gift of prophecy but it does say this.

26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him. 1 John 2:26-27

"But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God." (1 Corinthians 2:10)

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and bring to your remembrance all things that I have said to you." (John 14:26)

"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH ..." (JOHN 16:13)

2 Cor. 13:14, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."



That is good but if you keep seeking the truth you will find it. The truth might not be comfortable and cause strife. If you keep seeking you might be able to overcome all the lies about the Catholic Church.


Personally I don’t believe in any denomination, I believe in the message in the bible and the Holy Spirit.




What about the people who provide brush aside the calls to repentance to fit in with modern philosophies? What about people who say you can live your life any way you please and Christ will still bring you to heaven when He said that not all who call Him lord will go to heaven. Is it judgement to state the truth?


2 Timothy 3:1-5
1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

No it is not judgment to state the truth. But let me make one thing clear when I say this. If your truth puts a certain weight to one man’s sin, such as you will go to hell for that, then you are not speaking the truth you are judging. No man knows who is going to heaven or hell only God knows. You do not know the secret lives of men. You do not know what is in a man’s heart. So to call a sin a sin is acceptable, just remember to not add any weight to that sin.

Matthew 7:1
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

edit on 24-12-2011 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Yes, now that things have settled down, I have a question. In reference to the parable of the wheat and the tares, what is a tare? Can a tare become a wheat? If a tare is planted by an enemy of Christ, can that tare or any tare be saved from the fate of being thrown into the lake of fire? Is a tare even human, as we understand "human"?


To be honest the Tares could be one of 3 things.
Tares could be actual humans who are evil doers; in which since it does not appear they could be saved.

The other way to interpret would be to say Tares are more the accusations and the temptations of Satan, in which case it will be the accusations and temptations that will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Tares could also be demons, but that thought always freaks me out a bit.


I personally don’t think the bible provides a definitive answer on this and I believe this is the intent.
edit on 24-12-2011 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 03:54 PM
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reply to post by Lazarus Short
 


Yes, now that things have settled down, I have a question. In reference to the parable of the wheat and the tares, what is a tare?

Well, as you know Jesus explains perfectly what the tares are in verses 36-43 of Matthew 13, but I get where you are coming from as to the identity of the tares themselves. I believe this parable is one about the Church age as the explanation mirrors modern day evangelical work.

I'll post the verses in question then we can examine them:

Matthew 13:24-30
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed TARES among the wheat, and went his way.


The enemy here is Satan, who works in the darkness while men sleep (key words here). The good seed that turns into wheat being saved Christians. The tares are lost people that Satan "infiltrates" into the church. Whether they know it or not.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the TARES also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it TARES?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the TARES, ye root up also the wheat with them.


The tares are counterfeit Christians who are perfect imitations of real Christians, but you can not tell the difference until the harvest where their FRUIT is shown (known) ↓↓↓ Since tares and wheat look identical before they seed or flower...or fruit, whatever the term is!

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the TARES, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

But, this parable could of course hold a double application as many do, and be explaining the Jews as well.


Can a tare become a wheat? If a tare is planted by an enemy of Christ, can that tare or any tare be saved from the fate of being thrown into the lake of fire?


This is borderline Calvinist, irresistible grace theology it that was the case.....but the verses don't talk of a conversation in the passage. BUT, if God can create a whole universe, make a donkey talk, and make the Sun stop in the sky....I'm pretty sure He can change a tare into a Wheat ↓↓

2 Corinthians 5:17
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."



Is a tare even human, as we understand "human"?

In this passage they appear to be human, but I definitely hold to devils indwelling people or even using human bodies (dead or alive) as shells to walk in the physical world.
edit on 24-12-2011 by KJV1611 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 04:25 PM
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reply to post by KJV1611
 


It is possible to tell the who is doing the work of Christ and who is doing the work of Satan. We are actually instructed to watch out for false teachers. A false teacher is anyone teaching anything that does not agree with the word of God, the bible. If we keep ourselves in the word, constantly studying, allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us in the truth than we will know. The fruit is not something that will be visible only at the end of this age. Fruit can be the words spoken, or their actions, or even the children of the believer. Satan is a liar and the bible is the truth. If Satan were to teach the truth he would be a house divided against itself.



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 11:38 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


That's great but there is no verse that says bible-alone. Bible alone is a teaching of man, men puffed up with pride and rejecting sacred tradition. Word also means what is spoken.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

Here is what Jesus says about authority you may dislike:

Matthew 23:2-3
[Jesus speaking] The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.

Here is a link you should read.
edit on 24-12-2011 by 547000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 24 2011 @ 11:59 PM
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reply to post by 547000
 

I would not trust 2 Thessalonians for basing doctrine, seeing how it is most likely a forgery made after Paul had died.
The reason forgeries were made and accepted was to reinforce church authority never given by Paul when he was alive.



posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 12:03 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


So you deny the authenticity of scripture?

All right, so what gives scripture authority in the first place? Is there a TOC somewhere in there?



posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 12:11 AM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 

2 Timothy 3:1-5
1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

Same sort of thing with 2 Timothy as I said about 2 Thessalonians in my last post.
There are three places talking about "end times" in the NT, one you quoted and I quoted from your post.
The others are equally or worse forgeries, Jude and the Peter letters, with 2 Peter more obviously a late addition than 1 Peter, with 2 Peter being more explicit about a "last days".
Jesus in John talked about a "last day" meaning a single day which is probably YOUR last day, when you are judged.



posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 12:13 AM
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reply to post by 547000
 

I deny an official church body which has authority to dictate what is accepted "scripture".



posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 12:23 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Then how do you know scripture is legit apart from your own opinions? The bible did not magically appear but was compiled together by the Catholic Church.
edit on 25-12-2011 by 547000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 12:27 AM
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reply to post by 547000
 


Anyone who cares about scripture will study it seriously to get educated as to what should be trusted for basing fundamental personal doctrine on. That may be an oxymoron, personal doctrine, but whatever the right term is for what you believe that will affect the way you live your life.

