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West in "medieval Crusade", Putin

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posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 09:09 PM
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I don't think Russia or any other country that voiced protest over these strikes are doing so because they support Gadhafi or his actions. The point is that the US and its NATO allies have no right to intervene. Even the UN resolution for a no-fly zone does not grant a right to launch large-scale missile attacks and bombing missions.

What is going on in Libya is essentially a civil war. It is an internal conflict, and no external sovereignty has been attacked or threatened to warrant a response. Yes civil wars usually involve civilians casualties - that's the price of civil war. I agree that in a case of an outright genocide or ethnic cleansing, a limited intervention is warranted. So far what has been happening in Libya cannot be called a genocide in any way however.

Would you really like the US to intervene in every civil war the world? Just chose a side, make a claim that the side killed civilians (every side in every war has done it), and away you go. This is a slippery slope, and will have major consequences for the US down the road - much like a large number of past interventions have.

Are you certain that the side that you are supporting is the right one? Are you certain an even worse dictator will not replace an existing one? Look at what happened in Afghanistan when the US supported the mujahadeen against the Soviet Union in the 80's. And make note that the US is also setting a dangerous precedent. What if in the future it is your ally that gets attacked in a similar fashion by a new world policeman?



And ultimately, what is the goal of these missile and bombing attacks by the US and NATO? If Gadhafi lives, he will find a way to keep the rebels out of Tripoli. He doesn't need aircraft to continue to fight a civil war. Unless the US puts troops on the ground, it will not prevent this conflict from spiralling further out of control. Look at Saddam and Milosevich after the no-fly zones were imposed - they continued to fight their opponents.

If Gadhafi is killed, then there is certain to be some general or one of his sons to take his place in the power vacuum in Tripoli. You can't kill them all from the air. Again, without troops on the ground your no-fly zone and "shock and awe" bombing games won't accomplish cr*p.

So this is what is left: 1) continue the bombing missions, killing some civilians and accomplishing nothing; 2) stop the bombing missions, again accomplishing nothing and only prolonging the civil war; 3) Place tens of thousands of troops on the ground, thereby creating a new quagmire to place on top of Iraq/Afghanistan - no doubt that will become a breeding ground for Al-Quida and the like in Africa.




And for those of you mentioning South Ossetia:

Unlike Libya, there has been ethnical cleansing in South Ossetia during the war there in the 90's. After that, there were peacekeepers sanctioned by the UN, separating the two sides. When Georgia launched an attack in 2008, it killed a number of the peacekeepers (Russians), and launched an indiscriminate artillery attack on a city where there were no military installations or targets - only civilians. After that Russia moved in to push the Georgians back to the pre-attack positions.

And Russia did not launch bombing and missile attacks at Saakashvili's residence or Presidential palace in Tbilisi.

edit on 21-3-2011 by maloy because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 09:16 PM
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reply to post by maloy
 





The point is that the US and its NATO allies have no right to intervene. Even the UN resolution for a no-fly zone does not grant a right to launch large-scale missile attacks and bombing missions.


Why do you think Russia abstain knowing full well that all necessary measures would be used?




You can't kill them all from the air. Again, without troops on the ground your no-fly zone and "shock and awe" bombing games won't accomplish cr*p.


True. but do you not feel it could demoralize Gaddafi's people into changing side?



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 09:24 PM
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As a former soldier who has blood on his hands in operations for jew and gentiles, i have to say that the islamic NATION, the muslim mediteranian cresent, is reformed... The caliphate... All homosexuals, disabled, in fact, women, are about to have a bad day lol... Enjoy pc idiots lol x


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 09:25 PM
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AHHHH, look how we fall for it.
Meanwhile nobody knows the secret handshakes.
I spent my deployment in a country that still denies.
Did we forget the Wiki's? Did we forget the Arab Nations that pushed for attack of Iraq?
Shell games. PsychOps. Puff pieces. They play us, while they play it like a game of risk.
The outcome predetermined. 7 days of bombing, then they'll sort it out.



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 09:28 PM
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so why didn't putin veto this resolution of a no fly zone. one no vote from russia and the u.n. can't do squat.

he should shut and stop pretending.
edit on 21-3-2011 by randomname because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 09:33 PM
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Originally posted by jam321
Why do you think Russia abstain knowing full well that all necessary measures would be used?


