Defendant Convicted of Minting His Own Currency

reply to post by Xcathdra


Exactly.

If you're going to talk about the constitution, you should understand what's in it and how to interpret it.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Learn how to read my posts... some friendly advice.

I have a very deep understanding of the Constitution and the laws of this country. I don't need your 'lesson', I have already received it.

What you fail to understand is my point. Why is that? Could it be because this web site is full of people who only wish to troll and play devil's advocate without actually reading or putting any logic in to their argument? I think so. You fall in to that category, buddy.

Go have a read at my posts and try your hardest to understand what I am getting at. With all of your "knowledge", surely you will have no trouble.

reply to post by PETROLCOIN


Where's the argument?

If the constitution says that you cannot do something, then you face the consequences should you do it.

Originally posted by PETROLCOIN
35 other countries have the word "Dollar" in their currency and use the "$" symbol. What is the problem?

Umm... Because they're not in the U.S.? What this case goes on about isn't a copyright issue but rather one of counterfeit. Since the coins resemble the U.S. coins, they can be mistakenly used as legal tender.

“Attempts to undermine the legitimate currency of this country are simply a unique form of domestic terrorism,” U.S. Attorney Tompkins said in announcing the verdict.

ter·ror·ism
   /ˈtɛrəˌrɪzəm/ Show Spelled[ter-uh-riz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
1.
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2.
the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3.
a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.
4.
any threat to American sovereignty, like Al Qaeda, rednecks, or intelligent children.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

How about the part that says the fEderal Government shall be responsible for the minting of a currency?

Or maybe Article 1 section 8 of the Constitution....
Maybe Article 1 section 9 of the constution, where the word dollar is used?


How about 31 USC 331...............
and 31 USC 5112...

I did not read every word of those USCs, but it appears none of these texts state that citizens can not mint currency. These are just the regulations that must be followed for Congress et. al. to mint official USD currency. Please quote the text that outlines prohibition of private citizens minting currency.

Or we could look at 25 USC.... Feel free to take your pick of law in that section, as most of them cover what this guy did.

Title 25 of the United States Code outlines the role of Indians in the United States Code.

I can continue if you need more information on this topic.. Just let me know...

Please quote the text that outlines prohibition of private citizens minting currency.

The Berkshire region in Massachusetts has a local currency known as a BerkShare I believe. A comparison between the BerkShare and the currency created by the man who has been arrested would make for an interesting analysis. I may look in to this more tomorrow. Please quote the text that outlines prohibition of private citizens minting currency.

reply to post by The Sword


Nowhere in the US Constitution does it forbid the creating of a competing currency. Article I Section 8 Clause 6 mentions counterfeiting, but this man is not being convicted of counterfeiting. He has been convicted of competing with the USD.

As far as I can tell, he has been convicted of a legal activity. Please quote the text that outlines prohibition of private citizens minting currency.

Another link for this article:

www.mountainx.com...

reply to post by boncho


Counterfeiting is making a copy of a minted coin/paper bill isn't it? If it's his own design then from my layman's point of view I'm not seeing the problem.

I wonder what would happen if one were to create a private company, create a design, patent it and have at it using Silver or Gold what would happen. Sadly, I'm busy running my media empire in my attempt to be convicted of free speech to attempt it right now.

reply to post by PETROLCOIN


I would be more than happy to pit my education and career against yours any day of the week on this topic. While I agree that you most likely read the Constitution, something tells me you failed at part 2 of the task, which is to understand how it works.

You specifically stated:

Where in the Constitution does it say that citizens cannot coin their own money?

I gave you your answers, namely Article 1, section 8 and 9. I then directed you to Federal Statute that furthers defines how the monetary system for the US works, what can and cannot be done, and then directed you to what happens when curency is created that mimics offical US currency.

As I stated, I am more than willing to hand hold yuou through the entire process, explaining each and every step, from the Constitution, to FEderal body of Law, to the creation of the treasury department, the US Secret service, bringing you all the way to the present, with a few stops along the way with Federal Court cases and Supreme Court rulings that established criteria as well as case law.

However, I can't force a person to learn, so that decision is left up to you...

Learn how it works correctly, or continue to be ignoprant on this topic while making comments and accusations that reinforce the fact you have no concept of how the system works, while trying to lay the blame at the doorstep of the Government, which based on comments from you to date, you seem to have issues with.

As far as reading and understanding your posts, Yes, I read them and No, I have no diea where you get some of your infomration from that you use as the basis for your arguments.

As far as my response to your first post, which was "Where in the Constitution does it say that citizens cannot coin their own money?"

