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To The Brightest Minds On ATS, What Can Be Done To Get Our Country Back ?

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posted on Jul, 21 2004 @ 09:35 PM
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Originally posted by Gools

Originally posted by Soul Reaper
.....start with the money....


A bad place to start I think. At the proverbial "root of all evil".

It starts with educating yourself.


Why is starting at the root of all evil a bad place to start? If you really
want change, it has to come from within. I also advocate educating
yourself because that is also a fundemental way of understanding
your adversary.

Money rules politicians and the world. If you want to change
politics....you have to change the money to something the rich
folks and politicians don't have.......energy! We need to convert
our system to benefit us because we do all of the work in this
society. If we only were to work for ourselves to feed our family
and ourselfs (barter) all the rich folks would go "away".




posted on Jul, 21 2004 @ 09:37 PM
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Originally posted by Lastday Prophet
I agree with you wholeheartedly D, but don't we need a petition to get him out ? Maybe the petition should list all those we want removed from office, from bush on down. Maybe we can start by compiling a list for the petition and then begin circulation.


LOL. No, we don't need a petition to get him out. NEWSFLASH! There is an election on November 2. You can also vote a lot of other people out of office at the same time.

I certainly don't claim that electing Kerry is going to solve all our problems. But I don't see any problems getting solved if Bush gets reelected.

Bush has made such a mess of everything that it will take years, maybe decades to undo the harm he has done. If Kerry is elected, he is going to have his hands full. If the Republicans retain control of the House and Senate, Kerry probably won't be able to get much done, but at least he can stop the bleeding. No more insane tax cuts. No more illegal wars.

If Kerry wins in a landslide, and the Democrats win control of the Senate, then some progress can be made. If the Democrats win control of both the House and the Senate, which is a real longshot, then you will see some real changes being made. Gradually raising taxes and reducing government expenditures to balance the budget. Real government initiatives to develop alternative energy sources and reduce dependence on foreign oil. Reversing Bush's attempts to deregulate corporations and allow them to destroy the environment. Restoring America's place in the world as a responsible world citizen.



posted on Jul, 21 2004 @ 09:47 PM
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Originally posted by Soul Reaper
Why is starting at the root of all evil a bad place to start?


Oh don't get me wrong. It's probably second on the list.




If you really want change, it has to come from within. I also advocate educating yourself because that is also a fundemental way of understanding your adversary.


We are in agreement on that.



We need to convert our system to benefit us because we do all of the work in this society. If we only were to work for ourselves to feed our family and ourselfs (barter) all the rich folks would go "away".


Good idea. So you think that bartering should be a part of the new economic paradigm I was talking about above?

I would really like to know more. How do you see that working? I know little of bartering and have not done any serious research on it.



posted on Jul, 21 2004 @ 09:54 PM
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Yes, there is an election on Nov. 2nd. I'm prepared to acknowledge Kerry as my President and let him have his chance to do some good if he wins, though I hope he doesn't win. My question is, if Bush wins in a landslide, as unlikely as you think that might be, will you then support him as your President, or will you continue to divide America along the lines of those who hate Bush and those who don't?



posted on Jul, 21 2004 @ 10:13 PM
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Originally posted by muppet
What I'm saying is economic activity, and resource use, don't HAVE to be intrinsically linked, which means a sustainable, expanding economy is at least in theory possible.


What are some of those theories? Any examples? I would like to know more. Why does it have to be expanding? Why not in equilibrium? Nature works that way.



posted on Jul, 21 2004 @ 10:21 PM
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Originally posted by Gools

Originally posted by Soul Reaper
Why is starting at the root of all evil a bad place to start?


Oh don't get me wrong. It's probably second on the list.




If you really want change, it has to come from within. I also advocate educating yourself because that is also a fundemental way of understanding your adversary.


We are in agreement on that.



We need to convert our system to benefit us because we do all of the work in this society. If we only were to work for ourselves to feed our family and ourselfs (barter) all the rich folks would go "away".


