Questions the Skeptics, Media and Government(s) Can’t Answer.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Thanks for the beginning of a great thread AGAIN, Traveler! F&S with oak leaf clusters.

It's hard to do a cause and effect study backwards to ascertain culpability sometimes...
except our learned scholars and trusted government are so backward to begin with, the
effect is so predictable for the standard motives. This multidimensional farce has pro-
gressed to the point the guys running it actually believe their own buffalo chips.

I always wondered why a lot of reactors were constructed on or near fault lines. That's
like putting your favorite turntable and some great classical next to a railroad track.
Sooner or later, ... it's like putting the Tulane Level 4 biolab 8 feet below sea level.
Smart like a sack of drowned mice, unless you'd like to create an accident on purpose.

Just in case anyone thinks they can trust the government's word on anything, I present Exhibit A:

EPA Misled Public on 9/11 Pollution
White House ordered false assurances on air quality, report says
by Laurie Garrett
 
NEW YORK -- In the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, attack on the World Trade Center, the White House instructed the Environmental Protection Agency to give the public misleading information, telling New Yorkers it was safe to breathe when reliable information on air quality was not available.

That finding is included in a report released Friday by the Office of the Inspector General of the EPA. It noted that some of the agency's news releases in the weeks after the attack were softened before being released to the public: Reassuring information was added, while cautionary information was deleted.

"When the EPA made a September 18 announcement that the air was 'safe' to breathe, it did not have sufficient data and analyses to make such a blanket statement," the report says. "Furthermore, the White House Council on Environmental Quality influenced . . . the information that EPA communicated to the public through its early press releases when it convinced EPA to add reassuring statements and delete cautionary ones."

www.commondreams.org...

Not to mention a few other minor problems with the official 9/11 story...

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

You know sometimes you cant really put your finger on what they are trying to accomplish, but you just know you are being led propaganda wise.

Come on, illusionsaregrander. You call yourself a philosopher; can't you see the flaw in this kind of thinking?

It is based on the a priori assumption that there is an ongoing, successful conspiracy of powers who run the world and control the media. Can you prove that assumption? Do you have solid evidence for it – evidence that is real and unambiguous, not circumstantial and open to interpretation?

I'm not asking for evidence of this or that conspiracy; clearly there have been conspiracies against the public enow. I am asking for evidence of a single, overarching conspiracy, deployed via the media and various institutions of state around the world, against the general public or, if you prefer, the human race. Because that is what you are describing.

You had better have evidence for this conspiracy at hand, otherwise you had better stop calling yourself a philosopher, and start describing yourself as a fantasist instead.

Frankly, I am surprised and disappointed to find you in this kind of company.

Not everyone has the technical expertise you do, but the majority of us sense that we are being lied to or manipulated in some way regarding this nuclear thing.

Paranoiacs feel that way, too.

reply to post by meathed


Because they are old stock fallout shelter suits from when ever the place was build and stocked. They had to do a full scrub down to enter the shelter and burned all belongings.

I don't know but sounds good.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


ProtoplasmicTraveler, I think you have really summed up the feelings of a great many ATS members with this one. Good work.

I live in Beijing and when I am watching the talking drones and the obligatory experts yakking, yakking, endlessly yakking (but saying nothing) I literally want to hurl blunt objects at my TV screen.

I'm sure you will recall that famous end scene from Planet Of The Apes: Chuck Heston dismounts his horse, crumbles to the beach and mutters (as only Chuck could do) "You blew it all up...you really did it...damn you.......!"

Well, I think this is Japan's Planet Of The Apes moment.

Yes, Japan and the people of Japan will bounce back.

But there will be something about Japan, about the "idea" of Japan, that will never bounce back.

reply to post by jesiaha


There was an old document floating around the net years back that claimed that the Russians dropped plans to send a man to the moon after realizing it was impossible to survive radiation. Never confirmed. They did put two nuclear reactor powered rovers on the moon which proves they had the power to get there.

I will tell you right now and up front why it feels like the media is not showing the full picture, because we're not getting &#%^ for info on this ourselves. Everything anyone credible is telling us on this, we are reporting. However we are not getting the full picture ourselves and it is beyond infuriating for us.

The public sometimes seems to ascribe almost mythical powers of information gathering upon the press. We must know the whole story, because well we are the ones that tell you the story. This is hardly ever the case. We cannot tell you what we do not know, and when we get snowballed or railroaded we've got nothing.

TEPCO and the Japanese government have been horrible on telling anyone what is going on in the nuclear crisis. We in the media are trained to know when something is amiss in the story, and if you watch anyone, BBC, CNN, Al-Jazeera, CBC, anyone, you can see the anger in their reporters on this.

Our Japanese comrades over at NHK seem to be taking this all from the "don't panic the people, encourage unity" angle, but the rest of us frankly are way too scared to walk lock-step with TEPCO and way too honorable to tell our viewers to do that either.

