My first issues with the Bible.

Well ok if it’s all open for observation without prejudice, which I hope it is. Give anyone a Bic lighter a flashlight and a portable music player, send them back a few thousand years and they would be a god. It’s not a matter of intelligence, but of worldliness. Faith requires the suspension of reason and I mean even if it’s for real. I’m not suggesting the religious faithful are wrong, just that I’m not amongst them.

If you saw the physical laws of our environment violated by a miracle, it would still require an act of faith to acknowledge. My first choice would be rationalization before belief, as it is now. A generation ago, the city of Troy was considered nothing but myth, based on elaboration by Homer. The events were grossly exaggerated, yet a Trojan war did take place and the city does indeed exist. To take the Iliad literally would be foolish, to dismiss all history based on the limited perspective of our ancestors, just as much so.

Given the scientific limits of the actual author, how else could the creation of the earth be described over a thousand years ago? First we would have to discover language and after that writing for it to be written, so even the faithful might concede it wasn’t a first hand observation, but an assumption. How would the author describe modern air flight, or genetics? Yet both exists in our world today. The lack of an educated perspective, still doesn’t automatically nullify an observation based in spirituality. We all agree life started somewhere, in that the author of the Bible is correct. If the question of where we come from starts based on naïve assumption, it’s still a question worth asking.

Even if you believe in evolution, at some point there was the very first generation of problem solving, tool wielding, humans. If the Bible calls them Adam and Eve, does it make it wrong? The common theory according to genetic tracing, is that we all came out of East Africa. If it’s proven beyond a doubt we all have a common ancestry, should the idea be discounted because it didn’t originate purely from scientific observation?

The wonderful part of spirituality, is that our imagination doesn’t limit the possibilities. Even in science “if” time is endless and infinite, than all possibilities can and “will” happen. I’m not bashing the faithful, just that I have no reasons to indulge in faith over science. There is simply no need with alternate realities, multiple dimensions and limitless time to allow chaos to eventually achieve the inevitable. You would have to at least to some extent, to interpret the Bible literally.

reply to post by ChaosComplex


The ancient Christian scholars knew of the plurality of the Gods in the book of Genesis. Nothing new.

It didn't matter to them.

Nowadays people start to wonder this may be the sign that the anciet aliens may have created the humans. Pretty much the same idea as that of the Sitchen's.

What if the ancient aliens were regarded as Gods by the humans?

Would that have changed anything on earth?

Nothing.

God is a term, a rank.

Think of a Colonel or a a lieutenant.

'Angel' meant lesser rank-'worker bees'.

Think of a private or a corporal.

That's why the advanced civilization of beings (aliens) that came to Earth (on a gold-mining expedition) fashioned slaves 'in their image'. Us.

That's why you will see at least 300 references in the bible of the term 'god' in a plural form. Us gods, we gods, those gods, your gods, etc.

Angels were always tending to 'troop work' (wars, kidnappings, messengers, and the infamous 'artificial insemination duty to create Jesus Christ)

God/Goddess also meant that you were a specialist in a field.

Try to understand that biblical writers were in a different era, and did not possess the modern terminology that we have today. Today, we say 'aliens, or extraterrestrials'. Back then, they called them 'gods and angels'....

They called it a virgin birth- we call it artificial insemination

They called it a wonderous star- we call it a UFO

They called it creating man in their image- we call it genetic engineering

They called it ' wars in heaven brought down on Earth- we call it an alien invasion

They called it the rapture- we call it a mass alien abduction

and the list goes on and on......

reply to post by InnerstellarOne


I'm not sure God "created" time. My understanding is that time - as we know it - does not apply to God. Time is a measurement of something, and I think that is a man-made concept. God doesn't need to measure time if He is eternal.

I'm sure time didn't apply to Adam and Eve in the garden, if you believe in that scenario. However, time would apply to them after their expulsion, because they would have had to learn how to judge decent of the sun in order to tend to their crops, protect themselves from predators, etc.

When God told Noah how many cubits in dimension the ark had to be, He would have been talking to Noah in language that Noah would understand. Today, God would tell you to build an ark in meters, or feet, etc.