Good idea. So you think that bartering should be a part of the new economic paradigm I was talking about above?

I would really like to know more. How do you see that working? I know little of bartering and have not done any serious research on it.


Easy, people already have trades and knowledge.....take that and convert it credits....electrician puts so many hours in society, hospitals government
etc., goes to the store and gets food based on the hours he's worked
in society. If you add this up family wise, you can get many credits for
trips etc.,it isn't communism it is actual value for actual work.

[edit on 7/21/2004 by Soul Reaper]



posted on Jul, 21 2004 @ 10:33 PM
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Originally posted by Soul Reaper
.....take that and convert it credits.... it isn't communism it is actual value for actual work.


Agreed on communism caveat.

Umm... isn't the money we have now supposed to be those "credits" you talk about?


And how do we value work so that no one gets paid say 1 million credits a year while someone else gets 30,000? We all live and work within the same 24h day.

EDIT: P.S. Soul Reaper. Careful not to attract an "Excessive Quoting" penalty. Quotes within quotes is a no-no.


[edit on 7/21/2004 by Gools]



posted on Jul, 21 2004 @ 10:34 PM
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Follow the money. Much of it is on 'K' street. Wait till they are all in their offices and blow it up. Make being a government vampire a dangerous proposition.



posted on Jul, 21 2004 @ 10:39 PM
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Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Yes, there is an election on Nov. 2nd. I'm prepared to acknowledge Kerry as my President and let him have his chance to do some good if he wins, though I hope he doesn't win. My question is, if Bush wins in a landslide, as unlikely as you think that might be, will you then support him as your President, or will you continue to divide America along the lines of those who hate Bush and those who don't?


Did I say I think it is unlikely Bush will win in a landslide? While I think a Kerry victory is somewhat more likely than a Bush victory, the history of Presidential elections shows that public opinion, as reflected by polls, can change dramatically in a short period of time.

Frankly, I am mystified that the polls show the race to be a dead heat. I have to acknowledge that Kerry seems to be a weak candidate, based on his performance so far. What I am really worried about is that some anomalous event, like the capture of Osama Bin Laden, or a major terrorist attack, will shift public opinion to Bush. And yes, I am paranoid enough to think that Bush could orchestrate either one of these events. I am also paranoid about electronic voting machine fraud. For details, see my post

Vin Suprynowicz on Electronic Voting Machines

To answer your question, no, I will not support Bush except to acknowledge that he is the President. In my opinion, the man is totally unqualified for the office. I disagree with practically every one of his policies, except his policies on gun control and free trade.

Why do you place the onus of dividing America on me? I am just exercising my rights as a citizen to criticize the President and his policies.

I am glad you will support Kerry and give him a chance if he is elected. My guess is that most Republicans will do exactly what they did with Clinton. They will attack him mercilessly and do everything possible to drive him from office.



posted on Jul, 21 2004 @ 10:40 PM
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Unfortunately the fiat money system we have in place now is only a tool
for big business and governments. We have become enslaved to this
credit system in that we are working for someone else. Only death and taxes are certain in this world my friend.



posted on Jul, 21 2004 @ 10:51 PM
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AS got it on the nose.
What can you do to reform America?

NOTHING - YOU'RE TOO LATE

If you are waking up to the situation now, then its too late to make any real changes.

Sure you can try, make a few petitions, have a few demonstrations, but you will only be allowed to go as far as the government lets you. No further.

As AS says, you are now part of the problem, not the solution. Its now corruption enculturated into the society. It is a CORRUPT SOCIETY, not just a corrupt government.

Insead of being change agents, you are merely semi autonomous pawns. The chances of anyone being ALLOWED to change America for the better are past, and probably have been for a very long time, maybe it stopped when the bullet hit home in Dallas.

So what can you do, knowing that the country is screwed and not going to get any better?

1 Get with it! If you can't change society, then become part of it. Vote BUSH! Get patriotic, get enthusiastic about invading Iran, Korea, Mexico, canada. Beat up people of other ethnicities, or cultures. make yourself feel superior to the rest of the world. Get arrogent, get rude, get armed.