The United States government has been an amazing help, we've learned of a lot of the worst of it from them. The US has assets that paint a broader picture, but it's still not a complete one. They have their satellites, but these are more designed for picking up North Korean or Chinese nuclear weapons tests than accidents. They have their navy ships, but the sensors on them only go so far. We have experts, professors, scientists, engineers that we can get analysis from at the drop of a hat on any facts or data we can scrounge up.

That data though, it isn't available to us in the quantity we need to show the whole picture. TEPCO will say something like "progress is continuing" and we'll ask them a million pointed and direct questions, but they just repeat it over "progress is continuing."

It is maddening not to be able to get answers, especially when billions of people are counting on us in the media to relay them.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Have you read the patents on HAARP when you aren't too busy watching the Main Stream Barbie and Ken Dolls bounce their coifed heads up and down in unison as they throw in one emotional cue and body language suggestion after another to go with the fluff and non-answers and rediculous editorialized spins they spew like brainless zombies?

Some of us who don't live in Vacation Bible School Land actually know what's really going on in the world.

Is that the best you can do in reply to a challenge? Bloviate like a puffer fish?

Your sad, synthetic outrage cannot conceal the fact that you obviously know nothing at all about HAARP, you cannot answer the question that was put to you and you haven't the faintest thread of a suspicion of evidence to justify your absurd, stupid contention that the Japan earthquake and tsunami were artificially caused. Which anyone but a mind-scrambled nutcase without any respect for the victims of this tragedy knows it was not.

Your thread is revolting. It is a vile affront to the thousands who died, and to those who are doing all that is in their power to prevent more lives being lost or ruined.

*

reply to post by vox2442

I'm going to be completely honest here: it's extremely hard for me to read through ATS at this point. I lost friends in the tsunami. There's a hell of a lot of posts that make me want to deactivate my account at the very least, and it's been very difficult to restrain myself from firing my keyboard through the window in just about every thread I've read.

This thread makes me want to throw up, too. But take heart. These whinging, squawking Chicken Littles do not represent the bulk of humanity. They are forever going on about imagined conspiracies, yet few of them will lift a finger to do anything that will make the world a better place. Living in the world's richest and safest societies, raised in completely artificial environments, coddled and spoilt rotten with overindulgence in toxic trash (which they consume of their own free will and then blame 'the powers that be' for tempting them with it), they are nothing but empty vessels, resounding volumes of stupidity, ignorance and selfishness.

Most people are not like that. Sensible people, who know how the world works and have no truck with stupid conspiracy theories, will continue to do whatever needs to be done to save lives and keep the world turning.

Kudos to you and SirMike, as well as a few others, for trying to keep a grip on sanity in the midst of this yammering festival of idiocy. Try to remember that the human race is not, by and large, composed of Above Top Secret members, and that even amongst that number there are a few real human beings.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Don't worry. Ann Coulter says radiation is good for you ... Why are insane people allowed on national TV?

www.alan.com...

reply to post by utsaME

Well, off-topic but last year NASA was planning to send monkeys into space to study cosmic radiation hazards. After they spent almost $10 billion developing the new Orion lunar rocket, the National Research Council said NASA doesn't understand the risks of space radiation and revealed they were using old data from Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bomb survivors as the basis for their research...

NRC to NASA: Don’t Lower Radiation Standards for Lunar Missions
March 31, 2008, at 12:38 pm

In a potential blow to NASA’s human spaceflight efforts, the National Research Council released a report today calling on the space agency to conduct more research on cosmic radiation before sending astronauts to the moon and Mars. NASA should not lower its radiation exposure standards to reach these goals.

The Committee on the Evaluation of Radiation Shielding for Space Exploration’s report said the “lack of knowledge about the biological effects of and responses to space radiation is the single most important factor limiting prediction of radiation risk associated with human space exploration.”

As a result, prolonged operations on the moon could be curtailed. Mars exploration, which would require long transit times and stays on the the surface, could be ruled out entirely until scientists and engineers develop better ways of protecting astronauts.

The committee’s chairman, James van Hoften, told Reuters that NASA doesn’t fully understand the radiation risk, nor is the agency adequately funding research into how to properly protect astronauts. NASA is using old data, including research done on Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bomb survivors.

www.parabolicarc.com...

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by kosmicjack

 

The US Military has a massive airlift transport capability where they can get 100's of tanks, APV's, Howitzers, Humvees anywhere in the world within 24 hours.

I don't know where your getting your facts from - but I can tell you that there are International Military forces here in Japan and off the coast -

There are numberous US Military bases (Navy, Army, and Marines) helping out the Japanese citizenry. The USS Ronald Reagan and her entire strike group (of which I am an active duty member and posting from this very moment) are sitting off the coast of Japan, directly in harms way - rendering aid to the Japanese. As a matter of fact, just tonight our ship (The USS Ronald Reagan) donated upwards 2500 hundreded items of clothing and other materials to support our Japanese friends who are in need.

