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The Matrix may be reality

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posted on Jul, 23 2004 @ 03:50 AM
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Ai-ee, there are so many possible facets of this topic to consider that it's almost dizzying!

Carry on without me in some of this, & I'll try to catch up. You see, I just can't get past this simulation idea, and for some reason, I find it more horrifying than the hypothetical scenario of being a parasite on some giant's body. But I take comfort in the fact that I'll never know for sure.

At least that's how I imagine it. But when probability is introduced into the "matrix", the situation takes on an almost surreal quality.





From How To Live In A Simulation*
by Robin Hanson

what if people in the future create role-playing simulations where the people in it do not know that it is a simulation? This premise naturally leads to a premise even more thought-provoking: future people might create simulations of a world much like our world. If so, how sure can each of us now be that we are not now living in such a role-playing simulation? A related scenario is the holodeck of the television show Star Trek Next Generation. The holodeck offers computer-generated environments that allow real people to role-play not only with each other, but also with sophisticated computer-simulated people. Today, computer-simulated humans contain only a pale shadow of the complexity and sophistication of real humans. But eventually, if we continue to make better simulations at lower cost, at least some of our simulated humans may be as sophisticated as real humans. In a holodeck, a simulated person might not realize that they were simulated. So the question arises: how sure can we each be that we are not a simulated person in a future holodeck simulation? Obviously we cannot now be sure that we are not living in a simulation. The more likely our descendants are to be rich, long-lasting, and interested in simulating us, the more simulations of people like us we should expect there to be on average, relative to real people like us. And so the more we expect our descendants to be rich like this, the more we should expect that we are in fact living in a simulation [Bostom 2001].


The bit about we cannot now be sure that we are not living in a simulation, well that's self-evident in a way. But the "likelihood" and probability aspects stated in this - surely this cannot be logical?

www.jetpress.org...




posted on Jul, 23 2004 @ 04:23 AM
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I don't understand the dilema though. Ok, so let's say it's a simulation, why is a big deal?

Is there really any big difference between 'Reality being just a Game Simulation' and any of the other Major Theories behind our purpose for being here and alive in general??

I mean on one hand the GameMaster is something named 'God' and on the other hand the GameMaster is a 'SuperComputer' or whatever. Both have set up Parameters and Rules. Any real purpose in either case is Vague at best which is really a big part of playing in the simulation in the first place. There are various 'theories' about our true Purpose, although none are really any more factually known to be true than the others. None of us are born with an instruction manual or anything for personal direction, the best we have is to pick from the collective theories or attempt to establish our own and hope it's unique, but that is doubtful. Who's to say there is any real purpose anyway. Maybe there isn't.

Perhaps, we were all so bored living an eternity we all opted to developer a simulation environment that was also eternal in length, with no real end goal or escape, or purpose other than to just keep playing, over and over and over. After all, if you have eternity to keep yourself busy, the difficulty level would have to be very very very high or else you'd be right back to being bored all over again, and would just have to come up with another game anyway.



posted on Jul, 23 2004 @ 06:41 AM
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I've had another look at the posts here, and you're absolutely right, mOjOm, it is no big deal after all. My initial discomfort regarding this hypothesis probably came from a gut reaction, y'know, a primal thing like "fear of the unknown". I'm by no means an adventurous person, to the extent that I'd never in my wildest dreams consider a flight on a spacecraft.

My reality is my perception of reality, and it matters not whether my existence in the here & now is actually as a parasite amid what I perceive to be millions of others whose universe is bounded by our host [or giant], or whether I'm a virtual person within some computer-type game. I think I'm here somewhere, wherever that somewhere happens to be in my perception of it.

Maybe this thread has extended my thought processes. Or on the other hand, it may be that I've got used to the idea. I've been exposed to a number of varying perspectives here, and have the feeling that I'll evolve some more as a result. Evolve isn't the right word, but I can't come up with a better one just at the mpoment.



posted on Jul, 23 2004 @ 12:18 PM
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I think its a neat idea, alot better then some of the others out there. If this were the case if you were in the "know-how" you could manipulate these set rules and parameters. This could be Physics or any other science branch that involved manipulating the environment and what we perceive as reality. That said, It would be entirely possible for anything to be true.. somebody unjack me from this Matrix so I can join the development team (I hope its open source
)



posted on Jul, 23 2004 @ 02:49 PM
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I first thought that all was not as it seemed when I first saw an atom sometime in junior high I guess. It occured to me that it looked like a solar system.. and if you were to get enough of them together to make an object.. it might look like a galaxy. So I started to wonder if we (our universe) were but an object in a bigger world. I mean really just like a previous poster said we (our body) are 99% space.. so is the universe.

I truely believe that could be a possiblity...

As far as us being a simulation.. I could see that but I'd be more apt to believe it was a pocket universe created for study rather than a computer simulation.

One of my friends made a good point when he said.. and what happens when you get bored with SIM CITY...? You turn on all the disasters..



posted on Jul, 23 2004 @ 09:09 PM
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UnusualMe, I was feeling SO much better - then I saw what you said about turning on all the disasters when one is bored with Sim City. Now really, did you have to do that - I'm in shock now & likely to go into denial mode again



posted on Jul, 24 2004 @ 08:30 AM
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i dont like to quote movies but i feel its appropriate for this thread.