Hm I don't have time to read three or four pages of back and forth "God is awesome" vs. "God is fake" crud so if this has already been said, I am sorry. The answer to your question, OP, is that the Early Israelites came from a polytheistic culture and originally were polytheists. God in Genesis is represents Canaanite tendencies - he is personified and comes down to walk around the Earth when he is looking for Adam in the trees, rather then being some omniscient being. This is reminiscent of the Canaanite Gods and other Mesopotamian Gods, because the Early Israelites started out as a polytheistic offshoot that wanted to be monotheistic. Originally, the Israelites were stuck between monotheism and polytheism and started with 'henotheism' or, the idea that there are many gods but God is the only one they worship. The Hebrew word 'Elohim', used by some writers instead of Yahweh, translated as simply God in modern Bibles, is actually plural - Elohim means godS. What it all comes down to is that originally the Israelites were trying to move away from polytheism while still have polytheistic roots and tendencies, which is why the Bible has instances where God is not all by himself. Similarly, the fact that Israelites condemn polytheism so much in the Bible proves that Israelites were actually PRACTICING polytheists, because you don't tell people not to do something unless it's already being done. For example, teachers don't tell their kids, "Don't bring cats into the classroom," but if cats started being brought into the classroom, teachers would probably tell the students not to do that... you only condemn something if it's actually happening, you know?

The Old Testament is not simply Judaism but it's really the evolution of Judaism from it's polytheistic roots to its 'modern' (ie, Jesus' time) construction. The Bible is not written by God, it is not divine, it is simply the Israelites trying to make sense of their own crazy past. This doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, but it means that the Bible simply can't be taken literally, and much of the Bible is really useless to us now, because we're not Israelites therefore we don't need Early Israelite laws and regulations, which is what much of the Old Testament is.

p.s. I just finished a theology class btw, my teacher is a Hebrew Bible scholar, which is why I know this stuff, but I couldn't link it if I tried, it's all stuff from books and research and her talking to other scholars.

p.p.s. Absolutely NONE of what I just said needs to affect your faith. God is around us in the real world - He doesn't need us to read some stupid book to find Him.

Originally posted by ButterCookie
God is a term, a rank.

Think of a Colonel or a a lieutenant.

'Angel' meant lesser rank-'worker bees'.

Think of a private or a corporal.

That's why the advanced civilization of beings (aliens) that came to Earth (on a gold-mining expedition) fashioned slaves 'in their image'. Us.

That's why you will see at least 300 references in the bible of the term 'god' in a plural form. Us gods, we gods, those gods, your gods, etc.

Angels were always tending to 'troop work' (wars, kidnappings, messengers, and the infamous 'artificial insemination duty to create Jesus Christ)

God/Goddess also meant that you were a specialist in a field.

Try to understand that biblical writers were in a different era, and did not possess the modern terminology that we have today. Today, we say 'aliens, or extraterrestrials'. Back then, they called them 'gods and angels'....

They called it a virgin birth- we call it artificial insemination

They called it a wonderous star- we call it a UFO

They called it creating man in their image- we call it genetic engineering

They called it ' wars in heaven brought down on Earth- we call it an alien invasion

They called it the rapture- we call it a mass alien abduction

and the list goes on and on......

Interesting views. One thing you have to remember also is that the authors of the bible, mind you, were just men. They were writing during a time when they thought the earth was still flat. So everything was explained off as divine intervention. Think about it for a sec, if you were alive lets say 2600 B.C and you saw a total solar eclipse, you would not have thought of nature, but it must be the work of some mystical force..some food for thought

reply to post by ButterCookie


On another note, instead of UFO's, those lights in the skies could have very well been comets, asteroids, planets and meteorites. All of the crazy stuff they were describing could have been totally natural occurances they didn't understand.

reply to post by sith9157


I agree and it further explains my points...

If NASA sent a crew of astronauts including some genetic biology scientists, mathmaticians, war generals with advanced weaponry to a distant planet with a less advanced civilization, they will call the new visitors GODS

The biblical writers were not the 1st account people. These are people that much, much later were all attempting to translate the Dead Sea Scrolls and historical heiroglyphics in order to tell the Human History.

We are saying the same thing

ALSO, IT IS PROBABLY NOT ANCIENT ALIENS. I mean, there is the slight chance it is, but honestly, most religions started out polytheistic. There are lots of different forces which create things - wind, earth, fire, water - so it makes sense that people would start polytheistic, worshiping each different force that killed them or kept them alive. I think we are not thinking very clearly if we are saying that "Oh, multiple gods = aliens" I mean, anything is possible, but the simplest answer is usually the best, and the simplest answer is that people create polytheism because it makes the most sense with the different natural forces.

Originally posted by ChaosComplex

God, in Christian terms is triune. Three persons in one. This does not disagree with that.

Thank you for that. I was not aware that Christians viewed God this way.