Great Britain has ships out here as well, doing what they can to help stave off disaster. The Japenese military is doing everything in its power to rescue their citizenry and stave off disaster by assisting TEPCO in anyway they can.

And thats just what I've seen, personnally.

So lets be honest the materials needed to entomb this plant have never been collected and stored in one place for an emergency even though 1 our of every 4 nuclear plants in the world uses this design?

It's almost like they built these things to use as dirty bombs themselves!

How could the industry itself and the governments be so incompetent?

No wonder they have no choice but to put this rediculous and dangerous show on for us that the situation is not 'serious' because in reality it's so serious that the governments of the world have so endangered our safety with no safeguards that they really all ought to be brought up on criminal charges.

You obviously haven't taken the time to learn about Nuclear Reactor technology. You can't simply 'encase' the entire Reactor and just hope the reactivity goes away. To do so would require an entire encasing in LEAD - the only material sutiable to block gamma radiation and x-rays. Secondly, you have to completely encase the reactor in a cube of lead - particulariy the bottom and top - to prevent contamination of the air and ground water. How do you propose we get that amount of lead on the bottom of an already built reactor?

Thirdly, the reactors aren't running anymore. AFAIK they began to shut them down as soon as the earthquake happened. What is happening is called "Decay Heat" and its the radiant heat of the fissioned material that is causing core reactor damage (due to the cooling pumps not functioning). It takes days if not weeks for Decay Heat to subside. That is why they are talking about the fuel rod pools (because the fuel rods are still cooling off). Think of a reactor like a hot, burning piece of charcoal that is on fire. Now shut off the reactor, and the flame on the charcoal goes out. But the charcoal (when heated sufficiently) still glows red and is very hot. The same applies to the reactor only on a much larger scale.

The issue lies in that the fuel rods are still hot - they need to be cooled - but cannot be cooled in the reactor core because the cooling pumps do not work. They were forced to remove the fuel rods, put them outside (and expose them to air, hence the radiation spillage) and then cool them.

If a partial meltdown HAS occured (which I'm not ruling out) then the hot fuel rod material has begun to melt and turn into radiatioactive corium...which is VERY bad. This would explain why they are continuing to try and cool the reactors as well as the fuel rod pools.

Things like this happen when natural disasters occur. Many Governments around the world are doing everything we can to help the Japanese in need. I for one am a bit offended by your comments as I am, technically, a government worker and I am directly in harms way helping the Japenese in their time of need.

reply to post by Astyanax

Wow,
I've been reading your posts,
You sound intelligent, but then you lose me when you sound like you know it all.
Your surety, I've seen countless times, lead many to a false hope and security.
Better to always leave the door to question cracked alittle bit, and leave the sharpened insults out with the garbage where they belong.
Asking for proof without providing proof is a ghost just the same.

reply to post by kosmicjack


They don't want people to panic, which could bring the worse economic disaster than the nuclear melt down itself. Same with the approaching brown dwarf.

Originally posted by nonapologetic
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

I thought it wasn't so much the reactors that where getting seawater but the spent fuel rods that where. For some reason the spent rods where being stored in a thing kind of like a pond, and due to the power shutting off water must be brought in to cool these. The question I want to know is; why did they store these dangerous materials on site?

I'm sure I read somewhere that there are 600 000!!!! "spent" fuel rods stored in the cooling pools on site and that the water had boiled away in 2 of them, nuclear energy is only "cheap" if we take out some of the costs ie waste storage, disaster management and PR just like oil is only "cheap" if we take away the costs of wars and security for pipelines and of course GOM in mind the costs of cleaning up when disaster strikes.

Why are we directed to keep on using these "cheap" forms of energy generation????

Dear friend,
Again a nice post, although this time I think it was somewhat lacking your usual analytical and studied mind. It was a bit bereft I feel. Good, yes... awesome no. Not your usual calibre Sir!

That being said, you state what pretty much all of us are thinking. I did not, I admit, take the time to read all through every single post since the beginning, I simply do not have the time. I am sorry for that.

What I felt needed to be raised and may have, is why are they not using the same technology that is used to dose fires such as those seen in Australia. I am talking about the huge gulping airplanes that fly down and scoop massive amounts of lake or sea water. A helicopter with a smallish bucket underneath feels like an arrow compared to a cannon to me.

I thought about this last night and wondered why they hadn't contemplated this. The amounts of liquid are vast and could be dropped from a "safe" height and I feel far far more effective.

Regards,
T

reply to post by meathed

Because NASA lies?

