Chemtrail Debunkers Misinformation Conspiracy

Originally posted by ImmortalIntegrity
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

Obviously you think all aviation professionals are involved with a chemtrail conspiracy.

Not all of them - just a very wide range, depending upon exactly which version of the theory you subscribe to.

all mainteannce engineers have to be part of it - because they crawl all over aircraft, they have access to the maintenance documents, at the least they would see "secret stuff" being taken off a/c and wonder what it was.

All pilots have ot be part of it, because according to some versions of the theory they turn the chemtrails on and off.

But, more practically, pilots calculate the weight and balance of their a/c before every flight - it affects their take-off speed and roll - the amount of runway they need. It affects the a/c's climb performance and cruise altitudes. Spraying something would require some weight to be shed, and they would have to know about it.

All regulatory inspection staff have to be part of it, because they can look king over the aircraft both in service and in heavy maintenance.

Alternatively to all of that, the "something" might be in the fuel - which would use existing systems (so nothing unusual for maintenance engineers to see) and would be accounted for in normal fuel burn calculations.

In which case all the engine design engineers would have to know about it so enure that it didn't screw up the fuel system and hot end of the engine - undesireable combustion products might have a seriously deleterious effect on turbines!

and of course there would ahve to be fuel company and possibly other chemists who designed the "something", someone who addis it to the fuel, and, since it would not meet the published specifications for fuel, any chemist who tested it against the published specification would have to be bought in on the plot.

But in that case you could go down to Mobil or BP or AeroShell and buy a gallon of Jet A1 and have it an alysed to tell us what that "something" is - no-one has manged to do that yet - perhaps yuo will be the 1st?

If you have any other variations of the theory I'll be happy to go through the thought exercise of who will need to be involved in it.

That is a bold claim

it is not one I made - you said I made it - not the same thing at all.

It is completely conceivable that some people actually understand aviation, meteorology and chemistry without being a "shill" for some vaguely articulated conspiracy, but I have never heard any of these people debunk the chemtrail conspiracy.

Sure you have. I debunk "chemtrails" and understand the basics needed to place questions of aviation, meteorolgy, and chemistry within the "chemtrail" conspiracy. I have seen very few "chemtrail" believers who understand enough about the atmosphere to make an informed opinion about how it rains, much less how and if something is being delivered into the atmosphere for nefarious reasons.
I find this whole thread, minus the people like me who are expressing similar opinions, insulting.
Surprise, some people actually enjoy learning real science without being in school, teaching, or having a job that requires that knowledge to be continually updated. I am one of those people. I'm an Indiana housewife. I have been married to the same man for almost 31 years. I have one son, and did not further my education because I wanted to be a full-time mother, and I raised a good son, so it was the right decision. I am a weather-watcher, and always have been. I can name cloudforms like some people can wildflowers or birds (I can do both of those as well. And animal tracks, fungus identification, tree identification........I happen to know a lot about a lot of fields). My hobbies are varied as well, and I'm good at all of them.....knitting, spinning, fly tying, cooking, baking.....all of which I enjoy a lot more than getting continually insulted at ATS.
So why do I debunk? Because it is just sadly stupid that so many people on YouTube (where I started debunking 2-3 years ago) did not know what they saw in the sky was a cloud. And it wasn't even a contrail, it was a cirrostratus undulatus cloud. Then they started in with "chemtrails" and how I needed to learn what was up. So I researched. Quite extensively. I found lots of information on both sides of the question. And the "chemtrail" side has no cohesion, no logic, no proof.....just pictures of contrails and clouds without any clue as to what "chem-" was being used and how to tell that any chemical was present in what they showed. And they still have never given any kind of reasonably rational, logically intelligent response to those two points.
Not once. And all debunkers have asked. If you don't like debunking of your opinions, perhaps you should strive to share your knowledge instead. Not your suspicions, your suppostions, your beliefs, your contentions.....show some actual pertinent facts that bolster your view. Or something we say that is wrong scientifically, not just something that goes against your beliefs. Debunk us. Or at least try.
But you don't and won't. You rely on calls for censorship (see Mat's previous posts). You continue to lie about us and our "jobs". You berate us every chance given you to do it. Why? Because we know more than you on a particular topic, or have formed an opinion of our own that is counter to your own. Thinking I am anything other than what I am (google me and you find I debunk "chemtrails", spin, knit, have dogs, cook and my religious choice), is an outright lie, insulting, and paranoid.
Get over it. If you want to believe in something and only research one side, you will continue to be biased and close-minded. But if you post here and most other conspiracy sites, you will be challenged to support your claims with something substantive. When you do, expect debunkers to apply critical thinking and research your sources. If you are wrong, expect us to tell you. Actually read the cites given you from my side of the debate. There won't be a lot of pictures, as pictures only show you can use a camera, and we understand that chemical content cannot be determined by picture or video anyway.
Who are you? I really do not care. If you have experience, you wouldn't be on the pro-"chemtrail" side. If you have knowledge, you do not offer it. If you have only a belief, well, expect a debate. I, and the other debunkers out there prefer to KNOW, not just believe.

