Common sense observation about the state of disaster of Fukushima nuclear power plant.

reply to post by Helious


S&F good post.

S. Texas here.

Now, Ill go back to making cocktails to relieve stress for those that need it.

Thanks, send me a virtual cocktail, I'll take whatever you suggest, double please. I need it.

BTW I've got my old civil defense r/hr (roentgen/hr) meter which is recently maintained and calibrated. It is zeroed and picking up 0.08 r/hr repeatably. That's not accurate because it's made to pick up only ionizing radiation at higher levels such as a nuclear attack or local disaster. Accuracy is +/- 20%. But it is a baseline that I can monitor, increases will be noted and reported. Not much use for particle radiation like beta,alpha,neutron.

reply to post by muzzleflash


I didn't want to name names but you are the poster I've lost a lot of respect for. We've both been around ATS for a long time, I typically agree with you on lots of things, but this hyperbolic nonsense on this issue is simply childish. I'll address you accusations one at a time.

Why? Because you refuse to change your life style. You refuse to stop wasting. You refuse to demand your govt's and corporations offer solutions or alternatives.

The electoral process here in the states is so corrupted I have no hope at all that governments or corporations would even listen. Take for example how the Tea Party was so easily co-opted by the GOP. My lifestyle is pretty mundane and I consider your insinuation a personal insult you know nothing about my life. I live in a modest house, have two fuel efficient cars, recycle what I can, piss my wife off by keeping the air up in the summer to save money, planning on growing some of my own food this year, and am nothing like the SUV driving, everybody in the house has icrap consumer that you insinuate.

There are new alternatives all the time, advanced solar, wind, geothermal, hydro, natural gas, etc, are everywhere around us! But I only get two choices, coal or nuclear. Can't you see how bias you are?

Geothermal is interesting,and by all means explore viable options if available. Like I said most suitable locations for hydro are already used and those not already used face a hell of a time getting built due to ecological considerations. Solar and wind only work while the sun is shining or the wind is blowing so they can't replace nuclear at all, but that's not a reason to abandon research and implementation of them as a component to our energy needs. I probably should have included nat gas in with oil and coal lets just call that the hydrocarbon complex (coal, oil, and nat gas) they do have the ability to provide base load capability for when the sun ain't shining and the wind ain't blowing, but they are not a zero cost solution.

This is all about you and YOUR lifestyle, Admit it. You don't give a damn if half the world gets polluted beyond recognition, you don't care if biomes are decimated, and you don't care how many deformed or dead babies there are.

LOL that's so laughably hyperbolic I'm surprised I'm responding to it. I do care, I'm a realist though there is no risk free solution to energy. Risks should be acknowledged and the risk-benefit analysis should be vigorously debated scientifically.People screaming about dead and deformed babies should be ignored as they are using the same emotional triggers that TPTB and the MSM use to lead so much of humanity in the way they want us to go. I believe the US should impose environmental equalization tariffs on imports from countries that do not have comparable environmental laws. We've not only outsourced our industry but the pollution that goes with it. As we all share the same planet industries that import into the US should have to abide by similar rules as industries that still produce here. We should figure out some way to reprocess spent nuclear fuel into something that can be used and reprocessed until it's storage requirement is something reasonable like a human lifetime or two.

I got a news flash for you. Your days are numbered. Your system is gonna crash. It's what we call "Unsustainable". --- Enjoy your party while it lasts, cuz nothing lasts forever!

I do agree that our current system is unsustainable in many ways. However, whatever system replaces it is going to have to keep the lights on somehow someway unless we have a worldwide regression similar to what happened to Europe at the end of Rome. There is a place for nuclear power even after Japan. We should, as appropriate, replace older reactors with newer safer designs. Actually invest in newer nuclear technologies (I'm pretty interested in Thorium Salt reactors and Pebble Bed reactors) while figuring out a way to utilize the spent fuel that we have accumulated over the past half century so that our descendants don't have to keep an eye on it for millenia.

Originally posted by jefwane
reply to post by SkunkSense
I'm really pissed at all the cries to stop all nuclear activities now and find them akin to some ancient tribesmen saying all humanity should not use fire because a candle fell over after an earthquake and started a fire that destroyed a village.

I hear what you're saying. You are making an analogy to the candle because you believe it's not the technology that is at fault, but our handling of it. Two points I want to make here.

Over the years we've learned to control how we deal with fire. Every year people die due to fire and yes we don't say "dam, that stuff is dangerous we shouldn't use it". Why not? Because the impact is usually localized to a few folks. The damage sucks but we can live with it, rebuild and move on.