Russia is just playing along, and perhaps helping to set the US up for another failure. Old political tricks. They did the same when they encouraged US to attack Iraq by passing info. about potential WMD's that was likely false (not that the US didn't know that it was false). It is a political farce in other words - Russia is content to sit back and watch this mess, occasionally throwing some criticism towards the US. Who can blame them?



Originally posted by jam321
True. but do you not feel it could demoralize Gaddafi's people into changing side?


Unlikely. The sheep that support him, do not have access to any outside infomation - they believe whatever he tells them. The higher-ups that stuck by him know the risks well enough, as well as the rewards which are well worth it to them. As for soldiers - Gadhafi's coffers are still far from dry, and there are always mercenaries in Africa willing to shoot at anyone on behalf of any paying customer. Plus thanks to the US intervention, Gadhafi will likely find sympathizers in other Muslim countries - fighting the "Great Sattan" and all that. I think the sides are pretty set at this time.
edit on 21-3-2011 by maloy because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 09:38 PM
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Putinhas probably been responsible for killing more people in the last 30 years than any other human on the face of the earth. He was head Of the KGB??? Are you kidding me? It was funny to see his personal puppet denounce him. Their "President" Can you say good cop bad cop.

How about the Arab league what a joke. They said they thought the allies were going to jam the regime's radar. There's no question it was made extremely clear the pounding Libya was going to take and the trap it was. That is why the united States was extremely hesitant to lead. I wish the USA would go back to our foreign policy of pre world war two. we were isolationists. We let Europe and Asia destroy itself for a hundred years. We have all the oil we need. We just sell it to someone else. Arab oil is cheaper.. I'd rather pay at the pump.. And watch all these clowns on TV try to destroy each other. Simply because they don't like how the other people worship. How sad is that. That people care what other people believe.



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 09:39 PM
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Originally posted by randomname
so why didn't putin veto this resolution of a no fly zone. one no vote from russia and the u.n. can't do squat.


Why stand in the way of US making a fool of itself again? All the sides and factions in the world that are opposed to the US and its allies don't really have to do much - US/NATO's actions invite a continuous stream of fury, after some propagandistic twist of course.



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 09:49 PM
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Made fool's of us? The live Military training we got from this is worth Billions. We are done in less than a week.The French wanted their Colony back now they can clean it up. We were just there to help. It's funny how people perceive kindness for weakness. The United States of America has never been more Powerful and with almost ten years worth of extensive Combat experience. I pity the fool that underestimates it.

I don't believe any of that. I just thought id get this party started. Well some of it I do lol



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 09:49 PM
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Forgive me for not reading through all of the pages, but I was thinking as to why China/Russia wouldn't veto the resolution. Maybe it's way for them to build propaganda against the innocent US(I use innocent loosely) in their countries to turn on the US. Or on a global scale, but who knows? Possibly, they wanted them to do it, but look like the good guys and complain about it. Sort of like how BP was all worried about the oil spill and the impacts it had, but secretly made lots of money off of it all. Or like how the US allows themselves to not supposedly receive that message from Japan before Pearl Harbor to get out of the Great Depression. Just my idea. Sorry, if they don't coincide with yours.



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 09:50 PM
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Originally posted by JerryB08
Putinhas probably been responsible for killing more people in the last 30 years than any other human on the face of the earth.


Really? When was that? Has he killed them all singlehandedly? Generalizations and absurd claims are fun and easy, but they make one look like a fool when the intelligence of the audience is slighty above a fried potato.



Originally posted by JerryB08
How about the Arab league what a joke. They said they thought the allies were going to jam the regime's radar. There's no question it was made extremely clear the pounding Libya was going to take and the trap it was.


The Arab league are playing political games. If the US or Europe actually listens to the Arab League and trusts everything they say, then the joke is on them.



Originally posted by JerryB08
That is why the united States was extremely hesitant to lead. I wish the USA would go back to our foreign policy of pre world war two. we were isolationists. We let Europe and Asia destroy itself for a hundred years.