I refer you back to here: Defendant Convitced of Minting His Own Currency - Page 1 - Post #15

reply to post by JohnnyTHSeed


United States Constitution - Article 1

The Constitution of the United States of America provides that the United States Congress shall have the power "To coin Money".[14] Laws implementing this power are currently codified in Section 5112 of Title 31 of the United States Code. Section 5112 provides in which forms the United States dollars shall be issued.[15] Those coins are both designated in Section 5112 as "legal tender" in payment of debts.[15]

31 USC 331 - Money and Finance

31 USC 5112 - Denominations

The term dollar -

The word "dollar" is one of the words in the first paragraph of Section 9 of Article 1 of the U.S. Constitution[

-Section 9 - Limits on Congress

The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.

As far as US Code goes, I accidentally reversed it - my bad.

Its 18 USC 25- Which covers counterfetting

470. Counterfeit acts committed outside the United States.

471. Obligations or securities of United States.

472. Uttering counterfeit obligations or securities.

473. Dealing in counterfeit obligations or securities.

474. Plates, stones, or analog, digital, or electronic

images for counterfeiting obligations or securities.

474A. Deterrents to counterfeiting of obligations and

securities.

475. Imitating obligations or securities; advertisements.

476. Taking impressions of tools used for obligations or

securities.

477. Possessing or selling impressions of tools used for

obligations or securities.

478. Foreign obligations or securities.

479. Uttering counterfeit foreign obligations or

securities.

480. Possessing counterfeit foreign obligations or

securities.

481. Plates, stones, or analog, digital, or electronic

images for counterfeiting foreign obligations or

securities.

482. Foreign bank notes.

483. Uttering counterfeit foreign bank notes.

484. Connecting parts of different notes.

485. Coins or bars.

486. Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal.

487. Making or possessing counterfeit dies for coins.

488. Making or possessing counterfeit dies for foreign

coins.

489. Making or possessing likeness of coins.

490. Minor coins.

491. Tokens or paper used as money.

492. Forfeiture of counterfeit paraphernalia.

493. Bonds and obligations of certain lending agencies.

494. Contractors' bonds, bids, and public records.

495. Contracts, deeds, and powers of attorney.

496. Customs matters.

497. Letters patent.

498. Military or naval discharge certificates.

499. Military, naval, or official passes.

500. Money orders.

501. Postage stamps, postage meter stamps, and postal

cards.

502. Postage and revenue stamps of foreign governments.

503. Postmarking stamps.

504. Printing and filming of United States and foreign

obligations and securities.

505. Seals of courts; signatures of judges or court

officers.

506. Seals of departments or agencies.

507. Ship's papers.

508. Transportation requests of Government.

509. Possessing and making plates or stones for Government

transportation requests.

510. Forging endorsements on Treasury checks or bonds or

securities of the United States.

511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification

numbers.

511A. Unauthorized application of theft prevention decal or

device.

512. Forfeiture of certain motor vehicles and motor vehicle

parts.

513. Securities of the States and private entities.

514. Fictitious obligations.

Sorry 'bout that.


US Code Search Database

This whole debacle wouldn't even be necessary, if it wasn't for the FED R. diluting the currency to the point that people feel the need to create a gold and silver currency. Interestingly the final trigger to the FEDS taking action was the Ron Paul coins minted in Copper, Silver and Gold.

One thing the great American constitution did not take into account was the federal reserve rolling out fractional banking and creating money out of thin air.

And for those who are making the argument the Fed went after him for making a competeing currency, please read the entire article. This is in the first paragraph -

STATESVILLE, NC—Bernard von NotHaus, 67, was convicted today by a federal jury of making, possessing, and selling his own coins, announced Anne M. Tompkins, U.S. Attorney for the Western District of North Carolina. Following an eight-day trial and less than two hours of deliberation, von NotHaus, the founder and monetary architect of a currency known as the Liberty Dollar, was found guilty by a jury in Statesville, North Carolina, of making coins resembling and similar to United States coins; of issuing, passing, selling, and possessing Liberty Dollar coins; of issuing and passing Liberty Dollar coins intended for use as current money; and of conspiracy against the United States. The guilty verdict concluded an investigation which began in 2005 and involved the minting of Liberty Dollar coins with a current value of approximately $7 million. Joining the U.S. Attorney Anne M. Tompkins in making today’s announcement are Edward J. Montooth, Acting Special Agent in Charge of the FBI, Charlotte Division; Russell F. Nelson, Special Agent in Charge of the United States Secret Service, Charlotte Division; and Sheriff Van Duncan of the Buncombe County Sheriff’s Office.