Nuclear energy is not safe. We have not learned how to control how we deal with it, as any glance at the NRC site for nuclear accidents can tell you, and the impact of these accidents is enormous on human health. The lobbyists and pundits would try to downplay this impact in order to sell you the promise... the certainty that all will be well. However, nuclear energy has far more potential in what it can destroy than what it can assist us in building. Fallout damage is lasting, continuous and far reaching. It's not limited to the village. Not even just to the tribe. Radioactive particles live in the environment for thousands of years. Hot zones contain and will contain elements that can mutate genes, cause cancers and even death fairly rapidly. They continue to impact all species, making that land uninhabitable for generations. They become airborne and travel worldwide and circulate in the oceans contaminating sea life and the food chain. We have no current safe repository for the waste these plants produce so it is being stored "onsite" at reactors all over the world, or re-purposed into weapons we can kill each other with. Now tell me that is akin to fire or anything else we have in our toolkit. There is no good use for nuclear and no reason to use it.

Usually folks who want this energy really just want to maintain their way of live without having to DO anything. It's there, why not use it? Lazy. They want it all right now and aren't willing to shift. You're not willing to give up your ipod for just a little while so we could ramp up alternatives.. alternatives that are not hard to implement and would see our children inherit a far safer, cleaner, self-sustaining world. We won't divert our money toward these solutions to enable the creative leaps and advancements necessary because it's just so much trouble when there's a plan on the table for a shiny new puke plant that will 'solve' all our energy sucking problems.

Humans sicken me and I'm often so sad to part of this messed up race. The only saving graces are when I see examples of great love, compassion, leaps of creative genius, generosity and joy. It is only then I think we are worth saving. I think there is grace in all of us, but it is shielded by a thick heavy layer of greed and selfishness, and I don't exclude myself. We are all interconnected and all life is connected. We have a debt to pay that just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

reply to post by jefwane


reply to post by jefwane


I am confused at your post.
So what are you really saying?
What does your signature mean?

reply to post by Wertwog


I agree. The most fun I have had in life is camping without the "extras". I enjoyed the "primitive lifestyle" Seems like it brought me back to my "roots" and I made it. What a challenge. What fun to do without! Could I manage life without the extras?
You betcha! I liked it better! Brought me closer to nature.

Originally posted by jefwane

 

I'm sorry, I've got to laugh at people who are concerned about the planet. This planet has (according to science)survived comet impacts, meteor strikes, gamma ray bursts, impact by a mars sized body that left us with our moon, pole shifts, and myriads of other events. It may not have been hospitable to life as we know it through it's entire history, but planet earth should exist until our sun goes nova millions or billions of years from now. NO MATTER WHAT WE DO TO IT THE PLANET WILL SURVIVE UNTIL THAT DAY. Life has started over from near scratch multiple times on this planet.

I think people are concerned for our planets ability to sustain life, not that a big piece of rock in space won't exist anymore. If you find that laughable then that's your deal.

Have humans ever had the ability in the past to destroy their planet? No. Does that mean we don't have that capabilty now or in the near future? No.

Aside from the whimpering cries of "the planet is in trouble" I do feel we as a species are in trouble. Our inability to love our neighbor as ourselves, greed, overpopulation, lack of long term perspective, inability to get along with each other and generally selfish nature pretty much ensure that humanity will one day cease to exist.

You acknowledge that "humanity will one day cease to exist", yet you demean people who are concerned about this as "wimpering".

The Human population has never been higher on earth and is compounding. We are using natural resources at an unprecedented level and this will continue to increase. We are drilling deeper for oil - down to the level of the "lubrication" of continental plates. We are using water from pre-historic aquifers which will likely not be replaced and we are poisening much of the rest of our precious fresh waters.

Is this going to make earth go away? Of course not. But, at some point, the earth will no longer be able to support the size of the human population on it and then life will get very nasty.

I'm really pissed at all the cries to stop all nuclear activities now and find them akin to some ancient tribesmen saying all humanity should not use fire because a candle fell over after an earthquake and started a fire that destroyed a village.

Your the same type who says that we should continue drilling in the GOM like nothing ever happened with Deepwater Horizon.

When are you going to wake up and see that the companies who run critical infrastructure are not prepared for disaster? It's easier and cheaper for them to insure themselves and work deals to limit their liability then to actually be able to handle a worst case scenario.

You think Fukishima containment is intact because they say so?

If the containment was intact, the water from the fire trucks and helicopters (previously) would serve absolutely no purpose as the water could not cool anything within containment. That is common sense observation

Either the firetrucks/helicopter dropping water is for show because containment is intact

or,

Water from firetrucks does help cooling because containment is no longer intact.

In light of these events, it would be foolish not to take a hard look at the safety of nuclear power. When I was at Camp Pendelton, I was aware that a strike by our enemies at the San Onofre nuclear power plant could likely render the entire base ineffective. Nuclear plants are vulnerable and give non-nuclear enemies a chance for a nuclear strike event on our soil.