The Catholic Church did not magically appear.
edit on 25-12-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 12:34 AM
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Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by KJV1611
Soooooooooo....any more Bible questions to get us back on topic? I'm sure some of you have something your curious about that you have found in the Bible. Lord knows I have....


Yes, now that things have settled down, I have a question. In reference to the parable of the wheat and the tares, what is a tare? Can a tare become a wheat? If a tare is planted by an enemy of Christ, can that tare or any tare be saved from the fate of being thrown into the lake of fire? Is a tare even human, as we understand "human"?


There is no lake of fire...

A tare can't become wheat... the tare is "selfishness" Its not a person... its a weed. Even an idea...

It can be sown through the lack of love within your life...

And they come in many different forms...


18Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.


Meaning the one that "gives up"... lack of understanding of HIS words... Or even lack of love.


20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.


One that is worried about what others think of his faith in God... and begin to hate those that judge them


22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.



Obviously the rich man overcome by greed...


23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.






24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30Let both grow together until the harvest:


And the "harvest" is the time of your passing...

And your wheat and tares will be counted in your field...

So i hope your field bares much fruit




posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 12:37 AM
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Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by sacgamer25
 


That's great but there is no verse that says bible-alone. Bible alone is a teaching of man, men puffed up with pride and rejecting sacred tradition. Word also means what is spoken.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

Here is what Jesus says about authority you may dislike:

Matthew 23:2-3
[Jesus speaking] The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.

Here is a link you should read.
edit on 24-12-2011 by 547000 because: (no reason given)


I believe you are both correct and incorrect.

In the way that you are correct is that as a believer and one who is filled with the Holy Spirit, I have an obligation to teach others about the bible. In doing so I may offer up many stories or modernize some parable in order to reach a particular audience. Who knows I may even receive instruction from the Holy Spirit.

Example: for a small child I won’t say do the will of God. I will say choose to love.
Now you see in both statements I have said the same thing but to a different audience. So you are correct that anyone who claims to be an evangelist will often times put the words in the bible into modern terms.

In the way that you are incorrect is that none of what I teach can contradict any verse in the scripture. For those of us who have faith we know the bible is infallible. We know that God has preserved his message in the bible. So if anything that I teach does not agree with the bible I must be a false teacher.

Example: If the bible says love your enemy and turn the other cheek, and I say if someone hits you, you have the right to fight back, then I must be a false teacher.

Most of today’s religions are guilty of practicing some form of manmade dogma that contradicts the bible. So this is how I know that they are false teachers.

If man had the right to contradict scripture in essence changing the word of God, how would anyone know who was teaching the truth or who was a false teacher.



posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 12:42 AM
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Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Then how do you know scripture is legit apart from your own opinions? The bible did not magically appear but was compiled together by the Catholic Church.
edit on 25-12-2011 by 547000 because: (no reason given)


The scripture was actually compiled together by believers in the early churches, which predates the Catholic Church. But to be even more precise it was by the will of God that the bible was canonized. Giving man any credit in this accomplishment is giving man a place of authority and righteousness that only belongs to Jesus Christ.



posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 12:46 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I’m not sure if I have seen an explanation but I would really like one from you. Why do you so strongly believe that God who is the creator of everything. A God of love and compassion would allow his word to be corrupted so that we may not be able to have the ability to truly know him.

Surely a God great enough to create man can preserve his message in a book. This seems like a very small accomplishment for God. But you who believe in Christ refuse to believe that a loving God preserved his message.

Sorry if this sounded like an attack, it was not meant that way. It just seems to me that many people feel the same way you do, and I can’t figure out why.



posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 01:03 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by 547000
 

I would not trust 2 Thessalonians for basing doctrine, seeing how it is most likely a forgery made after Paul had died.
The reason forgeries were made and accepted was to reinforce church authority never given by Paul when he was alive.


Actually if the church were to listen to 2 Thessalonians the church would be far different than what you see today.

2 Thessalonians 3:6-13
6 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. 9 It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. 11 For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies. 12 Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living.
13 As for you, brothers, do not grow weary in doing good. 14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

It appears to me that Paul is telling the members of the Church that they ALL SHOULD WORK WITH THEIR HANDS to provide for themselves. Basically saying that all the apostles including himself set the example of working night and day in order to pay for everything they ate. It would appear that all church members were to work with their hands so that they wouldn’t be a burden to the church. I know there are several verses throughout the New Testament that mention a teacher may receive support from the church. But it appears here, and in many other verses, that support should be minimal (food, clothing) and the teacher should try to support himself and his family by working with his hands.

When you put all the context of the New Testament together this appears to be the message. But today we have idle teachers that expect to receive as their sole source of income, money from the church. So I’m not sure how you say that 2 Thessalonians increases church authority, when it actually appears to diminish it.



posted on Dec, 25 2011 @ 01:04 AM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


Why do you ignore what Jesus and the apostles say to follow doctrines of men like scripture alone and faith alone? No where in the scriptures does it say that. Rather it tells you to listen to church authority.

You said nothing outside scripture should be followed. So where in the scripture does it claim this? If you believe this you are following an unscriptural teaching. How can you do this with a straight face?

The Catholic Church does not contradict scripture, but YOUR interpretation of scripture. We have already seen that it's not up to private interpretation. We have seen John admit that not everything was written down. If everything was not written down, how can you claim because it is not directly mentioned in scripture it is false?
edit on 25-12-2011 by 547000 because: (no reason given)





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