Originally posted by ImmortalIntegrity
reply to post by DJW001

 

It is completely conceivable that some people actually understand aviation, meteorology and chemistry without being a "shill" for some vaguely articulated conspiracy, but I have never heard any of these people debunk the chemtrail conspiracy.

Perhaps you should ensure they are aware of it then? But even then there is no gaurantee that they will be interested in engaging on eth topic.

Although I obviously make a point of looking for chemtrail threads, for most people it is simply not somethign they are interested in - including most aviation professionals I know for example - they simply think it is a joke.

I also know a small handful of meteorology professionals who are also aviation professionals - and they think it is a joke too and have no particular interest in engaging in discussion about it.

Given the presumably small number of people who meet your strict criteria of being professionals in all 3 disiplines, and hte small % of anyone who is actualy interested in engaging on the topic, it seems unlikely you'er goign to get a large number of them to discuss it.

and their absence still wouldn't prove anything one way or the other any more than the comments of people who are professionals in the individual disciplines does.

I have been told to stop going against the grain. I will cease to think free and do what I am told. I must accept instructions and complete my mission.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


My bad, I meant support the "chemtrail" conspiracy. I must not have had my coffee yet.

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

My bad, I meant support the "chemtrail" conspiracy. I must not have had my coffee yet.

no - although I sympathise!

Edit: It's the way ATS attributes posts when you "quote" rather than "reply" - it links to the one that the one I was replying to was in reply to, not the one I was quoting - soz

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


Apparently I need more coffee. This statement:

Edit: It's the way ATS attributes posts when you "quote" rather than "reply" - it links to the one that the one I was replying to was in reply to, not the one I was quoting - soz

is as clear as mud.

Originally posted by ImmortalIntegrity
I have been told to stop going against the grain. I will cease to think free and do what I am told. I must accept instructions and complete my mission.

I got your back buddy these debunkers love to try and gang up on people. I suggest you send a U2U message to me the next time they try this.

All right,I am a skeptic. But...............Im not ignorant enough to believe someone telling me, "it isn't happening",as factual. Debating nefarious acts,perpetrated by governments,on its citizens,without them knowing would be silly also. Debunkers cant take that away. I dont believe in Chemtrails. Im not a pilot,or a prodigious savant. Just the average joe,who believes anything is possible if you look outside the box. Not all pilots say they have seen UFO's,but many have. No proof in little green men also. Or some fudged scientific data by leading global warming experts. Dont worry about Debunkers,they got their hands filled with checking the facts.

Atmospheric Aerosols: What Are They, and Why Are They So Important?

Aerosols are minute particles suspended in the atmosphere. When these particles are sufficiently large, we notice their presence as they scatter and absorb sunlight. Their scattering of sunlight can reduce visibility (haze) and redden sunrises and sunsets.