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I am electrical engineer and IMHO this is so hard to repair the damaged generators. of course they have to open the generator shell , bring out the whole rotor fix the shaft of the generators ( it has a long shaft and all the curvatures should be fixed ) it takes one or two month to fix it in a normal condition. ( just the rotor ) the core must be installed and the stator must be fixed in it's right place too. it will of course take more than one or two weeks because it is down slowly. it is just about electrical system and just the generator and I am taking the problem so easy.

and notice that Japanese people think of the cost and they compare the results for trade off . on one side : repairable Station but injured people on the other side entombed station and more healthy people ( Japanese people). it is the decision they are going to make.

how do you expect the people who evacuated those power stations 48 hours before the incident come back and risk their life to fix this problem ?

the Japanese gov doesn't care , the US G doesn't care , the media doesn't care about their people , it is only you that have to care and do some thing for your health ( and your family). I don't have any solution to offer but I know that the media is the last loop of the chain of lies and betrayals .

I think that you know the answers yourself but you are trying to make ATS member be more conscious for some more hours.

thank you . I appreciate your efforts and I try to stay on the line.

the diss-info and miss-info is showing itself in the world 1ce again.

Originally posted by Astyanax

Is that the best you can do in reply to a challenge? Bloviate like a puffer fish?

Proto's words were not a challenge, my confrontationally inclined friend. He was stating the obvious fact that you believe the official storyline concerning what is happening in Japan, while many of us do not. This was, and still is, no different than what happens when someone mentions 911.

The gloves come off. Insults start to fly, and the argument turns into "what you say is offensive to the people who are suffering in Japan".

In logic that would be called argument ad hominem and a non sequitur, but I am sure a person of your mental caliber already knew the flaws in your approach, yet allowed them to stay, well... because of the nice adrenaline rush it gives you to read your own words.

I don't mind when people read a few posts or simply the OP and just chime in, but not when it is to insult the OP or anyone that supports the premise of the thread, because if you had actually read the thread, then you would had read the interchange between Proto and I, which mainly concerned the victims.

I am sure that you will engage in some witty retort as to why that doesn't really matter relative to the premise of your comment to which I am commenting.

I will go ahead and say it for you.

Questioning the government's actions and the supply of information that we are being fed is as American as baseball and apple pie.

Yes, sure, the 911 crime scene disaster is totally safe. Nothing is wrong with the air. The government tested it. Go ahead aid workers. Heroes. Go in and forever martyr yourself because some rich businessman doesn't have the cajones to be honest or create a business with disasters like this in mind.
Don't blame the greedy, power hungry, money trust that governs the world through manipulation of currency. Let's feel bad for a little while about all the victims. Then let's cheer the heroes/kamikazes trying to save all of the other people that are going to fracking die anyway from radiation poisoning.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

Go back to sleep. You are too smart for all of us.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Yes. For the most part we are a bunch of brain dead idiots. The news looks like Entertainment Tonight a lot of the time. There are more "reality" shows on TV than anything. In 2011 the average person probably cares more about who is going to win American Idol or Dancing With The Stars more than the unrest in the middle east or the crisis in Japan although both of these things will impact every single one of us. Seriously, does anyone really care about the friggin Kardashians?
I truly believe that most Americans regardless of what they say would prefer to stick their heads in the sand and remain completely oblivious to the world around them.

Originally posted by derfreebie
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Thanks for the beginning of a great thread AGAIN, Traveler! F&S with oak leaf clusters.

It's hard to do a cause and effect study backwards to ascertain culpability sometimes...
except our learned scholars and trusted government are so backward to begin with, the
effect is so predictable for the standard motives. This multidimensional farce has pro-
gressed to the point the guys running it actually believe their own buffalo chips.

I always wondered why a lot of reactors were constructed on or near fault lines. That's
like putting your favorite turntable and some great classical next to a railroad track.
Sooner or later, ... it's like putting the Tulane Level 4 biolab 8 feet below sea level.
Smart like a sack of drowned mice, unless you'd like to create an accident on purpose.

Where they put these things is truly amazing. Here in South Florida the Turkey Point Plant at the northern most portion of the Florida Keys is right on top of some very sensitive habitat for wildlife and right next to a major population center, not to mention in a HURRICANE and STORM SURGE ZONE.

Oddly enough when we have a rare cold day or night in the winter and the temperature drops close to freezing warm blooded creatures like Crocodiles, Alligators and Manatees flock to the warm waters of the drainage canal.

You have to wonder though since nuclear fuel really never stops being dangerous what they were thinking when they started building these things all over the place. Was it deliberately done to use them as a way to reduce populations or get people to abandon select cities if need be?

It took Rome about a month to go from a million people to a hundred thousand when the empire fell and the aqueducts no longer were delivering water into the city.

I wonder how long it would take Miami and South Florida to clear out 3 million people if their was a major leak at our reactors?