* - Making, possessing and selling his own coins
* - Currency name - Liberty Dollar
* - Coin based on a valued commodity of Gold, Silver, Copper etc and assigned an equivelant US currency amount.
* - Issued / Passed off as current currency, which it is not

Liberty Dollar - Wikipeadia Overview with links

He violated counterfetiing laws. This is also not the first time a crime like this has been prosecuted. Phoenix Dollars also caused an issue..

Its not illegal to create an item to use for money / bartering. It IS illegal to misrepresent that item, assigning it equivelant legitimate currency values with the intent of passing the item off as valuable, insinuating the item can be used as a legal form of currency, etc etc etc.

As far as the argument the Fed went after for a competing currency, care to explain why a barter system works, why credit cards are allowed, and why we can use checks to purchase items?

None of those were the brain child of the US, and business is not required to use those as a valid form of payemnt for items or services rendered.

This seems to me to be more about the Federal Reserve than the coin. Lots of people, and organizations privately mint coins. They do this for commemorative purposes, and also for bartering.

I have replica Morgan dollars out the wazoo. They look identical to real Morgan dollars, but were minted in the 80s. Someone can mint silver coins that look identical to a US minted coin, but this guy cannot mint his coins?

What about these? All these have a fifty dollar denomination on the back. They are supposed to be for the time when silver hits 50 dollars an ounce. Each is minted by different groups in different places.
Free Lakota Bank
Border Currency
Free State Round
Full List of Currencies

This seems to be an attack for his role in challenging the Federal Reserve. Why are all these other groups allowed to distribute their coins? It seems his organization put a target on him. It is shame, but how the world works.

The whole argument about the Constitutional basis for his conviction misses the point. The Constitution is pretty much been eradicated. The US Code is full of laws that would be overturned by a judicial system that obeyed the Constitution. Nit picking through the USC just goes to show how it is illegitimate. If you say only Congress can mint money than the Fed deserves prosecution as much as that man.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
This whole debacle wouldn't even be necessary, if it wasn't for the FED R. diluting the currency to the point that people feel the need to create a gold and silver currency. Interestingly the final trigger to the FEDS taking action was the Ron Paul coins minted in Copper, Silver and Gold.

One thing the great American constitution did not take into account was the federal reserve rolling out fractional banking and creating money out of thin air.

You may find this thread intresting if you have not already found it -

ATS Thread - MSNBC - Banksters & Government Exposed FINALLY by Mainstream News

reply to post by stephinrazin


Uhm, the Morgan dollars were legitimate coinage during the end of the 1800's up till about the 1920s when the 4th coinage act was passed by Congress.

Morgan Dollar

In the early 1960s, a large quantity of uncirculated Morgan dollars was found to be available from Treasury vaults, including issues once thought rare. Individuals began purchasing large quantities of the pieces at face value, and eventually the Treasury ceased to exchange silver certificates for silver coin. Beginning in the 1970s, the Treasury conducted a sale of silver dollars minted at the Carson City Mint through the General Services Administration. In 2006, Morgan's reverse design was used on a silver dollar issued to commemorate the old San Francisco Mint building.

As far as the 1980's go -

Between November 1962 and March 1964, millions of Morgan and Peace dollars were sold to the general public.[33] Interest began in 1962, when a date of Morgan dollar that was previously considered very rare was discovered in a bag of silver dollars taken from a vault of the Philadelphia Mint.[33] The demand to exchange silver certificates for silver dollars was so great that lines formed outside of the Treasury Building in Washington, D.C., with some of those in line pushing wheelbarrows.[33] Upon discovering bags of Carson City-minted dollars, Treasury officials decided to hold them back as mintage totals from that mint were generally lower than others.[33]

On May 12, 1969, the Joint Commission on Coinage held a meeting in order to determine how best to dispose of the Carson City-minted dollars earlier held back by Treasury officials. They recommended a mail bid sale.[34] Legislation was passed on December 31, 1970 stating that the approximately three million silver dollars were to be transferred to Administrator of General Services in order for the coins to be marketed.[35] The legislation also stated that all proceeds from the sale were to be "covered into the Treasury as miscellaneous receipts."[35] Congress supplied the General Services Administration with ten million dollars to market the dollar coins.[34] Advertising consisted of posters and brochures distributed to post offices, banks and various financial institutions, as well as television documentaries.[34] The coins were sorted and put into small plastic display cases.[34] The Administration conducted a total of seven mail bid sales between 1972 and 1980.[34] In total, the sales generated $107 million.[34]