Why is it that everyone gets so defensive when I ask about these things? I believe that there is no reason to live if you don't question things. There is a reason for human curiosity. I'm not saying things like "you're out of your mind if you believe this book". I'm asking for clarification of straightforward issues I am having with the text, that is all.

and that's what you DO NOT understand...there IS NO questioning god's word. that's why nobody should ask any questions, or for that matter question anyones faith in god. because there is no right, or reasonable, or logical answer, that is simply how it works..... however, IF that belief interferes with your own personal life in any way, then it must be challanged vigorously and intensely. and that challange, the believers DO NOT understand...hence, the problem.

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by ButterCookie

 

On another note, instead of UFO's, those lights in the skies could have very well been comets, asteroids, planets and meteorites. All of the crazy stuff they were describing could have been totally natural occurances they didn't understand.

I agree.

But remember there are countless biblical texts that talk about the chariots of fire, fire-breathing dragons, or pillars of smoke/fire that were all (more than likely) describing flying ships.

When you read about the Star of Bethlehem, it describes the star as moving vertically, horizontally, and hovering.

That is not a comet or meteorite. That is a controlled vessel.

Originally posted by ButterCookie

I agree.

But remember there are countless biblical texts that talk about the chariots of fire, fire-breathing dragons, or pillars of smoke/fire that were all (more than likely) describing flying ships.

When you read about the Star of Bethlehem, it describes the star as moving vertically, horizontally, and hovering.

That is not a comet or meteorite. That is a controlled vessel.

The Bible also describes the world starting in 7 days after God creates everything from nothing, it describes the Israelites taking over all of Canaan, and describes God speaking to Moses through a burning bush. You really can't take the Bible literally. We write science fiction nowadays based on our own imaginations, I really don't find it a stretch to think that the Israelites had imaginations as well...

Originally posted by spacekc929
ALSO, IT IS PROBABLY NOT ANCIENT ALIENS. I mean, there is the slight chance it is, but honestly, most religions started out polytheistic. There are lots of different forces which create things - wind, earth, fire, water - so it makes sense that people would start polytheistic, worshiping each different force that killed them or kept them alive. I think we are not thinking very clearly if we are saying that "Oh, multiple gods = aliens" I mean, anything is possible, but the simplest answer is usually the best, and the simplest answer is that people create polytheism because it makes the most sense with the different natural forces.

Its not that multiple gods automatically struck as meaning aliens...

We are taking the logical approach. Worldly biblical texts talk about heavenly visitors, flying craft, and a civilization that 'came' to Earth with extraordinary technology.

Also, 'god' consistently appearing in the bible with a crew- a race of like-beings.

All that said, why does it sound weird to refer to that civilization who were Earth-bound, aliens??

Originally posted by texasoutlaw
So what happens if you believe in god and you die and nothing happens? What if one day the world finds out the bible was just a story made up? what if one day a being of some type show sup and leaves the world knowledge of what we are suppose to do with our lives. Would you feel dumb knowing you wasted your time in a belief that dose not exist

No. And no. Don't despair, friend. The machinery, and it is such, will automatically transport your spirit/soul to a dimension of time and space, and a reality that you yourself designed and made. When you pass, your mind is read. The Afterlife you see for yourself is what you will get. The "Light" can be questioned, you do not have to just jump into it, and it will show you, is asked, all of the many dimensions, read that "Mansions," all of the Heavens, the Hells, the Sumerland, Avalon, Vallaha, Happy Hunting Ground, and more. You choose.

Friend, hope you do not mind me calling you that, you sound like a person who is at a crossroads in life. Ahead you see two paths, and you do not know which path to choose. Here is wisdom....all paths lead back to the Creator(s). All paths.

Originally posted by spacekc929

Originally posted by ButterCookie

I agree.

But remember there are countless biblical texts that talk about the chariots of fire, fire-breathing dragons, or pillars of smoke/fire that were all (more than likely) describing flying ships.

When you read about the Star of Bethlehem, it describes the star as moving vertically, horizontally, and hovering.

That is not a comet or meteorite. That is a controlled vessel.

The Bible also describes the world starting in 7 days after God creates everything from nothing, it describes the Israelites taking over all of Canaan, and describes God speaking to Moses through a burning bush. You really can't take the Bible literally. We write science fiction nowadays based on our own imaginations, I really don't find it a stretch to think that the Israelites had imaginations as well...

You are absolutely correct...they had imaginations.

But

Look at this way. Back in that time period, writing was a new form and preservation of writing was an even more daunting task. Why would all the world's civilizations preserve writing about their imaginations and pass them down for thousand of years? Imaginations?