2 Get out of it Lose yourself in something esle, Try eastern religions, drugs, alternative lifestyles. Move to another country (but leave your # behind first, they won't want it either). Watch more TV. Believe that aliens will save us.

3. Get over it Your screwed, the country is #, but you will have enough to eat, you will have a nice car, house, large screen TV. Foeget it, go and read another website, or just stick with the UFO section. Kick back enjoy your money, wear real fur, smoke, try eating whale meat. Its all someone elses problem.


Originally posted by Ambient Sound
I find it amusing when people talk about "taking our country back". Who exactly are you going to take it back from? The Government? Got news for ya. They are almost all Americans. Going to take it back from the Corperations? Most of them that you think own it are staffed and owned by, yep, Americans. Why not say what you really mean? Why not say that you want to take it back from the other Americans who don't agree with how you think things should be? Wouldn't that be closer to the truth?



posted on Jul, 21 2004 @ 11:00 PM
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Originally posted by donguillermo
I guarantee you, if Bush is reelected, he will transform this country into a theocratic, national-security police state.


Guarantee?! That is a pretty strong word. What do you have to back your guarantee up with?


Originally posted by donguillermo
You people laugh at me when I tell you Bush = Hitler. If Bush is reelected, the velvet gloves will come off, and you will see the naked fists of fascist totalitarianism. Then you will be telling me I am a prophet.


I think someone has been reading a little too much Orwell.


Originally posted by donguillermo

And we will have wars. The Bush Crime Family is already beating the drums for a war against Iran. I guarantee you. 4 more years = 4 more wars.


There is that guarantee word you use so loosely again. 4 more wars!? Wow, and all on your guarantee. You would make a great used car salesman.

I can understand your dislike for GW Bush, but come on, I think your ideas and logic are just a bit too extreme.

Seriously, how has your freedom or anyone you know been altered in away way, shape or form? I can say personally, nothing has changed for me. In fact, I have had the best 3 years of my life in every aspect, so I guess I don't understand where you are coming from. I have had the best 3 years financially than any other 3 year stretch. I haven't been detained for no reason whatsoever in the past 3 years. I guess I don't agree with you because for me and just about everyone I know, have had a great past 3 years.



posted on Jul, 21 2004 @ 11:02 PM
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one thing missing in all this planning for petitions and whatnot. After we get rid of the current ppl in the government (and possibly money altogether???) what then? Elect Kerry? Seems like four years ago everyone only wanted to get Clinton out of the White house. Did they think about how the two prime candidates they selected werent very good choices either(yes, i know i just set myself up for flames on the democratic and republican sides....please dont kill me)? I would guess not.

Now this election year, the same thing is happening. All we want is the current goverment out of office. Maybe we need to think of what we want, not what we dont want. All these ppl want change, but do not step up for a complete plan of change, only a beginning, which ultimately gets filled by another bad thing.

We look up to powerful ppl. this is how they get elected. Powerful and rich ppl will always head for government to get more power. I dont think we can escape that.

Please prove me wrong

---pineapple



posted on Jul, 21 2004 @ 11:31 PM
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nyarlathotep says


Guarantee?! That is a pretty strong word. What do you have to back your guarantee up with?


I am a prophet and student of history.


I think someone has been reading a little too much Orwell.


More like "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer.


There is that guarantee word you use so loosely again. 4 more wars!? Wow, and all on your guarantee. You would make a great used car salesman.


Like I said, I am a prophet. War with Iran is a virtual certainty. War with Syria and North Korea is extremely likely. Bush is such a screwup, he will probably manage to find some other country to invade.


Seriously, how has your freedom or anyone you know been altered in away way, shape or form? I can say personally, nothing has changed for me. In fact, I have had the best 3 years of my life in every aspect, so I guess I don't understand where you are coming from. I have had the best 3 years financially than any other 3 year stretch. I haven't been detained for no reason whatsoever in the past 3 years. I guess I don't agree with you because for me and just about everyone I know, have had a great past 3 years.