On June 15, 2006, legislation was approved that provided for the minting of a silver dollar and a five dollar gold coin in "commemoration of the Old Mint at San Francisco," with surcharges to be given to the San Francisco Museum and Historical Society in an effort to rehabilitate the Old Mint.[36] In total, 100,000 gold and 500,000 silver commemorative coins were authorized.[36] Authorization came at the behest of several hobby publications, who enlisted readers to contact their local congressmen in order to persuade them to pass necessary legislation.[37] The designs approved for the silver dollar bear a left-frontal view of the Old Mint building and a copy of Morgan's eagle design on the obverse and reverse, respectively.[38] Mint artist Joseph Menna made a new model for the reverse, employing a 1904 San Francisco-minted dollar as his model.[39]

There is a huge differnece between the Morgan Dollar and what the guy in the OP did.

The Free Lakota Bank is up front about what they are doing, and their coinage does not look like, nor is it passed off as actual currency in the manner the US Government rpescribes. It means anyone who purchases items from the Free Lakota Bank, or any of the other links you provided, has full knowledge of what they are buying, knowing full well its not legal currency under law, and that purchasing / investing in it does not mean its going to be accepted anywhere.

It has nothing to do with the FEd or Federal Govrnment going after people who make someonething that runs against legal US currency. It has to do with people making an item and passing it off as legal, exchangable with, etc etc currency.

In the most basic, its essentially fraud, theft by deceit, fraud by omission, conspiracy to defraud, etc etc etc.

Id you research the Free Lakota Bank, the Lakota Tribe has made it clear they are not associated with it. The term used was Caveat Emptor, which is appropriate.

USAToday - Communities printing their own currency
Daily Telegraph - Some US towns print their own money

As far as the comment about charging the Fed, the authority lies with Congress on how money is minted, and by whom. The US Congress delegated the authority to the FEderal REserve (and Yes, they need to go), as they are entitled to do by the Constitution. The FEd was just reauthorized I think for like another 14 years.. I need to find the info on it.. I am also curious to see if Ron Paul makes any ground for auditing them and revoking their license so to speak.

This is what I was looking for. I believe this to be one of the main codes this man is charged with violating:

18 U.S.C. § 486:

Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

Bolded emphasis mine.

However, if the people who are using this currency know that it is only considered valid money to use with the 70+ businesses that agreed to use it, I don't see how it is a violation. The bills are not marketed as "legal tender". I need a legal definition of "current money" as it is used in this USC though.

reply to post by JohnnyTHSeed


The release by the FBI, as well as the wiki page for the Liberty Dollar, suggests that the owner of the business suggested / passed his items off as something other than an investment.

All it takes is for one person to be mislead, to purchase the items and attempt tp use it or cash it in to cause a problem with the feds. Ill try to find the court transcript when it sperfected and filed so we can see what actually he was accused of and what eveidence was gathered and used against him.

The wiki page shows he was only convicted on 2 charges.. We all know how accurate wiki can be...

Anyways to me it looks like he did what he was accused and found guilty of, creating an item that resmbles, both in shape and name, legitimate US currency.

Here is some info for your legal tender question -

Article 1 - Section 10

Wikipedia - Legal Tender - United States
Legal Tender Act of 1862
Legall Tender Note Definition

The United States Supreme Court, with Salmon P. Chase (former Secretary of the Treasury) ruled the practice of legal tender unconstitutional in Hepburn V. Griswold in 1869, but later reversed its ruling within a month when confusion in the markets caused everybody not to accept "Legal Tender" note at all. The Court held that paper money, even that not backed by specie such as the United States Notes can be legal tender, in the Legal Tender Cases, ranging from 1871 to 1884.

TITLE 31 > SUBTITLE IV > CHAPTER 51 > SUBCHAPTER I > § 5103 - Legal Tender

United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts.

Legal Tender would be any currency (Coin / Paper Money) that is produced by the Congress of The United States. As far as the term current money goes, it appears to me money that has been authorized by Congress and is in the public for use. Eseentially, the money we currently use and see on a daily basis that is still in production - current money.

Originally posted by The Sword

Where's the argument?

If the constitution says that you cannot do something, then you face the consequences should you do it.

The irony in this statement is amazing.

Yes if the constitution says the people cannot do something look out, but if the government decides to bend or break those rules, it's OK.

Originally posted by PETROLCOIN

Originally posted by RedPill
This is unfortunate but he was asking for it my using the $ and the word "Dollar" on his currency.

35 other countries have the word "Dollar" in their currency and use the "$" symbol. What is the problem? Also, this man did nothing illegal.

Well, for the sake of argument, those countries also don't distribute their currency in the US as an alternative to US currency. So the comparison may not be apt.