But you just go ahead and keep looking at people as wimpering idiots because you know better than all of us.

reply to post by Helious


Im am wondering why there is nothing about japan on tv or the computer. No news or videos. The hd video from us was given to japan to avoid freedom of info act. japan wont release it but its ok right. The radation might be ok right now but we are talking weeks and months of steady leaks and explosions [putting it hight in air] and the sea water thats contaminated is going right back into atmosphere and ocean. But everythings fine. maybe right now in us but japan is screwed. what happens when the fusion takes place we have 24 to 48 hrs before the plume gets here to the us. that plume would be worse. how come the only news is about 5 and 6 reactors doing so good. we wernt worried abiut 5 and 6. last i checked every video and news says 1-4. can we say disinfo.... we deserve to know.

But you just go ahead and keep looking at people as wimpering idiots because you know better than all of us.

edit on 20-3-2011 by AP-Chris because: (no reason given)

Thank you for your well-thought post.

If some of us would take a peek at previous posts on earth's adventures, who is getting the most attention? Those that do believe that something is not quite right or those that believe that nothing is wrong?

From my prespective, those that believe something is not right, outway those that don't.
Please prove me wrong. Because I am deeply concerned.

The people who feel something isn't right are called "Crazy" and those who claim nothing is wrong are defined as "Normal". If the world were to actually end in the distant future, the people who felt something was a little off would be prepared and therefore survive, whereas most of the complacent fools would be surveying the destruction while still saying "Everything is perfectly fine, let's party!" and therefore would most likely not survive. Moral of the Story: "Crazy" people get to continue living. How's that for irony? _javascript:icon('')

reply to post by xKhaosXREVolutionXx


So glad that I am prepared. I can see via work campanian's /communications that most don't believe or un-aware. That's ok by me, I cannot change that without looking like a nutcase. I just feel bad for those who don't pay attention to our earth. Rude, very rude awakening.

Please read my signature and link. Not trying to "fear monger' as those have stated. It's just the facts with links posted to original articles.

reply to post by SkunkSense

From my prespective, those that believe something is not right, outway those that don't.

I agree with you in a more specific way. Those who believe something is not right, outnumber those that say everything is all well and good.

Different wording reflects a few things:

1. Those that believe something is not right "outnumber", but don't outweigh those that don't. This is because those that tell us everything is fine, hold positions of power that most of us don't
   
2. Those that "say" everything is good, don't nessacarily "believe" that themselves.
   

Maybe jefwane works in the nuclear power industry and doesn't want his career put in jeopardy. I live in Houston and heard countless oil workers say the BP spill was no big deal and I know it was because they wanted to keep their livelihood.

That is what I think the core of the problem is. We can't just blame politicians. Many, many...many people who otherwise consider themselves "good" people work in industries and for companies that are responsible for much pain and suffering in this world. Companies which exploit natural resources, workers and situations so much that it is in their business model and they could not be profitable if they didn't.

Everyone has an agenda and it usually has more to do with what is best for them than reality or doing the right thing.

That said, generally I am happy with ATSers. As a community, most do look beyond themselves and are concerned for others. Some call it fear mongering (not that doesn't exist sometimes), but I think most do it because they are genuinely concerned and concerned for others.

Fukushima is one of the largest reactors in the world.

The world has, for some time, been running out of Uranium worth processing.

The boiling water reactors were originally designed to 'burn' low enriched uranium.

The reactors were converted to mixed oxide fuel (MOX) which produces more energy but in a boiling water plant is more dangerous & critical.

It is also possible that the plant was using some rods of highly enriched uranium and/or was converted from a 'burner' reactor to a 'breeder' reactor.

Breeder reactors give even more output and also create highly enriched byproducts (mainly Plutonium). This is both weapons grade and can be re-burnt later, giving even more energy from the same amount of fuel.

The problem is that running a reactor like this is skirting the edge of overheat. It can be managed but it requires constant monitoring and that nothing should go wrong as it can 'runaway' very rapidly.

If the reactor was operating according to its design constraints, inserting all the control rods should have shut it down and cooling would begin almost immediately. The company confirmed that the rods had inserted automatically when the quake struck. There should only have been an issue with leftover heat which still needed to be extracted from the inactive pile and which could cause boiling off of the water if the coolant system failed.

If the coolant failed and the water boiled off, the control rods should still have been sufficient to prevent the reactor from restarting, even though the insulation/damping of the water was removed from the picture.

Instead, we have seen rising temperatures. Therefore the control rods are insufficient to damp down the reactor and the reactors are still running, so the reactors were likely operating in a 'breeding' configuration and we are being lied to.

If the melted rods pool, and the reactor was running in a breeding configuration, the pool can go critical or even supercritical. This means that they could detonate!

Originally posted by chr0naut
Fukushima is one of the largest reactors in the world.

The world has, for some time, been running out of Uranium worth processing.

The boiling water reactors were originally designed to 'burn' low enriched uranium.