I don't know if you are a Republican, but your attitude is the same as most Republicans. Total selfishness. As long as you are doing well, you think Bush is a great guy. It doesn't bother you that Bush claims he has the right to imprison American citizens indefinitely, with no charges filed and no right to an attorney, on his say so alone?

900 American soldiers and 17,000 Iraqi civilians are dead because of Bush's insane Iraq War. 5,000+ more soldiers have been seriously wounded. That adds up to a lot of suffering for the soldiers and their families. The $125 billion that Bush has wasted in Iraq could have put an end to homelessness and greatly improved the situation of the poor in this country. Bush's policies have caused a lot of suffering and prevented the remediation of a lot more suffering. But you don't care, because you and your friends have got yours.

How does that old saying about Nazi Germany go?

When they came for the Jews, I said nothing, because I was not a Jew.
When they came for the Catholics, I said nothing, because I was not a Catholic.

One day, the jackbooted thugs will come for you and your well off friends, and there will be no one left to say anything.

You have been warned. The prophet has spoken.



posted on Jul, 21 2004 @ 11:46 PM
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Originally posted by donguillermo
but your attitude is the same as most Republicans. Total selfishness. As long as you are doing well, you think Bush is a great guy.


Where in my post does it say that I think Bush is a great guy? I am doing good, so I am supposed to think he's bad?


Originally posted by donguillermo
Bush's policies have caused a lot of suffering and prevented the remediation of a lot more suffering. But you don't care, because you and your friends have got yours.


So what am I supposed to do? Change things so everyone else will be OK and possibly not me? I don't understand this. I don't step all over people to better myself, buy I am bettering myself, am I supposed to feel sorry for people who can't or won't ?



Originally posted by donguillermo
How does that old saying about Nazi Germany go?

When they came for the Jews, I said nothing, because I was not a Jew.
When they came for the Catholics, I said nothing, because I was not a Catholic.


That is not even a fair comparison and you know it.


Originally posted by donguillermo
One day, the jackbooted thugs will come for you and your well off friends, and there will be no one left to say anything.


For what? Bettering myself and family? For being an upstanding citizen that cares for his country? For being someone that donates time and money to charities and my community? For actively participating in my children's schools and local government that benefits the community? My friends and I are not that well off, but what we do have we have worked very hard at our jobs, community and local government to get it. I guess I am a greedy, selfish Republican though, huh?

Edit: Don, I don't know if you have a family or not, but when/if you do, priorities tend to change and well as the time you have to accomplish them.

Like I said, I have a wife and 3 kids, I have a mortgage for a home that we busted our tails to get, I have my wife and my family, our friends, our careers, our community which includes the neighborhood, schools, local government etc.

After I spend my time and efforts on those things, I have very little time or care to worry about other people. That it not to say I don't care, but I am certainly not selfish and to be quite honest, I am offended by that comment, allthough you don't know what type of person I am, but you are rather presumptuous to think that I am selfish person for my beliefs.



[edit on 7-22-2004 by nyarlathotep]



posted on Jul, 22 2004 @ 12:34 AM
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nyarlathotep says



Originally posted by donguillermo
How does that old saying about Nazi Germany go?

When they came for the Jews, I said nothing, because I was not a Jew.
When they came for the Catholics, I said nothing, because I was not a Catholic.


That is not even a fair comparison and you know it.


I made this comment in reference to this


I can understand your dislike for GW Bush, but come on, I think your ideas and logic are just a bit too extreme.

Seriously, how has your freedom or anyone you know been altered in away way, shape or form?



For what? Bettering myself and family? For being an upstanding citizen that cares for his country? For being someone that donates time and money to charities and my community? For actively participating in my children's schools and local government that benefits the community? My friends and I are not that well off, but what we do have we have worked very hard at our jobs, community and local government to get it. I guess I am a greedy, selfish Republican though, huh?