They were telling historical events, both passed down and eye-witnessed.

HOW could all the world civilizations come up with the EXACT SAME imaginations??

Honestly, all this thread is going to attract is crazy Christian trolls, and it looks like they are the type that believe our world is 6000 years old and that humans walked with dinosaurs.

From what those passages looked like to me, it very well could back the Ancient Astronaut theory, but I have a hard time taking the stories of the Bible seriously, since I doubt that Jonas was chilling out in a whale's stomach or there was some whack-ass wheel in the middle of the air.

But it's really not worth the effort to argue with the fundamentalists; I've seen at least one poster on this thread stating that our "science" is just a theory and that no one who is "sane" believes in evolution. The reason why it's pointless is because no matter how 100% well thought out and proven scientific theories are, they will hold their fingers to their ears and continue to assert how Earth has been here 6000 years and that carbon dating, space and the universe, and natural geology, all PROVEN and accepted scientific methods are "secular" and therefore are biased against God.

Just remember this: you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. This "intelligent design" argument is laughed at in every other first world country yet in the United States it is accepted and encouraged. The reason why the children in our country are falling behind the rest of the world is because we make our science teachers teach a theory that's based on a fairy tale about a man who created a woman out of his own rib; they talked to God everyday and lived in the most beautiful place on Earth; and then they met a talking snake who gave them an apple. And because they ate the apple, this "loving" God decided to turn Earth into a # hole and make our lives terrible. What a "loving" God indeed! Giving people cancer, allowing them to be murdered, and the host of other plagues on this #-hole planet, all because some chick ate a freaking apple. Count me out.

Originally posted by ButterCookie

Its not that multiple gods automatically struck as meaning aliens...

We are taking the logical approach. Worldly biblical texts talk about heavenly visitors, flying craft, and a civilization that 'came' to Earth with extraordinary technology.

Also, 'god' consistently appearing in the bible with a crew- a race of like-beings.

All that said, why does it sound weird to refer to that civilization who were Earth-bound, aliens??

Because there is absolutely no evidence that those aliens existed besides the text. Only the evidence from the Bible, which is a book that absolutely can't be taken literally now that we know that it was written by lots of different people over lots of different time periods to describe things that they couldn't understand.

Of course they thought that there were gods in the heavens - the sun is in the sky, the rain comes from the sky, and these two things give them life, so they would think that gods are in the sky giving them life!!!

I don't know where in the Bible it talks about civilzations 'coming' to Earth with new tech or what other text that is in, are you sure that is not your way of interpreting what they are saying, which could be totally different?

And of course God has angels, every commander needs and army, people can't conceive of it any other way. It's humans projecting their own humanity on the divine.

What I am saying is that everything you describe is easily explained by the fact that back then, people had no idea what they were seeing or experiencing, and they had to create stories to explain it all. We create stories even now that aren't based on fact - what if someone from 3000 years in the future reads "Harry Potter" and assumes that there was a race of magical creatures that came down from the heavens and then disappeared or something? Harry Potter is fiction, and the Bible is fiction. Therefore, neither of them can be used as 'evidence' which is what I am saying.

I am not saying that aliens didn't come to us, but I am saying that there is absolutely no evidence to back it up and that narratives from Biblical texts is not trustworthy enough to use as evidence, because most of it is easily explainable by their ignorance of how the physical world worked.

Originally posted by ButterCookie


Look at this way. Back in that time period, writing was a new form and preservation of writing was an even more daunting task. Why would all the world's civilizations preserve writing about their imaginations and pass them down for thousand of years? Imaginations?

They were telling historical events, both passed down and eye-witnessed.

That is simply false. Most of the stories were passed down as oral traditions and not even written down until the time of David and the Kings (when they had royal records and plenty of writing materials to write what they wanted), and then many more stories were not even written down until after Jesus. So first, these are oral traditions anyways.

But second, why WOULDN'T they put the effort into keeping these things alive? These stories came from their imaginations but it is how they really conceived of the world working. it was their science. Of course they would want to preserve it because humans want to preserve our knowledge of how things work.

HOW could all the world civilizations come up with the EXACT SAME imaginations??

I don't know, collective consciousness? Maybe because humans have fundamentally the same human nature? Perhaps humans actually interacted with other cultures and shared ideas? Or maybe because all the ideas start with Sun God and Earth God, which are, well, everywhere? There are lots of different explanations and what I am saying is that your one idea of what happening is clouding many other different explanations of what might be true. There is no evidence of aliens.

reply to post by spacekc929


Collective consiousness????

Or recording history.....