Aerosols interact both directly and indirectly with the Earth's radiation budget and climate. As a direct effect, the aerosols scatter sunlight directly back into space. As an indirect effect, aerosols in the lower atmosphere can modify the size of cloud particles, changing how the clouds reflect and absorb sunlight, thereby affecting the Earth's energy budget.

Aerosols also can act as sites for chemical reactions to take place (heterogeneous chemistry). The most significant of these reactions are those that lead to the destruction of stratospheric ozone. During winter in the polar regions, aerosols grow to form polar stratospheric clouds. The large surface areas of these cloud particles provide sites for chemical reactions to take place. These reactions lead to the formation of large amounts of reactive chlorine and, ultimately, to the destruction of ozone in the stratosphere. Evidence now exists that shows similar changes in stratospheric ozone concentrations occur after major volcanic eruptions, like Mt. Pinatubo in 1991, where tons of volcanic aerosols are blown into the atmosphere (Fig. 1).

www.nasa.gov...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ab296bf26c0a.gif[/atsimg]
Geo engineering techniques
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a0012ec508e8.jpg[/atsimg]

No little green men yet......But we do have little green rivers

Goldstream River
www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by ImmortalIntegrity
Hello ATS,

I have seen many topics concerning chemtrails and contrails but never the chemtrail debunkers themselves. I would like to propose that chemtrail debunkers are nothing more than government shills, shilling themselves to the point of ridicule. In the light of obvious evidence such as, patents (not only for the chemicals but the apparatus that sprays them), irrefutable video footage, side-by-side comparisons, and government admittance to geo-engineering, these people are either involved with the big business of making these thing or they are trying to provide misinformation as a means to cover-up.

Popular Debunkers:
# Committee for Skeptical Inquiry
# The Skeptics Society
# The National Institute of Standards and Technology
# Popular Mechanics
# Snopes
# SourceWatch
# www.nmsr.org...

I'm not allowed to comment on this subject sorry. I'm afraid to get a posting ban again.

reply to post by MathiasAndrew

Green rivers?
Yes. When kids screw around.
www.vancouversun.com...

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by MathiasAndrew

 

Green rivers?
Yes. When kids screw around.
www.vancouversun.com...

The green rivers was an off topic comment in reference to the little green men comment made by Sonny1

reply to post by MathiasAndrew


Please read the information you have supplied and try again. Nothing you show is about "chemtrails". Atmospheric aerosols are studied and it's not "chemtrails", it's mostly natural contributions. Like clouds, which are an aerosol. Smoke, volcanic ash, sand and dirt from all over....You really don't read a thing with comprehension, do you? If you had you wouldn't need to be told this every single "chemtrail" thread you post on. And before you point out the last picture has an airplane in it, please look and understand that all the methods described are not in practice, it's things being discussed and studied. Any assertion that "they" are already doing it will require proof.
So, please, save yourself some time and struggle and reread what you have supplied. Aerosol does not mean ''sprayed". Because something is an aerosol does not mean it was anthropogenic. Geo-engineering is something being discussed and studied, not implemented.
Your argument is baseless, and you do not seem to realize your error. Again.

For all the "chemtrail" believers and smart people who understand the atmosphere, there is a very interesting article in the April 2011 issue of Discover magazine that you all need to read and understand.
A source for all kinds of nasty aerosols like mercury, sulfates, ozone, black carbon, even flu viruses has been found. These aerosols are in such a large amount that they eventually circle the globe. They are anthropogenic. The total amount is thousands of tons, and it probably affects everyone on the planet, especially in the Northern hemisphere. The article finds the source and traces it to the US and beyond. They describe how they do the testing. All in all a really interesting and relevant article.
What is the source of all these nasties?

China

China is undergoing a major increase in industrialization with little or no emission controls. All of these pollutants cross the Pacific in the air currents and are deposited in the US and Canada, and many of them remain in the atmosphere long enough to circle the globe, so can be deposited anywhere. Over half the mercury deposited on the US is from this one source. It's not "chemtrails", it's ground-based industry from 1/2 way around the world.
Just like the debunkers keep saying......you can't make the leap that something found in a ground level test came from the exhaust plume of a plane. Most likely, it's ground-based. From China. And gives all the ground-level testing something else they need to exclude in order to be valid. Amazing isn't it.....the people who say science has an answer are right.

