Solutions to assist Japan. FROM OUT OF BOX THINKERS., page 11


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reply posted on 19-3-2011 @ 08:12 PM by Wertwog
reply to post by aCurious1


It took 400,000 people to build the sarcophagus around Chernobyl. It was supposed to last for 50 years and it's only been 25 and needs replacing. Thousands became ill and some died building it. You have to wait until the site is cool enough not to burn through the concrete. Also consider....

Whatever we do has to be:

1. Seismically indestructible
2. Tsunami proof
3. Typhoon proof
4. Terrorist proof
5. Won't allow the cores to enter the water through the ground
6. Proves containment for the radiation
7. Will not decay due to heat or radiation for a reasonable period of time

The site is also physically much bigger than Chernobyl.

edit on 19-3-2011 by Wertwog because: another idea added
edit on 19-3-2011 by Wertwog because: spelling mistake




reply posted on 20-3-2011 @ 02:31 PM by woghd
Originally posted by aaa2500
Originally posted by woghd
A controlled nuke fits the requirement, but if that seems too drastic, there may be other avenues. I can't remember who said it, but another tsunami might be just the ticket. Whatever is done, it will have to be on that kind of scale.


The objective at this point is to preserve and support the remains of the reactor, because the further degredation of the core and it's containment-vessel will cause an environmental disaster and make controlling other reactors on the power plant impossible. How is that purpose achieved by using a 'controlled nuke'?

A 'nuke' is not a solution to every problem that plagues mankind.


You need to understand that the reactor(s) are *gone*. Forget about them. They are wasted. Nothing is going to be preserved. We are presently dealing with an uncontrolled series of meltdowns. They may take 200 years or more spewing radiation because these bars cannot be removed. Vaporizing the entire complex will stop this reaction as the particles of plutonium are separated. All that 200 years potential radiation will be neutralized. This amount is thousands of times more than what will be released from a small field-level nuke. Try to understand that the nuke will not ignite the rods or anything like that, it's impossible. What it will do is vaporize them and separate and destroy the molecules. Yes there will be fallout, but there is fallout anyway and by controlling the nuke, we can control where the fallout lands. In other words we can make sure that it goes where it will do no harm.


reply posted on 22-3-2011 @ 03:23 PM by aaa2500
Originally posted by woghd
You need to understand that the reactor(s) are *gone*. Forget about them. They are wasted. Nothing is going to be preserved.


The reactors are not gone. 3 reactors have melted down, one containment vessel has a leak and 4 reactors spent fuel rods are melting. The key is to contain the reactors and the spent fuel. meltdown and containment is preferable to radiactive material being spread.


We are presently dealing with an uncontrolled series of meltdowns. They may take 200 years or more spewing radiation because these bars cannot be removed.


You don't need to remove them, you simply need to contain them like what was done at Chernobyl. the core won't actually continue down through the ground for more than 10-15 feet, before it disperses into many smaller puddles and start to cool... There will be damage to the environment and nearby water will be contaminated, but the radioactive material will be contained.


Vaporizing the entire complex will stop this reaction as the particles of plutonium are separated. All that 200 years potential radiation will be neutralized.


You are saying that several thousands of tons of highly enriched uranium can be blown up and simply disappear.


This amount is thousands of times more than what will be released from a small field-level nuke. Try to understand that the nuke will not ignite the rods or anything like that, it's impossible. What it will do is vaporize them and separate and destroy the molecules.


Except that is not how it works. Thousands of tons of radioactive material being burnt at high pressure and high temperature, water being sucked up into the mix and and then hundreds of tons of highly radioactive particles and water falling on the whole of japan, some of china and south Korea, and then reaching the jetstream... Great plan.


Yes there will be fallout, but there is fallout anyway and by controlling the nuke, we can control where the fallout lands. In other words we can make sure that it goes where it will do no harm.


You can't control anything that has to do with weather. The fact that the fallout will be 10-20 times Chernobyl and the atomic detonation will ensure that the fallout reaches the upper athmosphere, means that you don't get to control it. You can hope that some of it disperses it into the pacific, but other than that it's just stupidity. It doesn't matter where it lands, it will always do harm, regardless of where it lands, and for many generations. Even if the atomic detonation is so small that the radioactive material doesn't reach the upper athmosphere, it will still fall over the immediate area and an area several thousands of kilometres across.
edit on 22-3-2011 by aaa2500 because: (no reason given)


reply posted on 22-3-2011 @ 11:34 PM by kukla
Preface: I apologize if I'm repeating anyone, I did not scan the full thread..