"i thought you said the matrix wasnt real?"
"your mind makes it real"

i think that says it all. our minds make THIS real. what we see and how we perceive is our reality. our own world, as people see things differently and interpret and perceive things differently so what we see and how we see it interpret it and percieve is our world.

the world is the matrix, in concept and in practice. we percieve interpret and interact with the world. no different than a computer program or simulation.

what i find is we like to take our opinion, which is an interpretation for what we see and hear and then think of it as "so". as in if we think things are a certain way then that must be so or we think they are. we think this because we want to think this. the way we see everything is the way we WANT to see everything.

so even my idea that the world is like the matrix, which i dont think is so far fetched, is something i want to believe. doesnt make it so but does make it a possiblity as explained by string theory.



posted on Jul, 24 2004 @ 12:14 PM
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Felt like I near busted my brain when I watched those chapters of String Theory, but I watched them for the second time. I don't pretend to understand it all - I got lost when an extra dimension was put forward, using the idea of the ants on the cable, I really felt they were stretching it there [no pun intended]. Maybe a better example could have been used in order to propose the idea of extra dimensions, but I'm no physicist.

Nevertheless, the idea of extra dimensions can't be ruled out, or so it seems to me. If so, then this could be extended to the idea of "multiverses", or that's what I think I learned from the String Theory movies.



posted on Jul, 24 2004 @ 05:50 PM
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Originally posted by Bastet
UnusualMe, I was feeling SO much better - then I saw what you said about turning on all the disasters when one is bored with Sim City. Now really, did you have to do that - I'm in shock now & likely to go into denial mode again


Ooo sorry hehe
But hey as long as the simulators aren't bored video gamers we are ok



posted on Jul, 24 2004 @ 06:58 PM
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I have a question for all of you about this subject.

Guess what it is?



posted on Jul, 24 2004 @ 09:03 PM
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It obviously wasn't about psychic ability or ESP. So what IS the question then?



posted on Jul, 24 2004 @ 11:37 PM
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As I am sure many of you have been talking about the matrix and stuff, a friend of mine said what if the whole world as we know it is just part of a very advanced video game. That sparked something because I am into games and the such and it reminds me of ./hack and i am wondering what all of you think?

[edit on 30-7-2004 by Amxkool]



posted on Jul, 25 2004 @ 12:13 AM
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Maybe there are some gamers here who can answer that. I'm not one & so I've never heard of oh ./hack

Still waiting for Desmond to pose that question. Doesn't look as though anyone's guessed what it was going to be.



posted on Jul, 25 2004 @ 01:06 AM
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Great thread. I've been meditating on this on and off for years and I still haven't discovered the cheat codes. There are ALWAYS cheat codes. I guess they may not be accessible internally, but I live in hope.



posted on Jul, 25 2004 @ 01:55 AM
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I was just thinking that the reason space wouldnt exist is because we are actually in one location, the same location that everything else exists in. So that when we think we are going to the store, the store would actually just occur in that single space around us and all the steps leading up to arriving at that store. And the reason so many other people can experience different things would be that it is all part of one single infinite space where everything can exist in one point. I guess this would be similar to the big bang except that everything is still like the big bang so that everything occurs in one single point with nothing existing outside that point because that point is everything there is to exist.

Nobody knows what lies outside of the matrix, if they did, I'm not sure they would have the ability or want to come back.



posted on Jul, 25 2004 @ 03:08 AM
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Ok, here is my question:

Have you ever thought about a concept for which you had no prior influence at all?



posted on Jul, 25 2004 @ 04:11 AM
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Sorry Desmond I don't quite get what you mean. Does an example come to mind?



posted on Jul, 25 2004 @ 05:04 AM
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I'm not sure if this is what you mean, Desmond, but if I haven't misinterrpreted your question, this is my answer.

I believe this concept of which I'm about to speak, isn't unusual in young children, so it won't exactly be mind-blowing to anyone here. When I was about 4 years old, I had the idea that the tree across the road was only there when I was looking at it. Actually, I was so sure of this that I used to sneak into the room on bended knees, keeping well below window level, & jump up real fast. This was my way of trying to snweak up on the tree before it had a chance to suddenly be there.



posted on Jul, 25 2004 @ 05:25 AM
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I know what desmod is talking about. Hes saying, Try to think of something that doesnt exist. Im not saying something like a blue banana, because you know what blue looks like and you know what a banana looks like, you just put the two together. Its impossible to think of something that doesnt exist. A good example is: Think of a colour that you've never seen. You can't. (And no Querple isnt a valid answer).

I love talking about this topic of reality, but the problem with it is that you can never reach an answer so you just start going round in circles trying to comprehend it. One thing that I always found interesting about the way we see our reality is the fact that we only have one sense; touch. The light touches our eyes, food and smells touch our tounges and noses, sound vibrations in the air touch our ears. Not taking into account esp, there is only one sense.



posted on Jul, 25 2004 @ 05:28 AM
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Originally posted by ThePrankMonkey
"i thought you said the matrix wasnt real?"
"your mind makes it real"


I agree to an extent but you also have the lines regarding the steak - "My mind is telling me that this is a juicy steak and I can smell it and taste it, but I know it's not there". It all depends on your individual outlook and how far you are prepared to go along with accepting that whatever you perceive can only be perceived by you alone and even then it is not necessarily truth.

But when an individual has to draw his own line on where reality begins and ends, he has to be very careful not to end up like the character in A Catcher in the Rye.




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