The article is titled "Ill Wind Blowing" by David Kirby and begins on page 57.

EDIT: I found the article online! So here's a link to make your research easier:
Ill Wind Blowing, Discover Magazine

reply to post by sonnny1


A chemtrail debunker with reason, thanks for that my friend. I was beginning to think your kind didn't exist. How do you feel about HAARP and geo-engineering? Possibly devious in your opinion?

Originally posted by stars15k
reply to post by MathiasAndrew

 

Please read the information you have supplied and try again. Nothing you show is about "chemtrails". Atmospheric aerosols are studied and it's not "chemtrails", it's mostly natural contributions. Like clouds, which are an aerosol. Smoke, volcanic ash, sand and dirt from all over....You really don't read a thing with comprehension, do you? If you had you wouldn't need to be told this every single "chemtrail" thread you post on. And before you point out the last picture has an airplane in it, please look and understand that all the methods described are not in practice, it's things being discussed and studied. Any assertion that "they" are already doing it will require proof.
So, please, save yourself some time and struggle and reread what you have supplied. Aerosol does not mean ''sprayed". Because something is an aerosol does not mean it was anthropogenic. Geo-engineering is something being discussed and studied, not implemented.
Your argument is baseless, and you do not seem to realize your error. Again.

Starz15k why don't YOU try again. You really haven't impressed me very much with your debunking skill or your personal knowledge of the issues being discussed. You just pretend to posses knowledge and then go run for help when questioned. You never answer a single question that is presented to you.

Your childish insults are really quite petty and annoying. Who the heck do you think you are? You're actually a complete joke to me ok. I know what aerosols are and I don't really want to get into trading insults with you so don't try and insult my intelligence again just because you don't understand what I have said. Your entire statement is baseless. You have taken bits and pieces of the whole chemtrail issue and tried to imply that I have stated certain things when in all actuality I have not.

You have no idea whether they have or have not implemented Geo engineering techniques. How would you know? You're too busy counting how many U-tube videos on chemtrails get posted everyday. I find it funny how you discredit everything before even looking at it and then have the nerve to tell me to go read something. How much time do you spend on U-tube and how much time do you spend reading? Don't play cute with me ok Miss Piggy..

Your personal attacks towards me have been disregarded thus far but I suggest you check your attitude at the door next time. You went there first so I think it's only fair that I reply to your insults. You wanna know something your avatar really does suit you well though. Speaks volumes about your character. Don't forget I have seen your U-tube videos. You're really not the sharpest tool in the shed in my opinion, but that is neither here nor there. You seem to think you're so smart when all I have seen is you being a smart azzzzzz. Have a nice day ok.

Originally posted by ImmortalIntegrity
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

Obviously you think all aviation professionals are involved with a chemtrail conspiracy. That is a bold claim.

edit on 21-3-2011 by ImmortalIntegrity because: -5

Sorry, what I meant to say here was, "Obviously you must think all aviation professionals are required to be involved with a chemtrail conspiracy if a few of them choose to be." That is a bold claim.

reply to post by ImmortalIntegrity

Why do you keep bringing up HAARP in a chemtrail debunker thread?
There are plenty of HAARP threads around, why not add your opinion to some of them?
This one has heaps of good information in it.

Originally posted by epicfail
reply to post by ImmortalIntegrity

 

this is a silly idea. The debunkers don't go around telling the chemtrail believers that they are all paranoid do they? I am sure a lot of them are just misinformed.

Seriously? And someone gave you a star for that? That is one of the most completely ridiculous statements I have been faced with in this thread so far. You would probably help more by not saying anything.

It really doesn't help that there are mixed opinions on what a chemtrail consists of. Some would say geo-engineering metals are not chemtrails but I strongly disagree. Anything that is not a contrail is a chemtrail, and chemtrails should not be there unless we have documented reasons why it is there and what it consists of.