1. International relief efforts must be increased by several orders of magnitude. The Japanese Government is overwhelmed, which is putting us all in jeopardy.

2. Fire Tepco. If anything in the past week has scared me, it's the total lack of urgency from Tepco officials. A report last week indicated that they were actually ready to abandon the site last and it wasn't until the PM said NO, you get in there and get a handle on this now.. did the Fukushima 50(200) get formed. And now there's this indication that they may just try and contract this thing out..

www.babcock.com...

That is not acceptable. I don't want to get sidetracked by B&W, although there is plenty of research material in that dark corner. The basic problem is, B&W is not going to sense any more urgency than Tepco is currently displaying. If anything, it could worsen the situation. They don't even have any operations in Japan.

3. Foreign intervention. I have a feeling that the President has already informed the Japanese that this is a situation that transcends sovereignty to such a degree that it must cooperate in anyway possible. It was reported on 3/13 or 3/14 (I'm without this link atm, apologies), that the Japanese government had first denied the DOD airspace access to for the GlobalHawk and other UAVs. I would be willing to speculate that that the President immediately intervened and pretty much told the PM that we're going to do whatever we feel is appropriate. It was a few days later at the congressional hearing that the NRC guy basically admitted that they can now "see" inside the building with their sensor technology and he believes the pool is cracked. (again without easy link, getting tired, sorry)

To carry the response mandate, an international consortium should be established. We cannot leave this matter primarily in the hands of a private corporation, and an overwhelmed government. This puts not only Japan and its neighbors in great danger, but possibly the entire Northern Hemisphere. If Tepco continues to doodle around with fire trucks and mobile cement pumps.. the total amount of Cs-137 that will accumulate in the atmosphere could easily eclipse that of Chernobyl. The SFP require 130 tons of water. They're delivering something like 10 tons a day..? The math doesn't work.

3. Establish an international registry for plant volunteers.

It took more than 600,000 Russians to get Chernobyl to a point at which they could safely construct the sarcophagus. And according to this German article that quotes an apparent source at Fukushima, they're talking about 10 years of work to correct everything at the site.

www.welt.de...

Google translation: "The disposal of the reactors, according to an expert could take up to ten years. The newspaper "Asahi Shimbun" refers back to an informant of the nuclear power plant operator Tepco."

This is a situation that requires massive amounts of labor and an effective organizing body. I don't see either happening and the situation grows more dire with every passing day. Establishing a volunteer brigade should be happening NOW. I'm sure that even if this was to happen, there will not be enough volunteers to cover all the work. How to cover that gap.. TBD.

4. Establish local desalinization facilities ASAP. There are mobile installations that could be onsite in a week. Between grid power and the 10 truck-mounted turbines that GE is sending, there should be enough power to run these facilities. Although I think under the circumstances, GE could send a few more than 10..? Anyways.. the continued use of seawater is going to complicate work at the site. This has been widely discussed and I'll try and save some space by skipping these details.

5. Utilize the existing infrastructure. This next part is not me but Namida Ame may have come up with an innovative plan that seems much more appropriate that what's currently being used. I think the main idea needs a bit of tweaking but she's onto something. To summarize; if you haven't noticed in the site photos, there are large lattice tower nearby. By way of helicopter, she proposes to establish enormous water cannons on top of these towers. Assisted by large pumps on the ground, an autonomous flow of water can better directed from a point above the reactor and pools.

jltt.de...

To optimize this solution, I think it would be best to establish mixing tanks at the bottom, of sufficient size to support the cannon's rated output, and mix boric acid with freshly desalinized water.

5. One things are cool enough, the rod removal and entombing process can begin. The reactor vessels and spent fuel rods will need to be entombed temporarily before removal. This option may not be feasible but I'll put it out there anyways. I believe the answer again lies with the lattice towers. The water cannons could be replaced with shotcrete guns. Entomb the rods in shotcrete of a thickness that would withstand the temperatures long enough to remove and transport the rods to a new facility to be erected close by. This new facility should be equipped to handle the rods and vessels and prepare them for a more rugged entombing.