The reactors were converted to mixed oxide fuel (MOX) which produces more energy but in a boiling water plant is more dangerous & critical.

It is also possible that the plant was using some rods of highly enriched uranium and/or was converted from a 'burner' reactor to a 'breeder' reactor.

Breeder reactors give even more output and also create highly enriched byproducts (mainly Plutonium). This is both weapons grade and can be re-burnt later, giving even more energy from the same amount of fuel.

The problem is that running a reactor like this is skirting the edge of overheat. It can be managed but it requires constant monitoring and that nothing should go wrong as it can 'runaway' very rapidly.

If the reactor was operating according to its design constraints, inserting all the control rods should have shut it down and cooling would begin almost immediately. The company confirmed that the rods had inserted automatically when the quake struck. There should only have been an issue with leftover heat which still needed to be extracted from the inactive pile and which could cause boiling off of the water if the coolant system failed.

If the coolant failed and the water boiled off, the control rods should still have been sufficient to prevent the reactor from restarting, even though the insulation/damping of the water was removed from the picture.

Instead, we have seen rising temperatures. Therefore the control rods are insufficient to damp down the reactor and the reactors are still running, so the reactors were likely operating in a 'breeding' configuration and we are being lied to.

If the melted rods pool, and the reactor was running in a breeding configuration, the pool can go critical or even supercritical. This means that they could detonate!

Interesting, would you mind also posting this on thread for the folks there as well. I haven't heard about this "breeding" configuration before.

Very well thought input.
It's extremely hard now... to know what is genuine and what is not.
I rely on these types of sites to offer the truth or at least question the input from our government on cnn, msnbc, abc, ect.

reply to post by Wertwog


Wikipedia explains the breeding bit quite well. Here's a link.

To save typing, I'll copy & paste my previous post to the other thread (I'm not sure if this is allowed in ATS's rules, though but I'm hoping that they will see it is pertinent enough to the topic thread - please moderators!).

I am new here and am relieved to find people not afraid to pay attention to reality. I've been following the situation very closely and I wanted to share a couple of observations. First, a week ago during the night, I couldn't sleep and got up and turned on the TV in time to see footage of the second explosion. There was a black mushroom cloud, as many of you have noted, then it dissipated a bit and then there was streaming red-tinged smoke billowing up continuously. Since then, I did see the black cloud on a very short clip on utube, but it didn't have the red-tinged smoke...too short. The next morning, and since, whenever they talk about that explosion, they show the first hydrogen explosion and say that it was similar. No, the first was a dirty-white, and looked nothing like the second. Later in the week, the MSM and nuclear experts in the US kept talking about reactor 4 being the main danger but reports from the plant said they were focused on reactor 3, the second explosion.

Then on Wednesday, the head of the UN nuclear commission said he would go personally to Japan to find out the truth. Tuesday and Wednesday, the MSM was finally reporting some truth, like one nuclear physicist on CNN who said Tuesday evening that the situation was already worse than 3-mile Island and as bad as Chernobyl and getting worse. Then Thursday, after the UN chief visited, suddenly the MSM backtracked on everything, pretty much shut up the story, and then a few hours later, the UN did what they said they would not do and now we have Libya taking the attention of a terrified world. Even some of the other sites that tackle conspiracies are allowing themselves to be diverted. I am very disappointed in the gullibility and lack of courage of my fellow-man so I am happy to find this thread. I hope that people here won't turn against each other because it is lonely out there.

reply to post by SammyB


Welcome, feel free to check out the other forums as well. On this topic this thread has also been very useful to me with some level-headed folks who seem to know what they are talking about.

Back on the common sense observations.

I think most people don't realize how power is generated from nuclear plants.

It's almost comical in my opinion because it is still the same concept since the steam engine.

Instead of a wood or coal fired boiler feeding a steam engine to turn the wheels on an old steam locomotive, they create a nuclear reaction to do what?

Produce heat to boil water into steam which (instead of locomotive wheels) spins a turbine generator to produce electricity.

As far as power generation goes, we are not much further advanced than we where 150+ years ago.

To go back to the original topic.
Basic visual inspection of Fukushima facility.

It is screwed.

Multiple explosions, multiple partial meltdowns, no cooling systems, folks pumping seawater all over them.

Five fire appliances sent to pump water, four blown away by another explosion.

Smell the coffee.
Be wary of any attemps to sugar-coat this.

They should be bringing in the cement, and now.
If they are already using seawater, then the plants are written off already.

Cement puts out fires even better than water.
Why delay?
They are already written-off.

I say consult with the Russians as to what to do tomorrow.

Bring on the shotcrete.

Sprayed concrete

I am very sorry if any of my posts are off topc. I am just tired of others stating it's "fear mongerig" When in essense, we are all responsible for our own feelings/responsibilities.

Thank you for your post and getting us back on the orignal post.