You sound like a fine man. If everyone were like you, this country would be a paradise. But everyone is not like you, and it is not necessarily because they are lazy or expect the government to support them. Ever hear the saying, "There but for the grace of God go I"? Many homeless people are mentally ill. Many others have had financial or emotional setbacks from which they have not been able to recover. Many millions want to work, but cannot find jobs. Based on the fact that you donate time and money to charities, you do not sound like your are as selfish as I first judged. Not that there is anything wrong with being selfish. There is a perfectly logical and consistent philosophy called Objectivism by Ayn Rand that advocates selfishness as the only rational philosophy of life.


After I spend my time and efforts on those things, I have very little time or care to worry about other people. That it not to say I don't care, but I am certainly not selfish and to be quite honest, I am offended by that comment, allthough you don't know what type of person I am, but you are rather presumptuous to think that I am selfish person for my beliefs.


I can only judge you by what you write. If being called selfish offends you, then you are not truly selfish. Truly selfish people are proud of being selfish.


[edit on 7/22/2004 by donguillermo]



posted on Jul, 22 2004 @ 12:41 AM
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Thanks for honest reply DonGuillermo. I agree that some things have not been right under the George Bush term, but I really think your ideas are extreme. Come on, you think that if GWB gets re-elected, we will have a national-security police state in just 4 years time?


I really honor your right to your opinion and appreciate being able to get a little personal with you without flaming each other, even if we don't see eye to eye


Edit: I am not one of the Neocons that think being a Dem is someone who supports people who are lazy and welch off the system, I just don't agree with all of the social-type programs.


2nd edit: "There but for the grace of God go I"? No I haven't heard of this phrase before, please axplain it to me.

[edit on 7-22-2004 by nyarlathotep]



[edit on 7-22-2004 by nyarlathotep]



posted on Jul, 22 2004 @ 02:01 AM
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nyarlathotep says


2nd edit: "There but for the grace of God go I"? No I haven't heard of this phrase before, please axplain it to me.


It is usually said in reference to seeing someone in a very unfortunate situation, such as homeless or physically handicapped. It is said as a reminder of God's grace in protecting us and keeping us from misfortune. It is also a reminder that, while we may claim some credit for our success and prosperity, something like losing a job because of a massive job layoff, or a car accident, could put us in the same situation as the unfortunate person before us.



posted on Jul, 22 2004 @ 06:20 AM
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Originally posted by Gools
What are some of those theories? Any examples? I would like to know more. Why does it have to be expanding? Why not in equilibrium? Nature works that way.


Hi gools,

I'm in the process of putting together a post on this.. It'll be a new thread i guess but it'll take a few days to get together.

Basically though, the reason tradition capitalism needs to keep expanding is because fundamentally investors want to get more out than they put in, other wise they don't invest. Since industrialisation, one of the most effective ways to do this has been through the mass production of "stuff" and selling it at a profit. As competition increases, profit margins fall, an we have to make and sell even more "stuff" to increase profits.

I know this isn't the full explanation you're looking for, but I promise I will expand on it in a few days or so. In the mean time I recommend the books The Future of Success, and Digital Aboriginal, which set me thinking about all this. These books are aimed more at the the individual level rather than macro economic level, so I'm going to try to figure that out myself.. Unfortunately the mundane task of earning a living is likely to keep my pretty busy over the next days, but watch this space!!

[edit on 22-7-2004 by muppet]



posted on Jul, 22 2004 @ 06:35 AM
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Class War at it's best! Behold the Evil Rich (as dracula organ music plays in the background). Define the term "rich" for me there, Marg. What exactly is wrong with being rich?



Ha, ha, ha, obviously you are not rich,

Rich, financially secure,

Wealthy, born into an inheritance, born with not need to ever work, old money financial ties to big corporations, the white corporate America.

Sorry made a mistake I should have said wealthy not rich, anybody can be rich, but to be wealthy you have to be born in it.



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