6. Ultimate disposal/storage of the rods and core.. TBD
edit on 22-3-2011 by kukla because: formatting
edit on 22-3-2011 by kukla because: formatting



reply posted on 24-3-2011 @ 07:18 PM by woghd
Originally posted by aaa2500
Originally posted by woghd
You need to understand that the reactor(s) are *gone*. Forget about them. They are wasted. Nothing is going to be preserved.


The reactors are not gone. 3 reactors have melted down, one containment vessel has a leak and 4 reactors spent fuel rods are melting. The key is to contain the reactors and the spent fuel. meltdown and containment is preferable to radiactive material being spread.

Duh. Yes contain them if they can be contained, but apparently they CANNOT! Time for plan B? The outside of the box plan?

Originally posted by aaa2500

We are presently dealing with an uncontrolled series of meltdowns. They may take 200 years or more spewing radiation because these bars cannot be removed.


You don't need to remove them, you simply need to contain them like what was done at Chernobyl. the core won't actually continue down through the ground for more than 10-15 feet, before it disperses into many smaller puddles and start to cool... There will be damage to the environment and nearby water will be contaminated, but the radioactive material will be contained.

Again, contained HOW? If they could be contained, this thread would not exist. You do not seem to have a plan for what to do if they cannot be contained.

Originally posted by aaa2500

Vaporizing the entire complex will stop this reaction as the particles of plutonium are separated. All that 200 years potential radiation will be neutralized.


You are saying that several thousands of tons of highly enriched uranium can be blown up and simply disappear.

No, I said no such thing. I said that the fallout can be placed intentionally where ever we want it, provided we control the explosion.

Originally posted by aaa2500

This amount is thousands of times more than what will be released from a small field-level nuke. Try to understand that the nuke will not ignite the rods or anything like that, it's impossible. What it will do is vaporize them and separate and destroy the molecules.


Except that is not how it works. Thousands of tons of radioactive material being burnt at high pressure and high temperature, water being sucked up into the mix and and then hundreds of tons of highly radioactive particles and water falling on the whole of japan, some of china and south Korea, and then reaching the jetstream... Great plan.

Um no...by controlling the detonation, we can make sure the fallout lands where it will do no harm, bikini atoll, wherever.

Originally posted by aaa2500

Yes there will be fallout, but there is fallout anyway and by controlling the nuke, we can control where the fallout lands. In other words we can make sure that it goes where it will do no harm.


You can't control anything that has to do with weather. The fact that the fallout will be 10-20 times Chernobyl and the atomic detonation will ensure that the fallout reaches the upper athmosphere, means that you don't get to control it. You can hope that some of it disperses it into the pacific, but other than that it's just stupidity. It doesn't matter where it lands, it will always do harm, regardless of where it lands, and for many generations. Even if the atomic detonation is so small that the radioactive material doesn't reach the upper athmosphere, it will still fall over the immediate area and an area several thousands of kilometres across.
edit on 22-3-2011 by aaa2500 because: (no reason given)


We control all sorts of things with the weather, what are you talking about? By knowing where the jetstream is, and what altitude it is at on any given day, and by controlling the size and shape of the explosion, we can place the fallout wherever we like. Cloud seeders and weather researchers use these techniques all the time. We can control the fallout cloud, just like a demolitionist controls a building implosion.


reply posted on 29-3-2011 @ 03:25 PM by Ophiuchus 13
reply to post by Khaaaaaan!!


Khaaaaaan!! When I seen them using simular devices I thought about your idea and wondered if they ARE listening. Good 1 my friend

Ok now the issue is the water leakage. Is it possible to freeze the land and water around this area preventing as much rad. as possible from entering ground water and sea water. Also maybe a large tarp of some sort may help prevent some air contamination as well.

Thank you ALL for the data you have been posting as posted some ideas seem to be consciously making over there so if any others wish to add feel free.....


reply posted on 1-4-2011 @ 10:37 PM by woghd
Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13
reply to post by Khaaaaaan!!

Is it possible to freeze the land and water around this area preventing as much rad. as possible from entering ground water and sea water.


I think that if they could do that, they would just freeze the reactors (or cool them), no that water is voiling when it come out, no way. This thing is going to leak radioactivity for hundreds of years if they don't stop the reaction. I still think they will end up nuking it. If they would have used a small field nuke in the first place, I doubt if there would be any more radioactivity than they have already...and certainly not what will be spewed out over the next year or ten or hundred.
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