And after WWII, the US has been keeping the world safe from destruction and conflict free like a proper superhero, thanks to its active involvement around the world. Right? What did we ever do before America saved us from ourselves?



Originally posted by JerryB08
And watch all these clowns on TV try to destroy each other.


How painful will it be for the US to sit and watch all the other countries play in the sandbox, while it has to be alone in isolation? Where is the fun?



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 09:51 PM
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Who cares if the Muslim World is against us. AK47 VS B2 Stealth Bomber? My money is on the US.



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 09:59 PM
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Originally posted by JerryB08
Made fool's of us? The live Military training we got from this is worth Billions.


Sure - it is not like the US hasn't a place to train troops and test hardware while conducting live military operations, where there is currently a quagmire of a war that has lasted a good part of a decade.



Originally posted by JerryB08
We are done in less than a week.The French wanted their Colony back now they can clean it up.


You think Sarkozy is stupid enough to take the bait and send anything more than jets to Libya?



Originally posted by JerryB08
We were just there to help.


You were in Afghanistan in 1985 to help too.



Originally posted by JerryB08
It's funny how people perceive kindness for weakness.


No, people perceive arrogance combined with recklessness for weakness.



Originally posted by JerryB08
The United States of America has never been more Powerful and with almost ten years worth of extensive Combat experience. I pity the fool that underestimates it.


How is that experience helping the situation in Afghanistan progress?



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 09:59 PM
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reply to post by PatriotAct
 


You think the United States of American knew Pearl Harbor was going to be hit and allowed the Japanese to sink all our battleships and fall very far behind in the Pacific? Not that the warnings were simply ignored like most American's ignore them today?? Interesting...Did we pay them to attack us? My signature is below.



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 10:05 PM
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Afghanistan? lol silly that's live training why would you want it to end? I was just there the sand box is going great it's a lot of fun. In 8 years of Combat in the history of man there has NEVER been lower casualties. We lose more people in training exercises. Don't believe everything you read. You can't help people that don't want to help themselves.



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 10:05 PM
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Originally posted by JerryB08
reply to post by PatriotAct
 


You think the United States of American knew Pearl Harbor was going to be hit and allowed the Japanese to sink all our battleships and fall very far behind in the Pacific? Not that the warnings were simply ignored like most American's ignore them today?? Interesting...Did we pay them to attack us? My signature is below.


According to Japan, yes they notified us. Either way it saved us from the Great Depression. Which is a big win for the military industrial complex. Follow the money...



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 10:11 PM
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Okay and the War got us out of the great depression? So the 3-4 wars (Mexico) we are in now we must have the strongest economy we have ever had. huh based on your Logic. And the Japanese have to say that or they lose face. Just like they had to say that there was no radiation leak. Have you bought any Japanese Sushi lately?



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 10:14 PM
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reply to post by maloy
 


Well obviously yours isn't. Do you confuse the KGB with the Peace Corp? How do think he got all his power? Selling hot dogs outside the Kremlin? An example do you recall the radiation tea he sent to the guy he murdered in London?

PS I don't drink Tea



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 10:20 PM
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Originally posted by JerryB08
Okay and the War got us out of the great depression? So the 3-4 wars (Mexico) we are in now we must have the strongest economy we have ever had. huh based on your Logic. And the Japanese have to say that or they lose face. Just like they had to say that there was no radiation leak. Have you bought any Japanese Sushi lately?


LOL; At that point in time it did help; Of course today it doesn't because we're still using oil for energy when there's clearly the cold fusion breakthrough brought about by the rossi/focardi e-cat machine, but the media doesn't care. I was just stating an example for the Russia/China thing. If you don't like that one example then fine; there's two others there. Also, there are no wars going on in Mexico, at least that the US claims to be involved in, just wasting man sources going there to further perpetuate the violence such as allowing them to keep their armaments and etc. Actually, the US is wasting resources all over the place for useless reasons, but nonetheless oh wells! Let's stick the topic okays!



posted on Mar, 21 2011 @ 10:21 PM
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We did help in 1985 and it worked perfectly. What's wrong did you get shot down by one of our Stingers? or were you on the ground with the rest of your comrades getting ur %#$ handed to you by a tribe with bolt action rifles?




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